To know more about Orthodoxy!

[jimmy]

In revelation 21:25 We are told that in Heaven “nothing impure will ever enter it”, if upon our deaths we still have some sins of which need to be purified it most surely not be in Heaven.

Now you haven’t given me much to go on with your above statement, but one thing I can conclude is that you are misunderstanding the pope’s words, for there is no way that he is suggesting that purgatory is not as the Church has decreed in the Cathechism. Here is an explanation for the meaning of the “Kingdom of God/Heaven” (taken from New Advent).

…
I think you’ve wrongly concluded as to what the meaning of the word “kingdom” means with regard to Pope Benedict’s book. From your above statement you’ve understood it as something along these lines “He concludes that purification for Heaven is part of the Heaven.” If this is what you believe he (the pope) meant then you are wrong.

I didn’t confuse anything, reread my posts. I already said he isn’t denying purgatory.

Second, P. Benedict isn’t the 1913 Catholic Enyclopedia so quoting that is not going to reveal the theology of P. Benedict.

In revelation 21:25 We are told that in Heaven “nothing impure will ever enter it”, if upon our deaths we still have some sins of which need to be purified it most surely not be in Heaven.

As I said, the divine nature is the fire of purification according to the fathers. Rev.21 mentions nothing about a third place of purification. You are trying to use your deductive logic again which will not work.

 

[John_Larocque]

The Orthodox do not seem to have as developed a theology on Hades/Sheol as the Latins, and some, sadly, have tried to remove praying from the dead from their liturgy. Bishop Hilarion, who seems to have one of the sharpest minds on this issue did an interview where he stated the importance of liturgical primacy against theologians, and not tampering with the lirturgy. He also used the expression “lex orendi, lex credendi”, which was also used by the Patriarch of Constantinople recently with Pope Benedict XVI. And he defended the practice of praying for the dead.

orthodoxeurope.org/print/12/1.aspx

Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.

In my view, liturgical texts are for Orthodox Christians an incontestable doctrinal authority, whose theological irreproachability is second only to Scripture. Liturgical texts are not simply the works of outstanding theologians and poets, but also the fruits of the prayerful experience of those who have attained sanctity and theosis. The theological authority of liturgical texts is, in my opinion, even higher than that of the works of the Fathers of the Church, for not everything in the works of the latter is of equal theological value and not everything has been accepted by the fullness of the Church. Liturgical texts, on the other hand, have been accepted by the whole Church as a “rule of faith” (kanon pisteos), for they have been read and sung everywhere in Orthodox churches over many centuries.

The final stage of this process of liturgical impoverishment and simplification in the Catholic Church was marked by the reforms of Vatican II. In Protestantism, similar reforms were carried out at the very moment of its appearance in history. In both cases, treasures of theological content were sacrificed for the sake of ease of comprehension. As a result, their services ceased to be a school of theology and meditation on God and remained at most a school of piety… Currently many speak of the need to reform Orthodox services in order to make them more understandable and palatable. But if this is to be accomplished by the further removal of canonical liturgical texts and their replacement with works of popular art, I fear that such “reforms” will only bring forth bitter fruits.

This is an amazing interview. He even takes issue with the tampering of Catholic Easter liturgical texts in the name of political correctness.

And there’s a bit more here…
en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/7_5

 

[Religio71]

The Orthodox do not seem to have as developed a theology on Hades/Sheol as the Latins, and some, sadly, have tried to remove praying from the dead from their liturgy. Bishop Hilarion, who seems to have one of the sharpest minds on this issue did an interview where he stated the importance of liturgical primacy against theologians, and not tampering with the lirturgy. He also used the expression “lex orendi, lex credendi”, which was also used by the Patriarch of Constantinople recently with Pope Benedict XVI. And he defended the practice of praying for the dead.

orthodoxeurope.org/print/12/1.aspx

This is an amazing interview. He even takes issue with the tampering of Catholic Easter liturgical texts in the name of political correctness.

And there’s a bit more here…
en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/7_5

Well remember that the Coptic Orthodox aren’t Eastern Orthodox. Also, I think I somewhat agree with him. How is it possible to pray someone out of Hell? As in, what is the basis, Biblical or otherwise, for this belief? Purgatory seems to make much more sense in relation to prayer for the dead in this regard. I thought Hell was eternal.

 

[John_Larocque]

There are two “Hells”. One is a waiting place - Hades or Sheol or Abraham’s Bosom. The other is the traditional hell of Gehenna. The Greek of the New Testament distinguishes between Gehenna and Hades. The Aquinas’ concept of “limbo” for unbaptized children is a rough parallel with Hades but was not Church teaching. The Nicean creed states that Jesus went down to Hades - “he descended to hell” - there are icons in churches where there Hades is emptied and you can see keys. Jesus opened up the door of heaven to those in Hades after the resurrection. What Hilarion is defending here is the liturgical practice of praying for those in Hades.

