To live by faith

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It is now 06h05 and I am preparing for Mass while you are all asleep in your part of the world. However, here is something to consider.

Craig started this thread in a quest to discover how we live by faith in the Catholic Church. The thread had a period of “repose” but was later revived I assume as a platform for the continuance of a debate on Sola Scriptura and the Magesterium which had been interrupted on another thread but was shut down on account of having exceeded 1000 postings.

Twice I tried to get back to the topic of the thread – the first time was to discuss the Eucharist because it is the core, the “source and summit” of our Catholic faith but I did not get a satisfactory response because, I think, the topic of SS vs Magesterium was hotting up.

Then I tried again by giving my view of living by faith by listing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy which is based on Matthews 25:31 and central to the practice of our Catholic faith in living out and expressing our faith. Didn’t work! The other topic was still too HOT!

Like Craig, I am also interested in understanding how Protestants live their Faith and their forms of worship. I have attended a few Protestant churches as my one son has belong to several denominations (he won’t explore the Catholic Church as Annie, his wife, is an ex-Catholic and very opposed – he loves Pope Benedict but Annie……) My husband has often remarked that the services in these churches (Jubilee, Harvest, Baptist, Church of England (not Anglican)) were more like a concert and totally different from the worship of the Holy Mass. We respect our son’s choice (regrettably) and when he and his wife went on a business conference in the Caribbean we took care of the children and that included attending their church also.

Could we get back to the topic of this thread for a while? I am still very interested in SS vs M but could we put it on the back burner for a while?

Blessings
Cinette:)
 
Snowy said:
Could the divers be the mystics and the theologians the floaters who look at the pictures and argue among themselves whether that fish seen only from the front has 2 or 3 fins on the back? Just wondering. 🙂

I also wonder why St. Paul went through the trouble of writing such lengthy letters when he could have just said “next time check with Rome”. Was he not let in the whole story?

I haven’t gotten yet to the letters from St. Peter, but I assume that he didn’t fail to communicate to the others such an important point as the fact that he was the boss and all his succesors the final arbiters in all matters of faith.

By golly, I’m sounding like a Protestant! It’s all the fault of theologians! (Kidding.)
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BTW, as far as this thread is concerned, the Catholic mystics and theologians are all wearing scuba gearss and diving from the same boat. Inadmissable evidence for the simple reason of being Catholic.🙂 The mystics even more so, they are trying to communicate revelations long after official biblical revelation has ceased.

And yes, sorry to say this but your tongue in cheek comment about St Paul shows an ignorance of history.
 
Cinette said:
It is now 06h05 and I am preparing for Mass while you are all asleep in your part of the world. However, here is something to consider.

Craig started this thread in a quest to discover how we live by faith in the Catholic Church. The thread had a period of “repose” but was later revived I assume as a platform for the continuance of a debate on Sola Scriptura and the Magesterium which had been interrupted on another thread but was shut down on account of having exceeded 1000 postings.

Twice I tried to get back to the topic of the thread – the first time was to discuss the Eucharist because it is the core, the “source and summit” of our Catholic faith but I did not get a satisfactory response because, I think, the topic of SS vs Magesterium was hotting up.

Then I tried again by giving my view of living by faith by listing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy which is based on Matthews 25:31 and central to the practice of our Catholic faith in living out and expressing our faith. Didn’t work! The other topic was still too HOT!

Like Craig, I am also interested in understanding how Protestants live their Faith and their forms of worship. I have attended a few Protestant churches as my one son has belong to several denominations (he won’t explore the Catholic Church as Annie, his wife, is an ex-Catholic and very opposed – he loves Pope Benedict but Annie……) My husband has often remarked that the services in these churches (Jubilee, Harvest, Baptist, Church of England (not Anglican)) were more like a concert and totally different from the worship of the Holy Mass. We respect our son’s choice (regrettably) and when he and his wife went on a business conference in the Caribbean we took care of the children and that included attending their church also.

Could we get back to the topic of this thread for a while? I am still very interested in SS vs M but could we put it on the back burner for a while?

Blessings
Cinette:)
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That’s a good point. HELP MODERATOR!!!

Has this topic been derailed?:eek:
 
Cinette said:
I see it was Julius Caesar who said that we believe what we want to believe. Gosh, I thought it was I who said that! Experience has taught me this also.

