To kneel or stand--a question about my parish again

[whatevergirl]

Hi everyone;

I am not sure if you recall my thread on my parish having no kneelers–and that I and my family have been kneeling after Communion regardless, etc…

Tonight’s mass (we went to the teen mass)–the deacon spoke about the tenets of mass, and it was quite good. He discussed that as a parish–we choose to stand after Communion in ‘community’ with one another. That if you choose to kneel, that is your choice, but we should stand together–in community.

He also said that ‘The Church’s preferable stance in accepting the holy Eucharist, is by hand–not by mouth. If you would like to take it by mouth, that is fine.’ Huh? I thought that was the other way around, and that if we choose to take it by hand, the RCC is ‘fine’ with that. I take Communion by hand–but I just never heard this explained like this.

So…what would you do? Would you kneel or stand after Communion, and if we kneel–is it irreverant to how this parish worships? We really like this parish–but there just seems to be these nuances (not sure if they are nuances, right?!) that pop up from time to time, that leave me confused. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[kell0618]

Hi everyone;

I am not sure if you recall my thread on my parish having no kneelers–and that I and my family have been kneeling after Communion regardless, etc…

Tonight’s mass (we went to the teen mass)–the deacon spoke about the tenets of mass, and it was quite good. He discussed that as a parish–we choose to stand after Communion in ‘community’ with one another. That if you choose to kneel, that is your choice, but we should stand together–in community.

He also said that ‘The Church’s preferable stance in accepting the holy Eucharist, is by hand–not by mouth. If you would like to take it by mouth, that is fine.’ Huh? I thought that was the other way around, and that if we choose to take it by hand, the RCC is ‘fine’ with that. I take Communion by hand–but I just never heard this explained like this.

So…what would you do? Would you kneel or stand after Communion, and if we kneel–is it irreverant to how this parish worships? We really like this parish–but there just seems to be these nuances (not sure if they are nuances, right?!) that pop up from time to time, that leave me confused. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Do what your heart tells you. If you prefer to kneel, please do so. Personally, I would kneel and would also prayerfully discern finding another parish if this was at all possible. Receiving communion by mouth is the norm and in the hand is permissible. To kneel and/or receive by mouth is approved by the Church.

Peace

 

[brigid12]

As far as receiving Communion, the norm in the US is on the tongue. As far as kneeling after Communion, Cardinal Arinze has specified that either kneeling or standing is totally permissable and up to the individual, that even the bishop of the diocese cannot say that you have to do one or the other. I personally feel strongly drawn to kneel and feel that my reverence and thanksgiving to the Lord takes precedence over the community at that moment.

I would also be on the look-out for another parish. It’s possible that this seeming sign of disobedience (we certainly don’t know what is truly in the priest’s heart!) is a one time thing, however it would seem to me to be indicative of a possible agenda that doesn’t include obedience to Rome or full reverence to Our Lord. For that reason I would keep an atitude of “full alert”, especially if you have children that may be misled. It Is your responsibility to “train them up” as Catholics (as much as possible in today’s world).

 

[whatevergirl]

As far as receiving Communion, the norm in the US is on the tongue. As far as kneeling after Communion, Cardinal Arinze has specified that either kneeling or standing is totally permissable and up to the individual, that even the bishop of the diocese cannot say that you have to do one or the other. I personally feel strongly drawn to kneel and feel that my reverence and thanksgiving to the Lord takes precedence over the community at that moment.

I would also be on the look-out for another parish. It’s possible that this seeming sign of disobedience (we certainly don’t know what is truly in the priest’s heart!) is a one time thing, however it would seem to me to be indicative of a possible agenda that doesn’t include obedience to Rome or full reverence to Our Lord. For that reason I would keep an atitude of “full alert”, especially if you have children that may be misled. It Is your responsibility to “train them up” as Catholics (as much as possible in today’s world).