We need to make some linguistic tweaks to avoid this confusion in English, which is not there in the source language. Hades/hell versus Gehenna/eternal hellfire.

 

[Hesychios]

Well remember that the Coptic Orthodox aren’t Eastern Orthodox. Also, I think I somewhat agree with him. How is it possible to pray someone out of Hell? As in, what is the basis, Biblical or otherwise, for this belief? Purgatory seems to make much more sense in relation to prayer for the dead in this regard. I thought Hell was eternal.

One can always pray for mercy. God is perfect and God is just, but God is Love and God is Mercy, so people who deserve certain punishments might not get them, depending upon whether God is willing to set aside His justice for mercy. That’s what intercessory prayer is all about.

God desires that all might be saved. As a practical matter we don’t expect that, but we can also desire this.

But I think it bears noting that it is awful hard to tell who is in hell anyway. What are we supposed to do write someone off as hopeless and abandon him?

It smacks of pre-judging, and only God can judge. We do not have the right to judge one another, that is strictly God’s prerogative.

So we don’t necessarily pray “Dear God, I know uncle Ed deserves to be in Hell, but please let him out!”

We ourselves are not actually privileged to know who is in hell, no one knows the condition of another’s soul at the last moment. I think only one person was actually declared in hell by council, and that would be Arius. If true, everyone else is up for grabs.

If there is any doubt whatsoever… pray.

 

[Siddhartha]

One can always pray for mercy. God is perfect and God is just, but God is Love and God is Mercy, so people who deserve certain punishments might not get them, depending upon whether God is willing to set aside His justice for mercy. That’s what intercessory prayer is all about.

God desires that all might be saved. As a practical matter we don’t expect that, but we can also desire this.

But I think it bears noting that it is awful hard to tell who is in hell anyway. What are we supposed to do write someone off as hopeless and abandon him?

It smacks of pre-judging, and only God can judge. We do not have the right to judge one another, that is strictly God’s prerogative.

So we don’t necessarily pray “Dear God, I know uncle Ed deserves to be in Hell, but please let him out!”

We ourselves are not actually privileged to know who is in hell, no one knows the condition of another’s soul at the last moment. I think only one person was actually declared in hell by council, and that would be Arius. If true, everyone else is up for grabs.

If there is any doubt whatsoever… pray.

But doesn’t “the real, eternal hell” only begin after the Final Judgement, which hasn’t happened, and so we can pray for all, even Arius?

 

[Religio71]

One can always pray for mercy. God is perfect and God is just, but God is Love and God is Mercy, so people who deserve certain punishments might not get them, depending upon whether God is willing to set aside His justice for mercy. That’s what intercessory prayer is all about.

God desires that all might be saved. As a practical matter we don’t expect that, but we can also desire this.

But I think it bears noting that it is awful hard to tell who is in hell anyway. What are we supposed to do write someone off as hopeless and abandon him?

It smacks of pre-judging, and only God can judge. We do not have the right to judge one another, that is strictly God’s prerogative.

So we don’t necessarily pray “Dear God, I know uncle Ed deserves to be in Hell, but please let him out!”

We ourselves are not actually privileged to know who is in hell, no one knows the condition of another’s soul at the last moment. I think only one person was actually declared in hell by council, and that would be Arius. If true, everyone else is up for grabs.

If there is any doubt whatsoever… pray.

Thank you, that makes sense now!

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

But doesn’t “the real, eternal hell” only begin after the Final Judgement, which hasn’t happened, and so we can pray for all, even Arius?

I don’t see how it could hurt. We all hope for Heaven, and do we believe that our sins are less than his?

 

[josie_L]

I didn’t confuse anything, reread my posts. I already said he isn’t denying purgatory.

What/who do you think the Pope is refering to when he speaks of the Kingdom of God/Heaven? And if he isn’t denying purgatory then what do you believe he is saying about it?

Second, P. Benedict isn’t the 1913 Catholic Enyclopedia so quoting that is not going to reveal the theology of P. Benedict.

