To LDS. Why is the LDS church the legitiamte heir to the 1830 Church of Christ?

[RebeccaJ]

Nine years before Joseph Smith’s martyrdom Jesus Christ directed Joseph Smith to establish 2 ruling bodies: The First Presidency (D&C 107:22) and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles (D&C 107:23)

D&C 107:22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood,* three Presiding High Priests***, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

D&C 107:23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

Christ declared that the two bodies are equal in power and authority.

D&C 107:24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

This was reaffirmed two years later.

D&C 112:30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

This says nothing about succession.

With the martyrdom of Joseph Smith there was no First Presidency any more since its head was gone. The Twelve Apostles were the only remaining ruling body with Brigham Young its head. Brigham Young was designated the president of the Twelve Apostles in 1841.

D&C 124:127* I give unto you my servant Brigham Young to be a president over the Twelve. traveling council;*

A talk by Gordon B. Hinckley addressed these matters at a time when a transcript of a Father’s Blessing came in the possession of the LDS Church. See lds.org/general-conference/1981/04/the-joseph-smith-iii-document-and-the-keys-of-the-kingdom?lang=eng

Note this paragraph from that talk…

First, it should be said that the document is a transcript of a blessing. It is not a record of ordination to an office. As a matter of fact, the recipient of the blessing, Joseph Smith III, himself testified in 1893, in the U.S. Circuit Court in Kansas City: “I did not state that I was ordained by my father: I did not make that statement. I was not ordained by my father as his successor: according to my understanding of the word ordain, I was not. I was blessed by him and designated, well in a sense chosen.

Joseph Smith III admitted in 1893 that he was never ordained to lead the LDS Church.

Regarding Priesthood Blessings, the promises made are conditional on the righteousness of the recipient.

I hope this helps…

Yes, the POV of the LDS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Both the Community of Christ and the LDS Church are headed by a President of the Church, a position created and held by Joseph Smith. In the LDS Church, succession to the presidency has been based on apostolic seniority. In the Community of Christ, the president has the power to appoint a successor; if the outgoing president does not appoint a successor, the Council of Twelve Apostles nominates a successor.” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Community_of_Christ_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

The CoC views the anointing of JS III, as JS Jr. designating a successor. The designee is viewed as chosen by the authority that the president possesses, in the same manner that JSJr possessed and demonstrated. This is the method of succession they use and of course view as Smith’s intention.

They don’t view being designated as being ordained. Ordination occurs after the current president dies or retires.

I think it should be noted that the LDS have the same practice where the Quorom of the Twelve selects a new President. The senior of the Twelve is most often the selected but it is not required.

 

[Stephen168]

This is of course, the LDS view which is not shared by other groups that originate in the Latter Day Saint movement. For examples, the Rigdonites recognize Sydney Rigdon as the legitimate successor to Smith, because he was the first counselor to Smith.

Exactly

I hope this helps…

No, it doesn’t
D&C90:6:

And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;…

Frederick Williams was later excommunicated by Joseph Smith 1837 and replaced by Hyrum Smith. At the time of Smith’s death, the lone key holder was Sidney Rigdon. Rigdon’s succession was supported by Emma Smith and William Marks; leader of the Standing Presiding High Council.
D&C107:33:

The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews.

In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent resulting in Smith excommunicating five of the twelve. The Standing Presiding High Council slowly filled the vacancies over three years.

It is clear the Mormon Church at the time of Joseph Smith’s death was led by the First Presidency who held “the keys.”
The Standing Presiding High Council worked with the First Presidency to govern the whole church.
The Traveling Presiding High Council were subordinate to the First Presidency and the Standing High Council. The Traveling Council (Apostles) were responsible for the missionary work of the whole church.

Therefore, the Rigdonite group and the Reorganized group have better claims than the Brighamite group to be the legitimate heirs of the latter-day-saint movement.