I appreciate your thoughts and advice…would it be ok to reach out and discuss my thoughts with the priest? The priest has never said anything like this–this was the deacon. I wonder if he made a mistake? But, he spoke at all masses, you would think that the priest would have corrected him. My husband and I told our kids in the car, that really the ‘norm’ is the tongue, but it is permissable, and accepted by Rome that we take it in the hand…not the other way around. My son (who is 15) said he knew that. I can’t explain it, but they are so strict and reverent with so much, but in other things–they miss the mark. I wonder what that’s about.

 

[benedictgal]

I appreciate your thoughts and advice…would it be ok to reach out and discuss my thoughts with the priest? The priest has never said anything like this–this was the deacon. I wonder if he made a mistake? But, he spoke at all masses, you would think that the priest would have corrected him. My husband and I told our kids in the car, that really the ‘norm’ is the tongue, but it is permissable, and accepted by Rome that we take it in the hand…not the other way around. My son (who is 15) said he knew that. I can’t explain it, but they are so strict and reverent with so much, but in other things–they miss the mark. I wonder what that’s about.

First of all, I would take to heart what Cardinal Arinze says:

Does everybody have to stand until the last person has received Holy Communion?

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. ***It is not a law from Rome. They could – but not impose it. ***Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

No ruling from Rome regarding this issue is reason enough to charitably challenge what the deacon said. He needs to be well-informed on the topic before he makes remarks and commits the Church to something that is, frankly, beyond his competency.

Second, the deacon doesn’t really have any substantial proof regarding reception of Holy Communion by hand, especially since the secretary for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has already indicated that this issue needs to be re-visited. He remarked that there are some problems with the reception of Holy Communion in the hand. There is a thread on this forum that goes into more detail regarding what the archbishop said.

 

[japhy]

[The deacon] discussed that as a parish–we choose to stand after Communion in ‘community’ with one another. That if you choose to kneel, that is your choice, but we should stand together–in community.

That sounds like bullying to me, but it could simply be that the parish strives for visible unity in gesture and postures. But it saddens me that there is evidently no kneeling at all at your parish.

He also said that ‘The Church’s preferable stance in accepting the holy Eucharist, is by hand–not by mouth. If you would like to take it by mouth, that is fine.’

He’s backwards on this one. The universal norm of the Church is receiving Communion on the tongue; only in certain places is receiving in the hand allowed (the US happens to be one such place).

So…what would you do? Would you kneel or stand after Communion, and if we kneel–is it irreverant to how this parish worships?

I would certainly talk with the deacon and/or pastor of the parish. Express your confusion, ask for further explanation, and explain your feelings on the matter. Back up your personal feelings with official literature of the Church on the matter, especially if you get bullied.

 

[sheila0405]

When I was a Protestant, my first experience with Mass was at the Catholic Newman Center at my daughter’s university. The Mass was celebrated in a large room with individual chairs. I didn’t even realize that people knelt at all until I joined RCIA three years later and went to Mass in an actual church. Funny. I have been in churches without kneelers. Most people don’t mind if I kneel during the Consecration. Catholics are really more flexible in my own experience than they seem to be in forums such as this. If the lack of kneelers really upsets you, find another parish. But it is proper to stand during communion, and a deep bow of reverence during the Consecration is also acceptable when you are in a place where it is impossible to kneel.

 

[kage_ar]

I’d be looking for a Catholic Parish that follows the Bishops and Rome. It sounds as if you did indeed land in a Parish where the Pastor/staff have an agenda.

BTW - when did Deacon use the term “take” or “recieve” the Eucharist. As you know, we never “take” we recieve Christ.

 

[catholic79]

I say Kneel if you want to - I do and usually their are only about 4 - 6 of us that do.

Unfortunately the request to stand comes from our bishop so any parish we go with in a 2hr drive is the same. We were told that we stand after communion to stand with Christ as a community. We also don’t kneel before communion because according to the bishop, communion takes up to much time waiting for everyone to exit the pews if they are kneeling.