:tiphat: :love:
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Happy are those who have an open and humble heart then who believe (though grudgingly at first) what is True once the intellect has given assent, though this may be contrary to whatthey want to believe.

This is the only way to growth.
 
Lief_Erikson said:
I do carefully consider everything you say.

I’m afraid I, over the last couple days, have been having similar thoughts to those you have, in the discussion. You see, with you, the problem is: They believe the Catholic Magesterium, so could they ever accept anything I say? With me, the problem is: He believes in Sola Scriptura, so could he ever accept anything I say? Because he can believe whatever he wants from the Bible; that’s the nature of Sola Scriptura. He tries to be honest, but in the end, what’s the point of my raising arguments since he always can (and does) come up with an alternate interpretation of any verse I bring up?

😦 I feel similar to how you do. I feel a little . . . helpless . . . in the face of a belief system that can always interpret anything differently from how I interpret it on any issue. The Early Church Fathers encountered just this problem when trying to debate the divinity of Christ or the reality of the Trinity with heretics, from Scripture. The heretics endlessly came up with different, seemingly plausible interpretations of any passage, and were certainly honest in their views. So the Fathers to a large extent gave up on using the Scripture as a principle source of arguing material, and used the argument of apostolic succession instead. For it was not something heretics could “interpret differently,” and thus get around the Fathers’ claims about the nature of the true religion. In this way, they defeated the heresies of the Early Church and maintained unity.

You don’t believe . . . and maybe for some reason don’t want to believe . . . in an infallible Magesterium. So you can always interpret the Bible in ways that dispute it, and that’s what you do. If you chose, you could easily seek out and find many interpretations of the Bible’s verses that outright reject Sola Scriptura.

No matter what passage I bring up to you, there will always be an alternative interpretation you can bring up. And you are seeking those “alternative interpretations,” thus seeking to justify Sola Scriptura, rather than trying to find sensible interpretations of the verses that disagree with Sola Scriptura and confirm the Magesterium, to really see if this is possible. So since you act with the purpose of justifying Sola Scriptura, I hardly see the point anymore :(. For you will always succeed. Anyone can always succeed. I just left a person on another website who was arguing sincerely from Scripture that God wants us to hate people and that every Gentile will perish in eternal fire, God saving only those “seeming” Gentiles who are actually genetic members of the lost 11 tribes of Israel. :eek: It was pure, barbaric insanity I was reading, yet he was bringing up dozens of passages to justify his reading. He sincerely believed it, and was trying to do what he felt was right in God’s eyes.

I brought up clear passages confronting his position, and he reinterpreted them all. It’s mad. That’s why the Fathers abandoned this style of Scripture-based arguing, when confronting heretics over false beliefs. They saw it as pointless. And I feel that since you simply don’t believe in the Magesterium, verses I bring up aren’t likely to convince you. Even though I think they’re clear as daylight.

So you are concerned about the Magesterium on our end, but from my point of view, you have a perfectly impervious position on your end, too, for any verse I bring up to justify the Magesterium or Tradition, or challenge Sola Scriptura, you can and will (if the posts and emails you’ve given on this matter so far are a basis for forming an opinion) interpret differently. That’s been my experience all the way up to this time, discussing many verses with you so far on issues of spiritual authority.

It makes theological dispute feel pointless :(. Since I know you are fully capable of finding a way out of anything I present, on any issue we disagree on.

I suppose that’s similar to your feeling that it’s pointless to dispute with our view, because of the Magesterium.

I do carefully think about what you say, though, Craig. I think everyone here does- the massive posts you’ve received from so many people show how much thought they put into it. And I know you think about what we say.

But the deeper barriers between us are spiritual or psychological, I think. What you are trying to see in the Bible, you’ll see. Therefore the verses themselves, tragically, are less important than the frame of mind we have when approaching them.

😦
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Thank you, Lief - an even-handed and astute summation of the difficulties in continuing this discussion.

I am most grateful, as well, to Snowy for so courageously observing the “stalemate” with penetrating insight.

