To know and to don't know

[STT]

Here we are discussing a problem related to eternal God. We know that God has knowledge of everything. This knowledge is unique when it comes to creation. Creation however could exist or not. This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not. This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t even see how that logic follows. Even besides that, God’s knowledge is from His act. He knows what He does and can do. He doesn’t have some sixth sense. He is omniscient because He knows Himself, what He wills, and what is made in His eternal act of existence, what He has always willed and what has always been His act has therefore eternally been in His knowledge.

 

[STT]

I don’t even see how that logic follows.

You need to tell me what part of the argument does not follow so we can discuss it further. Otherwise I have to repeat myself.

Even besides that, God’s knowledge is from His act. He knows what He does and can do. He doesn’t have some sixth sense. He is omniscient because He knows Himself, what He wills, and what is made in His eternal act of existence, what He has always willed and what has always been His act has therefore eternally been in His knowledge.

I understand all these but they cannot resolve the contradiction.

 

[Wesrock]

This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not.

Why? God has knowledge of everything that could result from His actions, whether He wills it or not.

This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

Even given all the preceding points, I fail to see how they result in knowing and not knowing at the same time.

 

[STT]

Why?

That follows from previous premise: “Creation however could exist or not.”

God has knowledge of everything that could result from His actions, whether He wills it or not.

That is kind of problematic statement. God knows and acts. His knowledge doesn’t follows from His action.

Even given all the preceding points, I fail to see how they result in knowing and not knowing at the same time.

That follows from this premise: “This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not.”

 

[joeybaggz]

Here we are discussing a problem related to eternal God. We know that God has knowledge of everything. This knowledge is unique when it comes to creation. Creation however could exist or not. This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not. This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

Reminds me of the late comedian,George Carlin’s, question. Is God so powerful that he can make a rock so big that he Himself can’t lift it? Don’t know if I’d even try to answer that, or your question.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Here we are discussing a problem related to eternal God. We know that God has knowledge of everything. This knowledge is unique when it comes to creation. Creation however could exist or not. This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not. This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

So if creation exists or not, then you exist, or not.

Butterfly wings, or not.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Here we are discussing a problem related to eternal God. We know that God has knowledge of everything. This knowledge is unique when it comes to creation. Creation however could exist or not. This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not. This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

It sounds to me like you are saying this:

1. God and his properties are not dependent on anything.
2. God’s knowledge is a property, and therefore not dependent on anything.
3. God has knowledge of the universe.
4. Knowledge of the universe is dependent on whether or not the universe exists & what properties the universe has.
5. God’s knowledge is dependent on something.
6. God’s knowledge is not dependent on anything (2) and dependent on something (5).

 

[ffg]

What we cannot know, is How God functions, works, knows.

To Consider there is a God that doesn’t know is simply to change the definition of God.

It doesn’t take a believer to understand - if God, Then God knows, by definition of ‘God’.

It also doesn’t take a believer to consider - ‘if God, I am not Him’

Thus, I can’t know how God works. Further, if I try to box him into how I can know, I’m doing myself a disservice.

You should see the spaghetti charts some folks have built to TRY to explain God as Trinity.

To try to explain, still comes with our limitations and the limitations of analogies.

 

[Karen107]

Here we are discussing a problem related to eternal God. We know that God has knowledge of everything. This knowledge is unique when it comes to creation. Creation however could exist or not. This means that the knowledge of creation could exist or not. This means that God knows and doesn’t know at the same time which is a contradiction.

Hi there again SST! How’s’ your day going?

God IS the Creator of heaven and earth so knows what is being created, That is never in doubt. The time element is unique to God as God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end so knows no time constraints. God is omnipresent and eternal (no beginning and no end) so time is relevant to us but not God.

Picture this: Me holding a ribbon and up high and twirling it around and around below me. The ribbon would be creation (or our material world) and I am God for this demonstration. God then is holding the world in His hands which is constantly in motion. I then(demonstrating God) could then point my finger at any time within the ribbon interfering with what’s going on whether it is in the beginning, the middle or the end of time,(which has no effect on me) yet keeping the pace going towards it’s final end when it will not be swirling anymore. This demonstrates how God is outside of time and we are in time. God being outside of creation (and time) because God is the Creator.

And all this is possible because the Holy Spirit of God is always affecting us in ways we may not even see in our lifetimes. All things happening because God wills all things to happen for ‘the greater good’, even though God doesn’t interfere with the evil or wrong choices people make. God knows everything but doesn’t necessarily do anything about the choices. But when people bring God into their lives God works through them and with them. . Without Me, You Can Do Nothing” (John 15:5)

Romans 8:28*And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Take care…!

 

[STT]

It sounds to me like you are saying this:

1. God and his properties are not dependent on anything.
2. God’s knowledge is a property, and therefore not dependent on anything.
3. God has knowledge of the universe.
4. Knowledge of the universe is dependent on whether or not the universe exists & what properties the universe has.
5. God’s knowledge is dependent on something.
6. God’s knowledge is not dependent on anything (2) and dependent on something (5).

I think that your first premise is not true when we are dealing with God.

What I am trying to say is different: God’s knowledge is subjected to creation (this is basically (5)). In another word, God has the knowledge of creation if it exists otherwise He doesn’t have that knowledge. Creation could exist or not. Therefore God knows and doesn’t know at the same time.