Mary

 

[Brendan]

He also said that ‘The Church’s preferable stance in accepting the holy Eucharist, is by hand–not by mouth. If you would like to take it by mouth, that is fine.’ Huh? I thought that was the other way around, and that if we choose to take it by hand, the RCC is ‘fine’ with that. I take Communion by hand–but I just never heard this explained like this. .

You are correct, the Universal norm is to recieve the Eucharist on the tounge.

A bishop’s conference may request permission to allow Communion to be recieved in the hand, but the majority of the bishops converences in the world have elected NOT to request that permission.

So yes, you may recieve in the hand in the US or Canada, but don’t bother trying in most of Central and South American or Africa. It would be prohibited there.

 

[stmaria]

You are correct, the Universal norm is to recieve the Eucharist on the tounge.

A bishop’s conference may request permission to allow Communion to be recieved in the hand, but the majority of the bishops converences in the world have elected NOT to request that permission.

So yes, you may recieve in the hand in the US or Canada, but don’t bother trying in most of Central and South American or Africa. It would be prohibited there.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Pope Paul VI granted an indult in 1969 to the Bishops of Holland to receive communion in the hand. But that is it only in Holland and not anywhere else… Pope John Paul never issued an indult for the U.S. or Europe or anywhere else. **The Bishops ** granted themselves an indult . No Pope every has.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

As far as receiving Communion, the norm in the US is on the tongue. As far as kneeling after Communion, Cardinal Arinze has specified that either kneeling or standing is totally permissable and up to the individual, that even the bishop of the diocese cannot say that you have to do one or the other. I personally feel strongly drawn to kneel and feel that my reverence and thanksgiving to the Lord takes precedence over the community at that moment.

I would also be on the look-out for another parish. It’s possible that this seeming sign of disobedience (we certainly don’t know what is truly in the priest’s heart!) is a one time thing, however it would seem to me to be indicative of a possible agenda that doesn’t include obedience to Rome or full reverence to Our Lord. For that reason I would keep an atitude of “full alert”, especially if you have children that may be misled. It Is your responsibility to “train them up” as Catholics (as much as possible in today’s world).

Absolutely, positively, 100% UNTRUE.

Now I see an AGENDA HERE!

If the bishop of the diocese determines the communion posture to be standing, in accordance with the GIRM, you should obey that.

What the good Cardinal has said is that you cannot be denied Communion for kneeling. Choose to kneel while you receive and you should receive “catechesis” on the reason for the norm of standing.

Stop “following your heart”, as another poster suggested, and start obeying the Church! Even when her sayings are “hard to endure”, as was the case with a great Rabbi who transformed his religion and established ours.

 

[benedictgal]

Absolutely, positively, 100% UNTRUE.

Now I see an AGENDA HERE!

If the bishop of the diocese determines the communion posture to be standing, in accordance with the GIRM, you should obey that.

What the good Cardinal has said is that you cannot be denied Communion for kneeling. Choose to kneel while you receive and you should receive “catechesis” on the reason for the norm of standing.

Stop “following your heart”, as another poster suggested, and start obeying the Church! Even when her sayings are “hard to endure”, as was the case with a great Rabbi who transformed his religion and established ours.

You have not read what Cardinal Arinze observed, wherein he stated that:

“Numerous inquiries” received by the BCL led Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The BCL Newsletter continues: “In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion” (p. 26. Emphasis added.)

Therefore, to accuse someone of having a hidden agenda without having done sufficient research on the matter is rather unfounded.

Furthermore, during a Q and A session on the same matter, Cardinal Arinze had this to say:

Does everybody have to stand until the last person has received Holy Communion?

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could – but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

Therefore, both of these quoted statements pretty much refute the notion that standing is to be the posture after having received Holy Communion.

 

[japhy]

Pope John Paul never issued an indult for the U.S. or Europe or anywhere else. The Bishops granted themselves an indult. No Pope every has.

I really don’t think the US would have the indult if it was never actually granted by the Pope. The USCCB voted on the matter, sent their vote to Rome, and received approval for the indult.