God bless, In Christ Craig
 
Lief_Erikson said:
You don’t believe . . . and maybe for some reason don’t want to believe . . . in an infallible Magesterium. So you can always interpret the Bible in ways that dispute it, and that’s what you do. **If you chose, you could easily seek out and find many interpretations of the Bible’s verses that outright reject Sola Scriptura. **

No matter what passage I bring up to you, there will always be an alternative interpretation you can bring up. And you are seeking those “alternative interpretations,” thus seeking to justify Sola Scriptura, rather than trying to find sensible interpretations of the verses that disagree with Sola Scriptura and confirm the Magesterium, to really see if this is possible. So since you act with the purpose of justifying Sola Scriptura, I hardly see the point anymore :(. For you will always succeed. Anyone can always succeed. I just left a person on another website who was arguing sincerely from Scripture that God wants us to hate people and that every Gentile will perish in eternal fire, God saving only those “seeming” Gentiles who are actually genetic members of the lost 11 tribes of Israel. :eek: It was pure, barbaric insanity I was reading, yet he was bringing up dozens of passages to justify his reading. He sincerely believed it, and was trying to do what he felt was right in God’s eyes.
them.

😦
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I agree with this. If you came with a premise that Sola Scriptura is correct, then why bother discussing it at all.

Sola Scriptura is a self refuting proposition. It is ascribing to the Bible something it has never claimed to be.

To Craig:
Before we shut down this thread, I would like to ask you if you have given any thought to what I wrote (post no 330) just after you decided you did not want to continue posting some days ago.

I also asked you in another thread about the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the differeng interpretations that the protestant denominations have put forward.

These are all reasonable questions which do not have an answer unless you accept that Christ kept his promise and preserved His Church from the gates of Hell.
 
TO ALL POSTERS,

I must admit that Snowy has had amazing courage, foresight and observation to accurately pin-point the difficulties in continuing this discussion. I salute him and thank him! This is how I was honestly feeling.

I am glad, too, that Lief Erikson has responded to this and in a very even-handed manner has recognised similar difficulties and similar feelings.I accept his assessment as a fair and reasonable overview of the pre-suppositions that both parties bring to the discussion table.

All of these considerations, now bring me to my “second go” at this - but, yes, I feel it is time for me to graciously withdraw from this forum. Please do not feel hurt and please see the sense of it.

When I came on this forum, I only did this as an honest searcher after truth. I have gained much knowledge and information in this quest; I have grown in grace and in my love and esteem for Catholics. I say this with a clear conscience and without hypocrisy.

I had no agenda to pursue on this forum, as you know. However, as time has gone on the “bottom lines” for me became clearer through discussion. Therefore, it is pointless and futile for me to continue this discussion. It would only serve to irritate, annoy and frustrate both you and me.

You have been gracious hosts to me. My comments have been heart-felt and sincere. I thank everyone for their contributions; for the presentation of substantial material; for your kind comments and for your sincerity. I specifically thank Lief Erikson whose analytical ability impressed me from the start; for rawb who provided valuable insights about the Catholic Church; for twb (Tom) who provided much historical information and data on Sacred Tradition; for Benedictus2 who provided the best comments on Predestination I have seen; and latterly, to Snowy who was able to sum up how I was feeling in what became a pre-suppositional “stalemate.” Thank you!

I have no regrets at all. It is just time to move on. I do not think I am “better” than Catholics! O, no - I only humbly say that I think I am “equal” with true Catholics in comprising the CHURCH TRIUMPHANT IN HEAVEN.

May God bless you richly, In Christ Craig
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace this thread and all who post it in it with the most important gifts of the Holy Spirit needed!! May we all be glories to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

I have enjoyed reading this thread, though I rarely post, because I was a convert to and from - from cradle Catholicism, to non-denominational Protestantism, and to (hopefully) faithul Catholicism. From my grossly limited understanding, there are two ways to deduce truths: deductive - if the premises are true, the conclusion is necessarily true - and inductive - if the conclusion is true, then lets figure out what the premises are even and we cannot prove conclusively from first principles but we can produce much supporting evidence. At the start of this thread, I believed in Roman Catholicism magesterium inductively, not deductively.

In my humble opinion, the magisterium is an extremely important in the faith, it is no small matter. For example, in the recent election, there were two presidential candidates: one supported abortion, the other did not. Was abortion an important issue to vote on or was race, poverty, economic recovery, and ending the war in Iraq a more important issue? My decision ended up being based on the fact that many of the Catholic bishops came out on one side of this moral issue - even though not all priests agreed and at least one cardinal was on the other side - otherwise, I would have voted for the other candidate. Recently in California, a proposition was not passed. Some analysis, looking at pre-propsition polling and post-proposition polling, think that the Sunday preaching swayed a significant number of Catholics to change their vote. During the Holocaust, Pope Pius IX saved more Jews than “all the international aid organizations combined.” In fact, the Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism and named himself Eugene, after the Pope, while the Rabbi of Israel wrote a thank-you letter that, to the best of my horribly imperfect knowledge, still sits in the Vatican to this day. He did this through organizaing the extensive Catholic church structure and buildings, but also through such measures as asking the Catholic Latin American countries to waive passport regulations so that Jews could emigrate.

