To mediate all Graces - what does it mean?

[BayCityRickL]

There are many issues flying around in this thread. It is difficult to understand, because of the embellishment and exaggeration that the doctrine seems to involve.

From what I can tell, Mary didn’t say “yes” she said “Be it done unto me according to thy word.”

Maybe the angel had asked 50 other Jewish girls the same question, and Mary was the first one to say “be it done unto me according to thy word.” And, so many other people in the lineage of Jesus said “be it done unto me according to thy word” or words to that effect.

There’s somehow the suggestion that God would have been stopped in His tracks if Mary had said “no.” I don’t think God would have been hindered in this way.

I’m not sure why we got to this point of tangled doctrines. On EWTN, Mother Angelica would have given her eye teeth if the Pope had promulgated the doctrine of co-redemptrix (the other doctrine) so that we’d HAVE to believe it, as she so lustily said on several occasions.

Personally, I have focused my spirituality on the ‘great commission’ where Jesus tells the apostles to teach all nations to observe what HE has commanded. I think the emphasis should be on that. That’s what bothers me about the Marian doctrines and dogmas. Some things are more important than others, and people don’t realize that. I don’t think we need more dogmas to believe in, that centuries of Christians before us wouldn’t have even dreamed of.

 

[BayCityRickL]

Yesterday on EWTN I heard a priest talking about St. Joseph. Now, if Mary was a perpetual virgin, then St. Joseph was a virgin, too (the priest said). This is logical, unless you believe the brothers and sisters of Jesus were half-brothers and half-sisters from an earlier marriage of Joseph.

Now, the priest also went on to say that Joseph although not immaculately conceived, as Mary was, had his original sin washed away before he was born.

These are more mystical ideas that have no scriptural basis, except for the imagination of some people. Now, I think these people want to load these ideas on everybody. Where does this imagination stop?

 

[tru_dvotion]

Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee
Approval of Mary as “Co-redemptrix”

By Stephen Hand

TCRNews.com, 10/5/02—Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said he does not think there will be any Church compliance with the request of some Catholics that the Blessed Virgin Mary be named “Co-redemptrix” in the history of salvation. Ratzinger made the comments in an interview with German journalist Peter Seewald which has been published in book form by Ignatius Press entitled God and the World.

Ratzinger said, “ I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

The Cardinal continues: "What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it becomes his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being “with” is realized in her in exemplary fashion.

"But this “with” must not lead us to forget the “first” of Christ: Everything comes from Him, as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him.

“The word ‘Co-redemptrix,’” Ratzinger went on to say, “would obscure this origin. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.” (God and the World, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000 )

Also re: Mary Coredemptrix and the Second Vatican Council:

www.christendom-awake.org/pages/calkins/interview2.htm

 

[bfdtex]

Isn’t the plural of grace…grace?

 

[Antonio_B]

Juxtaposer:

Yeah. What the heck… Now that would be elevating Mary to God. That’s insane! She’s a human being! I don’t care if she is the mother of Jesus. She intercedes for us; that’s it. I’m sure grace comes from that intercession, but not nearly all of it! Pretty soon you’ll be telling me that Mary died on the cross… (that was just for emphasis).

Although you don’t have to believe what we believe, it is expected you have a minimun of respect when adressing issues that for many of us are sacred. I don’t think Jimmy, at any time, implied Mary wasn’t human!

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

Melchior:

This statement is mindblowingly wrong. This is the type of thing that Protestants are protesting and keeps them form the Catholic Church. Somethings are so wrong on their face that it makes all Catholic apologetics against Protestants seem silly.

I seriously want to know how this is not a blasphemous statement?

Mel

You keep telling us the statement is wrong but you don’t tell us “why” you think it is wrong!

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

.

"From what I can tell, Mary didn’t say “yes” she said “Be it done unto me according to thy word.”

Say what? What do you think the word Fiat means, besides the label of a car? Of course she said YES when she said “Be it done unto me according to thy word” The exercise of her free will was essential because God respects our free will and it was no different for Christ’s living chalice, Mary.

Antonio :nope:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

BayCityRickL:

Yesterday on EWTN I heard a priest talking about St. Joseph. Now, if Mary was a perpetual virgin, then St. Joseph was a virgin, too (the priest said). This is logical, unless you believe the brothers and sisters of Jesus were half-brothers and half-sisters from an earlier marriage of Joseph.

Now, the priest also went on to say that Joseph although not immaculately conceived, as Mary was, had his original sin washed away before he was born.

These are more mystical ideas that have no scriptural basis, except for the imagination of some people. Now, I think these people want to load these ideas on everybody. Where does this imagination stop?