 

[gazelam]

Frederick Williams was later excommunicated by Joseph Smith 1837 and replaced by Hyrum Smith. At the time of Smith’s death, the lone key holder was Sidney Rigdon. Rigdon’s succession was supported by Emma Smith and William Marks; leader of the Standing Presiding High Council.

First, I’m glad you agree that there was a legitimate Priesthood Key holder on the Earth in the LDS Church in 1833.

Given that D&C 90 was revealed 11 years before Joseph’s death it seems odd to assert that no one else was given keys during the next 11 years. Especially since the Twelve are equal in authority to the First Presidency. They must have received the same keys too.

 

[Stephen168]

First, I’m glad you agree that there was a legitimate Priesthood Key holder on the Earth in the LDS Church in 1833.

The subject of this thread is the latter-day-saint movement, not Christianity. Therefore when I say, “lone key holder” I’m referring to the beliefs of the latter-day-saint movement, not Christianity.

Given that D&C 90 was revealed 11 years before Joseph’s death it seems odd to assert that no one else was given keys during the next 11 years. Especially since the Twelve are equal in authority to the First Presidency. They must have received the same keys too.

Pope John Paul II held the keys to the Christian kingdom for 27 years. The 14th Dalai Lama has had authority over Tibetan Buddhism for 77 years. So no, I have no reason to believe that something must have happened just because 11 years past. History tells us what did happen: Fredrick Williams was replaced by Hyrum Smith. And D&C107:33 clearly says that the Traveling Twelve were subordinate to the First Presidency. History also tells us, by how the Mormon Church operated under Joseph Smith, that the Standing High Council was senior to the Traveling High Council (the apostles).

 

[adamhovey1988]

The subject of this thread is the latter-day-saint movement, not Christianity. Therefore when I say, “lone key holder” I’m referring to the beliefs of the latter-day-saint movement, not Christianity.

Pope John Paul II held the keys to the Christian kingdom for 27 years. The 14th Dalai Lama has had authority over Tibetan Buddhism for 77 years. So no, I have no reason to believe that something must have happened just because 11 years past. History tells us what did happen: Fredrick Williams was replaced by Hyrum Smith. And D&C107:33 clearly says that the Traveling Twelve were subordinate to the First Presidency. History also tells us, by how the Mormon Church operated under Joseph Smith, that the Standing High Council was senior to the Traveling High Council (the apostles).

Would you bring this argument up to Mormon missionaries?

 

[Stephen168]

Would you bring this argument up to Mormon missionaries?

I believe I’m on their ‘do not call’ list, so I don’t think I would ever have a chance to bring it up to Mormon missionaries.

I have used the history of Mormon apostles and the succession crisis to refute two apostasy claims made by Mormons. 1) Apostles are required to have authority 2) The disunity (schism/protestantism) coming out of Catholicism is a sign of the apostasy.

After my research on those two claims, I believe Sydney Rigdon has the true claim to the church started by Joseph Smith.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I believe I’m on their ‘do not call’ list, so I don’t think I would ever have a chance to bring it up to Mormon missionaries.

I have used the history of Mormon apostles and the succession crisis to refute two apostasy claims made by Mormons. 1) Apostles are required to have authority 2) The disunity (schism/protestantism) coming out of Catholicism is a sign of the apostasy.

After my research on those two claims, I believe Sydney Rigdon has the true claim to the church started by Joseph Smith.

That is very interesting. I didn’t know you could be on a Mormon Do Not Call list. I sometimes see them when I go into town, they are riding on bicycles. The part of me that likes to argue wants to say something but the part of me that knows arguing is not the same as debating tells me that logically I might get too emotional talking to them. Why do you think the mainstream LDS church grew so quickly?