When Catholics pray the Rosary, we rely on apparitions such as the apparition of the Mary at Fatima, Portugal (where a great miracle happened seen by 70,000 people and written about in important newspapers, that to the best of my imperfect knowledge prophesied the Holocaust about 13 years before it happened just like how the apparition of Mary at Kibeho, Rwanda prophesied the Rwandan genocide.) While these apparitions do not have to be believed (though one was apparently caught on television in Egypt and is available online, though I have not check it out myself), they are important because they tell us that the encouragement to pray the most Holy Rosary, is not just to save our souls, although that is a benefit, but to save the souls of others and help world peace. When sin came into the world, it affected us as individuals - that’s why we each die. It also affected society, as a whole, creating societal evils such as poverty, racism, etc. Thus, and this is my poor opinion speaking and no one else should be blamed, a better church is concerned and able to affect not only one’s individual salvation but the salvation of groups of people. Thus, the hierarchy in the Church is a good thing, as it allows the Church’s people, as demonstrated during the Holocaust, to act in a coordinated fashion.

Furthermore, there have been hundreds of supposed apparitions, and the Church hierarchy has determined which of these are true - whether or not individual Catholics listen to these determinations - and has thus insulated faithful Catholics from hearing what the Church has believed to be demonic doctrines. Strangely, miraculous healings are still reported at the potentially demonic apparitions such as Medjugorge, maybe because God honors faith even if it isn’t faith in what he wants us to believe… So I feel protected from false doctrine without needing to be conversant on all matters of faith and morality and the entire Old and New Testament. There truly is a body, with a head, and arms, and legs. The saints, due to their extremely pious lives, appear to be the heart.

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
The Holy Spirit is the most powerful element in matters of Faith which is one of the Gifts of the Spirit. We can present the truth but it is the Holy Spirit’s gift that takes over. God’s time is not our time and his ways not our ways. We, in turn, must yield and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I enjoyed this thread and learned much and I have archived it to revisit whenever I have the urge.

My only regret is that we got off topic and did not get round to discussing the very core of our faith - the Eucharist -

The Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our faith.

Then, of course, there is Matthew 25:31 which is also vital to our Faith.

All these things are directly from Jesus.

While the Magesterium is important it does not compare to the Eucharist itself.

Blessings:)
 
It’s great to hear your impressions, AveSanteMaria. I am glad following the bishops has blessed you so, and it was lovely to hear your words about the Pope and Mary’s help in the Holocaust :).

Here’s the story you were looking for about the televized apparitions from Egypt. In my view, they’re some of the most phenomenal of all time. It was an incredible blessing to me.
zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

Having one Church also promotes unity - we don’t see unity in this thread - every serious disagreement brings about a potential split though we are all Christians - and Christ prayed that we would all be one. During the times of large-scale sickness in the Church, due to impious leaders presiding over pious doctrine, the Church did not fall apart. Rather, great saints were born such as St. Francis of Assisi that contributed to the Church’s healing by being pious themselves, and so the church was renewed. Compare how the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican church have responded to problems of false morality and sickness within the Church. The allegations of the Catholic priest sex scandal caused a purge in the Church, not a split. The issue of homosexuality in the Anglican Church split it, and the faithful side is now considering a return to Rome. Though the Anglicans protest the Pope, it is the existence of that Pope that prevents the false morality in the Catholic Church when it happens (and it if it happened to Judas with Jesus and Saul and Solomon in the Old Testament - it seems to my ignorant understanding - it may well happen again), from splitting and breaking.