Where indeed ? There is also a tradition of belief that St.Joseph was assumed into Heaven (source: New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) article on St. Joseph). I’ve heard of the idea that St.John Baptist was sanctified in the womb - but never of any such notion about St. Joseph. I wonder where that priest got the idea from.​

 

[metal1633]

## Where indeed ? There is also a tradition of belief that St.Joseph was assumed into Heaven (source: New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) article on St. Joseph). I’ve heard of the idea that St.John Baptist was sanctified in the womb - but never of any such notion about St. Joseph. I wonder where that priest got the idea from. ##

As to John the Baptist. He was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb. So yes, he ws sanctified in the womb.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

As to Joseph. He is described as a Good, Obedient and Just Man. I can only assume that he was Just according to the Old Law.

Josephs “Assumption” is a possibility, for Matthew states that many of the Saints of the OT were raised with Christ. None of them are named. Was Joseph one? David? Isaiah? Only a guess.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Antonio B:

Although you don’t have to believe what we believe, it is expected you have a minimun of respect when adressing issues that for many of us are sacred. I don’t think Jimmy, at any time, implied Mary wasn’t human!

Antonio

In what way was I disrespectful? When I said that Mary’s a human being? When I said that she’s the mother of Jesus? Or maybe when I said that she intercedes for us? I did say that some grace comes to us through Mary’s prayer, is that what offended you? Just because I don’t believe that all grace is given to us by Mary doesn’t mean you need to feel offended. With that, know that I wasn’t trying to offend you. I try to be very respectful on these forums. It’s just that it seems to me that in many Catholic’s theology, Mary has taken many of Jesus’ duties as our High Priest. Dispenser of all graces is one of those.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Hey!!

Sure, I’m not Catholic, but I think that I can add some to what has been said by a few other posters on this thread.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (Glories of Mary) says on p. 79 and the following pages of my book, in the section entitled (Mary’s Intercession is Necessary for our Salvation) the following (keep in mind what was said about absolute necessity and moral necessity that was said earlier, this is from the same section):

God is the source of every good and the absolute master of all graces. Also, that Mary is only a creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God. … But we say that Mary is the mediatrix of grace. Whatever she obtains, of course, is gotten through the merits of Christ, and that is why she asks and prays in His Name. Nevertheless, every grace we seek is obtained through her prayer and intercession.

There are many arguments for this in the few pages of this section, and several Church Father quotes to prove what the the Church teaches. It is not merely that “through Mary we received Christ, and through Christ we receive grace, so through Mary in some way we receive grace.” That opinion is actually what Liguori is saying is NOT what the Church teaches, it teaches way more than that, that all graces do indeed come through Mary, because that is what God wills!!

Ok, just a couple arguments for this (From Liguori)

Jeremiah 31:22 For the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man.
(keep in mind the Quadriga and the Church’s hermeneutics of Scriptural interpretation). OK, As no line can be drawn from the center of a circle without passing through the circumference, so no grace proceeds from Jesus, Who is the center of every good thing, without passing through Mary, who compassed Him when she received Him into her womb.

Saint Bonaventure says " since God chose to dwell in Mary’s womb, Mary acquired, so to speak, a jurisdiction over all graces."

and Saint Bernardine of Siena "from the moment the Virgin Mother conceived the Divine Word in her womb, she acquired, as it were, a special claim over the gifts we receive from the Holy Spirit, so much so that no one has ever received any grace except through the hands of Mary.

Wow, that’s pretty strong, but that’s what the Church teaches!!

Also, keep in mind:

Matthew 2:11 - And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary His mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him.

Liguori says that if we were to find Jesus, we must go to Mary, for they are together. Saint Bonaventure says “By this we learn that if we wish to find Jesus, we must first go to Mary.”

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Hesychios:

Second: What is the actual meaning of the term, as close as possible? In other words, what does mediating all Graces actually mean to usl. A poster on another thread was kind enough to attempt to explain this idea to me, but I am looking to clarify what has been said and possibly flesh it out with some examples.

After what I just said in the previous post, I feel that it’s necessary that we try to think outside of the way we are accustomed to thinking of “graces” and God’s bestowing grace on us. It’s somewhat of a mystery, but the Church’s teaching is strong on what Catholics have recourse to in Mary.

You asked for examples. I would recommend, of course, St. Alphonsus Liguori’s book. He gives an example after every section. Examples of people who have been helped in different ways by the Virgin Mary. You don’t have to believe the stories, but whatever, there they are!

I might give as an example, more general, that perseverance is a grace.
Robert Bellarmine says “You must ask for perseverance every day, in order to obtain it every day.”

**Song of Songs 4:4 - Your neck is like David’s tower girt with battlements; A thousand bucklers hang upon it, all the shields of valiant men.

**To all who love her and look for her for help in battle, Mary is like a strong tower surrounded by defenses. She contains all the shields and weapons they need to battle against the forces of evil. (Glories of Mary, p. 37)

But none of that really matters unless you are repentant of your sins and actually desire the grace of perseverance!

If you understand devotion to Mary, you will probably spend some quantity of time in prayer to her, but I suppose you could pray to God in Christ’s name. After all, that is what Mary will herself do. But us being wicked and sinners, perhaps God will more easily be receptive to her prayers than ours. At least, that’s the idea behind beseeching the saints for their prayers.