I hope it is clear now. Let me know.

 

[STT]

What we cannot know, is How God functions, works, knows.

To Consider there is a God that doesn’t know is simply to change the definition of God.

It doesn’t take a believer to understand - if God, Then God knows, by definition of ‘God’.

It also doesn’t take a believer to consider - ‘if God, I am not Him’

Thus, I can’t know how God works. Further, if I try to box him into how I can know, I’m doing myself a disservice.

You should see the spaghetti charts some folks have built to TRY to explain God as Trinity.

To try to explain, still comes with our limitations and the limitations of analogies.

Logic is the only tool we have to know false from true. We are hopeless creature if we accept your point of view about reality including God.

 

[STT]

Hi there again SST! How’s’ your day going?

God IS the Creator of heaven and earth so knows what is being created, That is never in doubt. The time element is unique to God as God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end so knows no time constraints. God is omnipresent and eternal (no beginning and no end) so time is relevant to us but not God.

Picture this: Me holding a ribbon and up high and twirling it around and around below me. The ribbon would be creation (or our material world) and I am God for this demonstration. God then is holding the world in His hands which is constantly in motion. I then(demonstrating God) could then point my finger at any time within the ribbon interfering with what’s going on whether it is in the beginning, the middle or the end of time,(which has no effect on me) yet keeping the pace going towards it’s final end when it will not be swirling anymore. This demonstrates how God is outside of time and we are in time. God being outside of creation (and time) because God is the Creator.

And all this is possible because the Holy Spirit of God is always affecting us in ways we may not even see in our lifetimes. All things happening because God wills all things to happen for ‘the greater good’, even though God doesn’t interfere with the evil or wrong choices people make. God knows everything but doesn’t necessarily do anything about the choices. But when people bring God into their lives God works through them and with them. . Without Me, You Can Do Nothing” (John 15:5)

Romans 8:28*And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Take care…!

Hi Karen,

My day is going well. How about yours?

Unfortunately I don’t see any argument in favor or against the argument presented in OP so I don’t know what to do.

 

[Karen107]

Hi Karen,

My day is going well. How about yours?

Unfortunately I don’t see any argument in favor or against the argument presented in OP so I don’t know what to do.

Well my dear you don’t do anything. What do you need to know?

 

[davidv]

I think that your first premise is not true when we are dealing with God.

Then you are speaking of a god that is not God of all.

What I am trying to say is different: God’s knowledge is subjected to creation (this is basically (5)). In another word, God has the knowledge of creation if it exists otherwise He doesn’t have that knowledge. Creation could exist or not. Therefore God knows and doesn’t know at the same time.

I hope it is clear now. Let me know.

What you have said about knowledge may apply to your god, but not to the one true God.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I think that your first premise is not true when we are dealing with God.

What I am trying to say is different: God’s knowledge is subjected to creation (this is basically (5)). In another word, God has the knowledge of creation if it exists otherwise He doesn’t have that knowledge. Creation could exist or not. Therefore God knows and doesn’t know at the same time.

I hope it is clear now. Let me know.

It’s probably more like the opposite. God is not subject to his creation. He actively causes it’s existence. His creation is dependent on God for its very existence.

Creation is subject to God’s knowledge. If God knows it then it must exist, otherwise it must not exist or be relevant to reality. Of all the the things that exist they exist because God knows them, indeed he is the very cause of their existence. He is existence itself. In him we move and have our being. Who is to say what should or should not exist except God? All of our thoughts God knows. There is nothing that we know or think that God does not already know, even if it is about some fiction that doesn’t exist.

Who is to say what God does or does not know? Who knows the mind of God? How unfathomable is his ways? Our logic is not enough!

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Rom 11)

 

[STT]

It’s probably more like the opposite. God is not subject to his creation. He actively causes it’s existence. His creation is dependent on God for its very existence.

What I said is that God’s knowledge in regard to creation is subjected to creation. How? Think of a person who decide in a specific time. God has to sustain her existence so He should know her act. In this sense God’s knowledge is subject to creation (act of the person).

Creation is subject to God’s knowledge. If God knows it then it must exist, otherwise it must not exist or be relevant to reality. Of all the the things that exist they exist because God knows them, indeed he is the very cause of their existence. He is existence itself. In him we move and have our being. Who is to say what should or should not exist except God? All of our thoughts God knows. There is nothing that we know or think that God does not already know, even if it is about some fiction that doesn’t exist.

I think you misunderstood me. The idea is explained in the previous comment.

Who is to say what God does or does not know? Who knows the mind of God? How unfathomable is his ways? Our logic is not enough!

Logic is the only tool available for finding what is true and what is false.

 

[davidv]

What I said is that God’s knowledge in regard to creation is subjected to creation. How? Think of a person who decide in a specific time. God has to sustain her existence so He should know her act. In this sense God’s knowledge is subject to creation (act of the person).

I think you misunderstood me. The idea is explained in the previous comment.

Logic is the only tool available for finding what is true and what is false.

Truth can also be know from revelation from God.

 

[STT]

Truth can also be know from revelation from God.

I am not sure about that. How you could be sure about the source of revelation, whether it is from God or Satan?

 

[davidv]

I am not sure about that. How you could be sure about the source of revelation, whether it is from God or Satan?

I have faith in a loving God.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

This provides me certainty.