And Pope Benedict recently granted the indult to Poland – after the entire papacy of John Paul II which never granted the indult to Poland! (It saddens me a bit, and the Rorate caeli blog was quite upset over it.) The document was signed by Francis Cardinal Arinze and Albert Malcom Ranjith, who recently spoke out about reconsidering the value of the practice.

 

[whatevergirl]

That sounds like bullying to me, but it could simply be that the parish strives for visible unity in gesture and postures. But it saddens me that there is evidently no kneeling at all at your parish.

He’s backwards on this one. The universal norm of the Church is receiving Communion on the tongue; only in certain places is receiving in the hand allowed (the US happens to be one such place).

I would certainly talk with the deacon and/or pastor of the parish. Express your confusion, ask for further explanation, and explain your feelings on the matter. Back up your personal feelings with official literature of the Church on the matter, especially if you get bullied.

Thanks for your advice–I think I will do that–talk to the Bishop/priest…I am tentative, as I’m afraid he’ll agree with the deacon.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for your advice–I think I will do that–talk to the Bishop/priest…I am tentative, as I’m afraid he’ll agree with the deacon.

Whatevergirl:

Here is the link to the letter that I quoted:

adoremus.org/Kneeling-CDW-response03.html

This is official, as Cardinal Arinze is repsonding to this letter (on kneeling after receiving Holy Communion) in his capacity as Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Dicispline of the Sacraments. Even though the link is from Adoremus, the matter is legitimate.

I hope this helps.

 

[Brendan]

Stop “following your heart”, as another poster suggested, and start obeying the Church! Even when her sayings are “hard to endure”, as was the case with a great Rabbi who transformed his religion and established ours.

Correct.

The Church has said that it approved the Particular Norm of Standing to recieve the Eucharist but not in such a way as it overrides the UNIVERSAL Norm of kneeling. Both are in effect within the United States.

So one if fully obedient to the Church if one kneels to recieve Communion.

Either is valid, are we are called to recognize that and not get our noses out of joint if someone stands and a parish that normally kneels, or kneels at a parish that normally stands.

 

[cfrancis]

Hi everyone;

I am not sure if you recall my thread on my parish having no kneelers–and that I and my family have been kneeling after Communion regardless, etc…

Tonight’s mass (we went to the teen mass)–the deacon spoke about the tenets of mass, and it was quite good. He discussed that as a parish–we choose to stand after Communion in ‘community’ with one another. That if you choose to kneel, that is your choice, but we should stand together–in community.

Ahhhhh…the bogus “community” argument. As if being in the same Mass worshipping the same Savior in unison isn’t community.
I think what the deacon meant was if you want to be in his commune, you must assimilate

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

You have not read what Cardinal Arinze observed, wherein he stated that:

Therefore, to accuse someone of having a hidden agenda without having done sufficient research on the matter is rather unfounded.

Furthermore, during a Q and A session on the same matter, Cardinal Arinze had this to say:

Therefore, both of these quoted statements pretty much refute the notion that standing is to be the posture after having received Holy Communion.

You are REALLY reading this to interpret your own position, as people ofton do.

What he is saying, based on what you have posted, is pretty clear: A bishop may say “stand”, but if an individual were to not obey that, they cannot be “forced” i.e. they cannot be forbidden Communion. Period. That’s all he’s saying there.

 

[benedictgal]

You are REALLY reading this to interpret your own position, as people ofton do.

What he is saying, based on what you have posted, is pretty clear: A bishop may say “stand”, but if an individual were to not obey that, they cannot be “forced” i.e. they cannot be forbidden Communion. Period. That’s all he’s saying there.

No. Cardinal Arinze spoke rather clearly on this matter. A bishop may propose, but, it is not a requirement. Have you read the letter in question? It must have been an important enough issue for Cardinal George to have written to Cardinal Arinze and for Prefect, in turn, to issue the response he gave.

It would seem that those who support “standing” would be trying to push their own agenda, as opposed to what the Church teaches.