By the way, I looked up the book on Amazon, the full title is: Called To Communion: Understanding the Church Today, so I’m curious to know how you managed through reading this book to find support for your understanding of purification after death. My understanding after reading 16 reviews is that the book speaks of the ecclesiology of the church as well as petrine primacy, the renewal of the Church, the holy eucharist . . . etc. Here are some examples of those reviews (parts of it anyways):

The stated goal in the Foreword of offering “a sort of primer of Catholic ecclesiology” to “bring clarity and help in the crisis of ecclesial consciousness” is fulfilled in spades. The nature of the book and the audiences it was directed toward originally does not allow Cardinal Ratzinger to go into the level of detail I would have like to have seen, but nevertheless he is quite successful at giving the reader a good overview of Catholic ecclesiology, particularly as it relates to the roles of bishops, priests, and the nature of true reform in the Church.

The last chapter deals with renewal of the Church, contrasting futile and authentic reform. It is the best chapter in the book and one I’d like to get in the hands of every Catholic or anyone who wants to understand the pope’s authentic view of reform and renewal. A democratic Church that so many long for will never work: “A church based on human resolutions becomes a merely human church. It is reduced to the level of the makeable, of the obvious, of opinion. Opinions replace faith. And in fact, in the self-made formulas of faith with which I am acquainted, the meaning of the words I believe' never signifies anything beyond we opine’” (pp. 139-140). True reform is based on a full faith itself in the freedom that the Lord offers which is our true freedom. Reform begins with each person through personal morality (liberation from sin, not guilt), forgiveness (imaging Jesus), and expiation (purification through pain and suffering in communion with Christ).

His last section, on efforts to renew the Church, is particularly interesting as well. It becomes apparent that our new pope, while rejecting any efforts at democratizing the Church, does believe that the Church is in need of constant renewal. He understands why people may become frustrated with the Church. The goal of renewal should be to “let in the pure light that comes from above.” He states that we need “not a more human, but a more divine Church; then she will also become truly human.”

amazon.com/Called-Communion-Understanding-Church-Today/product-reviews/0898705789/ref=cm_cr_pr_link_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0

By the way the book got such glowing reviews on Amazon I plan to order it today.

As I said, the divine nature is the fire of purification according to the fathers. Rev.21 mentions nothing about a third place of purification. You are trying to use your deductive logic again which will not work.

Faith and reason go hand in hand, so again if nothing impure can enter Heaven then where does purification for sins happen (could it be place called purgatory)?

 

[trophybearer]

Faith and reason go hand in hand, so again if nothing impure can enter Heaven then where does purification for sins happen (could it be place called purgatory)?

Nope. Try again.

 

[The_Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Eucharisted
“Because Orthodox, like the Jews, believe everyone goes to Heaven, so there’s no need to convert souls.”

I think you have confused the Orthodox with the Episcopalians.

 

[jimmy]

What/who do you think the Pope is refering to when he speaks of the Kingdom of God/Heaven? And if he isn’t denying purgatory then what do you believe he is saying about it?

That is irrelevant. You missed the whole purpose of my statement. I am not going to readdress it now though.

Faith and reason go hand in hand, so again if nothing impure can enter Heaven then where does purification for sins happen (could it be place called purgatory)?

Reason can not reveal new dogmas no matter how much you want it to.

As I told you above there are several ways it could happen, none of which imply purgatory. One is the fact that contact with God is purifying. But you want to tell me that because scripture tells you nothing impure shall enter heaven therefore logic tells you that you must expiate the temporal punishment for your sins that were forgiven in this life.

 

[josie_L]

That is irrelevant. You missed the whole purpose of my statement. I am not going to readdress it now though.

If it’s irrelevant then you should never have brought up Pope Benedict’s book, it had absolutely nothing to do with the position you were supporting.

As I told you above there are several ways it could happen, none of which imply purgatory. One is the fact that contact with God is purifying. But you want to tell me that because scripture tells you nothing impure shall enter heaven therefore logic tells you that you must expiate the temporal punishment for your sins that were forgiven in this life.

Scripture tells me that if nothing impure can get into Heaven then nothing impure can get into Heaven, logically then purification by fire is going to be happening somewhere outside of Heaven. Purgatory is outside of Heaven and involves purification by (divine) fire, what is so hard to understand?

 

[w_stewart]

One can always pray for mercy. God is perfect and God is just, but God is Love and God is Mercy, so people who deserve certain punishments might not get them, depending upon whether God is willing to set aside His justice for mercy. That’s what intercessory prayer is all about.

God desires that all might be saved. As a practical matter we don’t expect that, but we can also desire this.

But I think it bears noting that it is awful hard to tell who is in hell anyway. What are we supposed to do write someone off as hopeless and abandon him?

It smacks of pre-judging, and only God can judge. We do not have the right to judge one another, that is strictly God’s prerogative.

So we don’t necessarily pray “Dear God, I know uncle Ed deserves to be in Hell, but please let him out!”