As I prayed the most Holy Rosary and read the Bible yesterday, I read of something in Luke that struck me - and I am not a well trained scholar and lack understanding in many things - as important. “Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, (now I will just list names and not sonships), Heli, Matthat, Levi, Melki, Jannai, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, Nahum, Esli, Naggai, Maath, Mattathias, Semein, Josech, Joda, Joanan, Rhesa, Zerubbabel, Shealtiel, Neri, Melki, Addi, Cosam, Elmadam, Er, Joshua, Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi, Simeon, Judah, Joseph, Jonam, Eliakim, Melea, Menna, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Boaz, Salmon, Nahshon, Amminadab, Ram, Hezron, Perez, Judah, Jacob, Issac, Abraham, Terah, Nahor, Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber, Shelah, Cainan, Arphaxad, Shem, Noah, Lamech, Methuselah, Enoch, Jared, Mahalalel, Kenan, Enosh, Seth, Adam, then God.” (Luke 3:23-38)

It made me wonder, when Jesus says, “we do not put new wine into old wineskins.”, he was referring to the fact that he would change the lineage from a human sonship to a sonship by the Holy Spirit, which is in parallel with the opening up the salvation from the Jewish race by birth to the entire human race by baptism through the Holy Spirit. The last chapter in John, when Jesus tells Peter to “Feed my lambs,”**(John 21:15) **happens to Peter after the Ascension, when Jesus will return no more, the appropriate time to pass on the headship of the Church.

We see the apostolic succession continues a sonship that the Roman Catholic Church: St. Peter (32-67), St. Linus (67-76), St. Anacletus (76-88), St. Clement I (88-97), St. Evaristus (97-105), St. Alexander I (105-115), St. Sixtus I (115-125), St. Telephorus (125-136), St. Hyginus, St. Pius I, St. Anicetus, St. Soter, St. Eleutherius, St. Victor I, St. Zephyrinus, St. Calistus I, St. Urban I, St. Pontain, St. Anterus, St. Fabian, St. Cornelius, St. Lucius I, St. Stephen I, St. Sixtus II, St. Dionysius, St. Felix I, St. Eutychian, St. Caius, St. Marcellinus, St. Marcellus I, St. Eusebius, St. Militiades, St. Sylvester I, St. Marcus, St. Julius I, Liberius, St. Damascus I, St. Siricius, St. Anastasius I, St. Innocent I, St. Zosimus, St. Boniface I, St. Celestine I, St. Sixtus III, St. Leo I (the Great), St. Hilarius, St. Simplicius, St. Felix III, St. Gelasius I, Anastasius II, St. Symmachus, St. Hormisadas, St. John I, St. Felix IV (III), Bonfiace II, John II, St. Agapetus I, St. Silverius, Vigilius, Pelagius I, John III, Benedict I, Pelagius II, St. Gregory I (the Great), Sabinian, Boniface III, St. Boniface IV, St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I), Bonfiace V, Honorius I, Severinus, John IV, Theodore I, St. Marin I, St. Eugene I, St. Vitalian, Adeodatus (II), Donus, St. Agatho, St. Leo II, St. Benedict II, John V, Conon, St. Sergius I, John VI, John VII, Sisinnius, Constantine, St. Gregory II, St. Gregory III, St. Zachary, Stephen II, Stephen III, St. Paul I, Stephen IV, Adrian I, St. Leo III, Stephen V, St. Paschal I, Eugene II, Valentine, Gregory IV, Sergius II, St. Leo IV, Benedict III, St. Nicholas I (the Great), Adrian II, John VIII, Marinus I, St. Adrian III, Stephen VI, Formosus, Boniface VI, Stephen VII, Romanus, Theodore II, John IX, Benedict IV, Leo V, Sergius III, Anastaius III, Lando, John X, Leo VI, Stephen VIII, John XI, Leo VII, Stephen IX, Marinus II, Agapetus II, John XII, Leo VIII, Benedict V, John XIII,