 

[truthseeker32]

Hello,

If we assume the historicity of the BOM why is the LDS church the legitimate heir to the original Church of Christ founded in 1830?  There are many organizations which were founded from 1830 to the present with the BOM as a major part of their scripture.  They each have there claim to being the legitimate continuation of the Church of Christ.  What is the actual basis for the LDS claim?

superwimp,

You ask a great question, one that I myself considered when I first started losing my faith in the LDS church. I suspect that you will not receive a reasonable or falsifiable answer to this question because members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ultimately choose their respective Mormon group on the basis of faith, or on fallacious premises.

The most tempting argument to make is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more legitimate than other Mormon groups because it is the largest. However, if pressed Mormons would certainly conclude that numerical size is not synonymous with truth; otherwise the most true faith would be Roman Catholicism, which has the most adherents (at least on paper) of any religious denomination in the world.

A second difficulty for mainstream Mormons in arguing the case is the reality that, of at least the three largest Mormon groups --LDS, RLDS, and FLDS-- have all maintained and have also discarded aspects of the Mormon faith of Joseph Smith. For instance, the FLDS still practice polygamy, which Smith argued was commanded by God. Furthermore, if one studies why polygamy was abandoned by what became the mainstream LDS church the abandonment of polygamy looks a lot more like a pragmatic move than a divinely inspired one.

Unless a Mormon can demonstrate historically, theologically, or logically that theirs is the true faith, their arguments are circular. In their defense, though, most Mormons aren’t terribly concerned with demonstrating the veracity of their faith to others.

 

[adamhovey1988]

superwimp,

You ask a great question, one that I myself considered when I first started losing my faith in the LDS church. I suspect that you will not receive a reasonable or falsifiable answer to this question because members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ultimately choose their respective Mormon group on the basis of faith, or on fallacious premises.

The most tempting argument to make is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more legitimate than other Mormon groups because it is the largest. However, if pressed Mormons would certainly conclude that numerical size is not synonymous with truth; otherwise the most true faith would be Roman Catholicism, which has the most adherents (at least on paper) of any religious denomination in the world.

A second difficulty for mainstream Mormons in arguing the case is the reality that, of at least the three largest Mormon groups --LDS, RLDS, and FLDS-- have all maintained and have also discarded aspects of the Mormon faith of Joseph Smith. For instance, the FLDS still practice polygamy, which Smith argued was commanded by God. Furthermore, if one studies why polygamy was abandoned by what became the mainstream LDS church the abandonment of polygamy looks a lot more like a pragmatic move than a divinely inspired one.

Unless a Mormon can demonstrate historically, theologically, or logically that theirs is the true faith, their arguments are circular. In their defense, though, most Mormons aren’t terribly concerned with demonstrating the veracity of their faith to others.

Say I were not already Catholic, maybe I didn’t have a religion. I would find the Mormon argument much more convincing if they told me up front what they believed in. From some of the Mormons I have corresponded with via the interweb (thanks Al Gore), that there’s a lot of circular argument.
“Why do you believe Mormonism”?
“Because the Holy Ghost told me”?
“But how do you know it was the Holy Ghost”?
“Because the Holy Ghost tells me it’s true”. I would not find that to be a very good argument. Again, many Mormons are quite capable at dialogue, and I appreciate their intellectual honesty. One of my best friends is Muslim, and I love talking to him about religion. He is respectable and I have found much of what he believes about Christians is based on misunderstanding (he is Saudi). Just a quick thought about Mormonism (and Mormons, correct me if I’m wrong) but can’t the Holy Ghost only be in one place at one time, according the LDS beliefs? Now. How does that work when you have thousands of people claiming they have the same testimony of the Holy Ghost at the same time? I am confused about the logic.

 

[jane_doe]

Just a quick thought about Mormonism (and Mormons, correct me if I’m wrong) but can’t the Holy Ghost only be in one place at one time, according the LDS beliefs? Now. How does that work when you have thousands of people claiming they have the same testimony of the Holy Ghost at the same time? I am confused about the logic.

The Holy Ghost can be in every place simultaneously. Why would you think otherwise?