We ourselves are not actually privileged to know who is in hell, no one knows the condition of another’s soul at the last moment. I think only one person was actually declared in hell by council, and that would be Arius. If true, everyone else is up for grabs.

If there is any doubt whatsoever… pray.

But then again, whose souls are you praying? Those in hell? Those in heaven?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

How many differnt kinds of Orthodox churches are there? What are they called and Why are thye better then the Catholic church? I herd it was the first real church and then broke away from the Catholic church because the Catholic church would not do as they were doing. Is that right? Were they realy the first church? Are they Greek? What exactly do they come from and were they first to come to America? Thank You Nancy

 

[Siddhartha]

But then again, whose souls are you praying? Those in hell? Those in heaven?

I think “hell” should be banished from Christian vocabulary, because “hell” is a Germanic word, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Sheol, or hades, is the realm where the dead persist, and the dead may have a foretaste of their ultimate destination while persisting in hades.

The ultimate destination of suffering is “gehenna”. The ultimate destination of joy is paradise.

Both gehenna and paradise are eternal.

According to Orthodox teaching, neither gehenna nor paradise are existing right now. They will exist at the Final Judgement. Until gehenna and paradise arise, the dead are in hades, and hades is not the Final Judgement, and thus one may pray for anyone in hades, because even those in hades who have a foretaste of gehenna, can be “prayed out” and directed towards paradise.

 

[searn77]

From what I have been led to believe, the Orthodox Church doesn’t have a set in stone belief on life after death. A very debatable theory on life after death among the Orthodox is on the aerial toll house concept. Some say this theory is completely false and heretical. Some have called it an “audible icon”. But before you learn the basics on this theory and shrug it off thinking there’s no way it’s true, if you look into the theory deeper than the just the basics you’ll find that there is some sort of truth to it. Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose and St. John Maximovitch I believe have some work about life after death and the toll house concept. But again, this is a highly debatable concept in Orthodoxy and there’s no official Orthodox doctrine on the matter.

I have read on some forum where an Orthodox priest wrote about how he was trying to exercise demons out of some building and when he left, there were still signs of the demon there. So he went back and instead did prayers for the dead and the strange phenomena that was happening at the building stopped. So he believes that there weren’t demons in the building at all but instead it was the deceased. I’m recounting this story from memory but basically the prayers for the dead stopped whatever was happening at that place, not the exorcism.

So my understanding is that we don’t know what exactly happens when we die but prayers for the dead certainly don’t hurt.

 

[josie_L]

I think “hell” should be banished from Christian vocabulary, because “hell” is a Germanic word, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Sheol, or hades, is the realm where the dead persist, and the dead may have a foretaste of their ultimate destination while persisting in hades.

The ultimate destination of suffering is “gehenna”. The ultimate destination of joy is paradise.

Both gehenna and paradise are eternal.

According to Orthodox teaching, neither gehenna nor paradise are existing right now. They will exist at the Final Judgement. Until gehenna and paradise arise, the dead are in hades, and hades is not the Final Judgement, and thus one may pray for anyone in hades, because even those in hades who have a foretaste of gehenna, can be “prayed out” and directed towards paradise.

But didn’t Jesus die so he could save us from the consequences of original sin which included death, i.e., people in Hades/Sheol were waiting for the Messiah to open the gates of Heaven?

 

[Siddhartha]

But didn’t Jesus die so he could save us from the consequences of original sin which included death, i.e., people in Hades/Sheol were waiting for the Messiah to open the gates of Heaven?

Yes, Jesus conquered death, and at the Final Judgement the last decision will be made.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

My first question is answered. But if there is differing view, I am open to it.

My next question is:

How come the Orthodox Churches have not spread the Gospel such as what the Catholic Church has done? Like here in the Philippines, Orthodoxy is virtually inexistent.

I apologize for the wordings of my question but I do not see any better way of stating it. Believe me I do not have any evil intention.

I don’t know much, but I do know that the Orthodox Church spread the Christian Faith all through Africa and Russian (even going so far as creating a written language), China, Japan, Alaska, Washington, Oregon and even California. There currently are Orthodox Missions set up through out the U.S., Mexico, Central/South America, all over Western Europe (they’ve been in Eastern Europe and the Middle East for centuries) and I would be very surprised if the Orthodox Church were not also in the Philippines.

Our Catholic Church is definately every where now too! We’ve been in all of those countries as well! I don’t think there is a place on earth where the Catholic Church does not exist! Although some of the countries need to be re-evangelized as countries like France and England I’ve heard that Church attendance is at an all time low.