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

Benedict VI, Benedict VII, John XIV, John XV, Gregory V, Sylvester II, John XVII, John XVIII, Sergius IV, Benedict VIII, John XIX, Benedict IX, Sylvester III, Benedict IX, Gregory VI, CLement II, Benedict IX, Damascus II, St. Leo IX, Victor II, Stephen X, Nicholas II, Alexander II, St. Gregory VII, Blessed Victor III, Blessed Urban II, Paschal II, Gelasius II, Callistus II, Honorius II, Innocent II, Celestine II, Lucius II, Blessed Eugene III, Anastasius IV, Adrian IV, Alexander III, Lucius III, Urban III, Gregory VIII, Clement III, Celestine III, Innocent III, Honorius III, Gregory IX, Celestine IV, Innocent IV, Alexander IV, Urban IV, Clement IV, Blessed Gregory X, Blessed Innocent V, Adrian V, John XXI, Nicholas III, Martin IV, Honorius IV, Nicholas IV, St. Celestine V, Boniface VIII, Blessed Benedict XI, Clement V, John XXII, Benedict XII, Clement VI, Innocent VI, Blessed Urban V, Gregory XI, Urban VI, Boniface IX, Innocent VII, Gregory XII, Martin V, Eugene IV, Nicholas V, Callistus III, Pius II, Paul II, Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI, Pius III, Julius II, Leo X, Adrian VI, Clement VII, Paul III, Julius III, Marcellus II, Paul IV, Pius IV, St. Pius V, Gregory XIII, Sixtus V, Urban VII, Gregory XIV, Innocent IX, Clement VIII, Leo XI, Paul V, Gregory XV, Urban VIII, Innocent X, Alexander VII, Clement IX, Clement X, Blessed Innocent XI, Alexander VIII, Innocent XII, Clement XI, Innocent XIII, Benedict XIII, Clement XII, Benedict XIV, Clement XIII, Clement XIV, Pius VI, Pius VII, Leo XII, Pius VIII, Gregory XVI, Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, Blessed John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, to His Holiness Benedict XVI
I may be wrong on the lineage - in my impatience, I trusted the first site that I saw that listed the entire lineage (as well as dates, which I stopped including) home.inreach.com/bstanley/popes.htm

Is that not a gift given to the Catholic Church, to trace its succession to the days of Adam and God? And I also have horribly imperfect knowledge, but I suspect that bishops in the Church can also trace their lineage to Adam and God? Is it a miracle that with all these Popes, our doctrine has seeming truth? “We walk by faith and not by sight.”, I may never be able to justify everything as I have devoted my life to understanding all aspects of our Cathechism, and as I said, I do not understand the Holy Trinity.

The only thing that I can conclude, and very possibly my conclusions are incorrect, is that some burden of proof exists to justify not only (1) why we should accept the Magisterium but (2) why we should not accept the Magisterium. As someone pointed out earlier, Martin Luther rejected certain books of the Bible such as Revelations. I mentioned earlier that other books, that can be read, thought to be by Biblical authors exist and are not included in our Canon - Gospel of James, Gospel of Peter, Gospel according to Mary Magdalene. *Why should we not consider these books to be scripture? * Someone at my church once suggested that we do so that we are missing out because **we are not reading these books **. I don’t read them because the Roman Catholic Church did not include them as scripture.

But, from the above posts in this thread by benedictus and others, I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church decided what would be the Canon and what would not in 700 A.D or so (will have to re-read the thread to see what exactly benedictus said, see I am learning too!) How does someone who does not accept the authority of the Catholic Church figure out what is Scripture and what is not?

Also, in my conversion to non-denominationalism, I read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He argued for the historical existence of Jesus Christ using evidence. One of his strongest arguments that we should believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected is that the apostles would not die for someone who did not exist and become resurrected when they would have personal first-hand knowledge of what was going on.

May we be glories to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary!!! May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with those gifts that we most desperately need!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. For the sake of his sorowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

May this thread and ourselves be glories to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! May the Holy Spirit, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, grace us with the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we most desperately need!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

I hope to continue my ignorant attempts at explaining the mysteries of our faith here:

Does a similar logic follow in accepting the interpretation of the early Church Fathers? Since they have first-hand knowledge, should we believe what they definitely held to be true?

And, we have not concluded the discussion of the faith, for the Eucharist is of extreme importance. In our Eucharist, we believe that we have the Body and Blood our dearly Beloved Lord Jesus Christ. Several miracles have occurred surrounding this Eucharist. Sometimes priests offer up Jesus during the Mass, but did not believe. In at least one of those cases, the Eucharist has turned into real body and blood, and has been scientifically analyzed with results published in a medical journal. Oh, if only I could read Italian, then I could read the results or I could communicate with the scholar himself:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729?ordinalpos=28&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Since I cannot, I rely on third-party websites to explain the findings, therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html, among these findings are the fact that the blood type is AB, found in .5 to 1% of the population, while in Palestine and regions of the Middle East it is 14-15% according to Professor Linoli. According to this site, this is the same blood type found in investigation of the Shroud of Turin (which is not an article of faith in the Catholic Church either) in 1978 by NASA scientists. Other miracles such as the Our Lady of Guadalupe miracle exist that draw over 6 million vistors a year. Even McCain touched a rose to Our Lady and carries her miraculous medal and adopted a child from the Mother Teresa orphanage. http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00Omg9Zf7XdJ1/340x.jpg

It is important if our beliefs are correct. I know very little about Islam so these below thoughts can be ingored if they are ignorant. I sometimes think that the radical Islamisists are the devout followers of Islam, trying to obtain virgins in heaven. I think some of our Catholic saints could have been been very different if the precepts of the religion they stuck so closely to were untrue. Some like St. Dominic wanted to be martyrs as well, however, they tried to martyr themselves by preaching at non-believers and did not succeed in getting themselves killed as they conducted themselves well. So important these truths -“humble yourself” “love your enemies, do good to those who hate you” are in changing the actions of a man.

Now, I want to present my favorite readings, which happen to be free online!! True Devotion to Mary and **The Secret of the Rosary ** will be hard to follow or accept without the grace of faith in our Church. However, perhaps Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus will be a gift in illuminating the love of Our Lord on his Cross. It was for me! My understanding of the love of the crucifixion increased exponentially after I read it. And the Cathechism of the Catholic Church can give a definite exposition of what it means officially for a Catholic to live by faith if I as an ignorant believer misguide.

May the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary glorify himself through us!! May we be graced with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, that we most desperately need!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
Craig_Kennedy said:
God bless you, Snowy In Christ Craig
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If I have inspired you as much as you have inspired me, we’re even.

Are you really leaving, just when it looked like I might win the secret bet on who gets to convert you? Darn!

God bless you, Craig Kennedy.
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

As promised, the free online links, and below them, testimonies to why they are worthy of belief. “By their fruits, you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear good fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.”(Matthew 7:16-19) and on discernment, a good lesson for myself as well perhaps in writing to you: “Thefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”(Acts 5:38-39)

As posted before, Polish Saint Maximilian Maria studied philosophy, theology, mathematics, and physics as a college student, before earning a doctorate in philosophy and a doctorate in theology in Rome, while suffering from tuberculosis. He became a priest, changed his name to Maria from Kolbe to venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary, sheltered 2,000 Jews in his friary during the Holocaust, and when taken to the Auschwitz concentration camp offered to die in place of another man since that man had family and he did not as an abstinent fiar. During his time in the cell, he led the men in songs and prayer. Finally, after three weeks of dehydration and starvation, he was injected with carbolic acid and died. He is reported on the Jewish Virtual Library as Righteous Among the Nations. It shows that no matter how dire the situation God can continue to strengthen us. *(This website also provides information on the role of the Catholic church and other churches and groups in the Holocaust) jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Kolbe.html.He founded Slaves of the Immaculata, www.consecration.com. St. Maximilian Maria was greatly inspired by **True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin **

St. Therese of Liseux also consecrated herself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the method of St. Louis Mary de Montfort. She is called by some, “the greatest saint of modern times”. It is reported that she said as died of tuberculosis at 24, “I can suffer no more. For me all suffering is joy.” Her autobiography, The Story of a Soul is beautiful.

Mother Theresa, who I do not think was consecrated in this way, still said, “Stay close to Our Lady, for through her you can do great things for God.” A new book is coming out called, Mother Theresa, *“In the Shadow of Our Lady.” * maximusnewspub.com/motherteresa/pressreleases.htm

St. Louis Mary de Montfort also wrote, The Secret of the Rosary, which explains the origin and name, prayers, mysteries, marvelous effects, proper dispositions, ways to combat distractions and pray the Rosary effectively, and Confraternities (so you can have the benefit of other people’s Rosaries as well) of the Most Holy Rosary. Someone once wrote of this book, *“Possibly the finest book ever written about the Rosary; appeals to all ages. Shows the great spiritual power of the Rosary, which is appreciated by few.” *

Pope John Paul II was also consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the method of St. Louis Mary de Montfort.

St. Padre Pio, who said, “The Rosary is The WEAPON”, said as many as 90 rosaries a day in a special form for which he received ecclesiastical permission. Father Thomas Euteneur, President of Human Life International, cites this in The Rosary Batters the Gates of Hell hli.org/sl_2008-10-03.html

Devoting oneself to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin link: montfort.org.uk/Writings/TrueDev.html
**Secret of the Rosary link: ** montfort.org.uk/Writings/Rosary.html
Preparation for 33 day consecration to the Blessed Virgin link:saintlouisdemontfort.com/consecration.cfm
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus link:en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devotion_to_the_Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus#FIRST_POINT._.E2.80.94_The_ardent_desire_Jesus_Christ_feels_to_be_with_us.
Divine Mercy Chapletewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm
Cathechism of the Catholic Churchvatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. **
 
benedictus2 said:
BTW, as far as this thread is concerned, the Catholic mystics and theologians are all wearing scuba gearss and diving from the same boat. Inadmissable evidence for the simple reason of being Catholic.🙂 The mystics even more so, they are trying to communicate revelations long after official biblical revelation has ceased.

And yes, sorry to say this but your tongue in cheek comment about St Paul shows an ignorance of history.
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I have plenty of revelations myself, just nothing you haven’t heard before.

I could easily argue that the more history a person knows, the less likely they are to be convinced of papal infallibility. I do believe that modern popes are infallible, for the only reason that they are wise and know what to say and what not to remain infallible.

Would you please give me a hand with a question I have about St. Paul’s Interior law, if you have the answer at hand? I’ll do my best to describe for you the thought processes that went along for the ride when I became a Christian. The question is in this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=284588

God bless you, theologians, feel free to crack a joke on simpletons.
 
Snowy said:
I have plenty of revelations myself, just nothing you haven’t heard before.

I could easily argue that the more history a person knows, the less likely they are to be convinced of papal infallibility. I do believe that modern popes are infallible, for the only reason that they are wise and know what to say and what not to remain infallible.

Would you please give me a hand with a question I have about St. Paul’s Interior law, if you have the answer at hand? I’ll do my best to describe for you the thought processes that went along for the ride when I became a Christian. The question is in this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=284588

God bless you, theologians, feel free to crack a joke on simpletons.
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Hi Snowy!

I am a revert so consider myself in the category of Kindergarten Catholic and have learned so much from these forums. You ask good questions and I await the answers and if I should get any inspiration I will also join in.

However, as you might have seen above I long to hear what others feel about the Eucharist. Since you are a recent convert and so is Lief I would be most interested to hear your story. My husband was a life long atheist who converted 3 years ago and now attends Daily Mass and I marvel at his Faith. It inspires me.

So, let’s hear what you have to say.

Blessings
Cinette
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

A tidbit on St. Maximilian Maria and St. Therese of Liseux. St. Therese of Liseux’s father Blessed Louis Martin wanted to be a monk, but was rejected due to lack of knowledge of Latin. Blessed Marie Martin’s (St. Therese of Liseux’s mother) wanted to be a nun but was turned away by the Sister of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul due to respiratory difficulties and headaches. They met in 1858 and married three months later, all her siblings joined the Carmelites as well. St Maximilian Maria’s parents were both Third-Order lay Franciscans. Even the great promoter of the Sacred Heart of Jesus Father Crowley-Boevey was born into the faith, going to daily Mass as an infant with his grandfather.

They really were born into the faith in exceptional ways, weren’t they!! 🙂 😃 ❤️ 🙂 😃 And the Sacred Heart of Jesus born to the most wonderful mother the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! May we be glories to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts we most desperately need!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
AveSantaMaria said:
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

A tidbit on St. Maximilian Maria and St. Therese of Liseux. St. Therese of Liseux’s father Blessed Louis Martin wanted to be a monk, but was rejected due to lack of knowledge of Latin. Blessed Marie Martin’s (St. Therese of Liseux’s mother) wanted to be a nun but was turned away by the Sister of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul due to respiratory difficulties and headaches. They met in 1858 and married three months later, all her siblings joined the Carmelites as well. St Maximilian Maria’s parents were both Third-Order lay Franciscans. Even the great promoter of the Sacred Heart of Jesus Father Crowley-Boevey was born into the faith, going to daily Mass as an infant with his grandfather.

They really were born into the faith in exceptional ways, weren’t they!! 🙂 😃 ❤️ 🙂 😃 And the Sacred Heart of Jesus born to the most wonderful mother the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! May we be glories to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts we most desperately need!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
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Hey slow down AveMariaSanta! My husband tells me that I am ADD because of my energy but YOU discuss about 100 topics in one posting!!! I realise you are full of enthusiasm since you have reverted and I am interested in what you have to say but you must slow down. Otherwise we will also have more information overload.

I haven’t had a chance to read all your postings yet. If you have not already done so you might tell us what made you come back to the Church?

cheers
Cinette:) :love:
 
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