To Non-Catholics: The Biblical Sacrement of Confession

[jmm08]

Hans A.:

Actually, the afterlife is not bound by “time” as we, being creatures of matter, know it.

Hans A.: I don’t disagree with you (that purgatory is not in “time”).

But aren’t Abraham’s Bosom and the other side of the abyss in sheol in “time”? After all, in Abraham’s Bosom they had to wait for Jesus to get there and set them free. And nobody goes there any more. Just to the wrong side of the abyss. And in sheol, aren’t they waiting (in time) for judgement day?

 

[homer]

Can anyone show me a single place in the Bible where the Apostles heard confessions ???

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Count Chocula:

To say that God knows all Sin before it is comitted is to deny free will isn’t it?

Absolutely not.God knew you before you were even formed. Knowing the sin has nothing to do with our free will.

 

[hlgomez]

Homer,

Restudy your Bible. Here are some passages that you may want to look up. Remember to PRAY that the holy Spirit will guide you. DON"T be closed-minded in your present belief.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must confess our sins to one another (to our confessors), not just privately to God.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

James 5:15 - in this verse we see that sins are forgiven by the elders in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth.

FINALLY, THIS IS THE PUNCHLINE FOR THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILITAION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

Hope you’re enlightned. Ask your guardian angle to guide you as well.

Pio

 

[homer]

hlgomez:

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must confess our sins to one another (to our confessors), not just privately to God.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

James 5:15 - in this verse we see that sins are forgiven by the elders in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth.

FINALLY, THIS IS THE PUNCHLINE FOR THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILITAION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. It didn’t say they confessed to the apostles. I would assume they confessed their sins to God. Where does it say that they confessed their sins to the Apostles? Show me plz.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Did you notice the “one to another” thing or just passed over it !? This doesn’t give an authority to an minority of people to forgive sins. We all must confess our sins one to another, not all must confess our sins to the “priests”. Notice the difference!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. First I thought this was quoted to support my point of view !!! How did you conclude from this verse that we should confess our sins to the apostles ??? It clearly shows that we should confess to God because HE is faithful and just to forgive. Your priest is not faithful and just to forgive sins because all human beings are sinners and only God knows our hearts.

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Again I say, why are you quoting those verses. They do not show that we should confess our sins to the apostles! THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN, I WILL ASSUME THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN BY GOD AND NOT BY/THROUGH A SINNER MAN.

2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. Come on! Does this mean that we should confess our sins to a “priest” ??? How in the name of Jesus do you get these conclusions. It doesn’t say anything about confessing sins to them.

I guess you are familiar with the Catholic doctrine of intention. Well let me explain in case someone doesn’t know about it.
When a person goes to confession, unless the priest in his mind definitely intends to give absolution, the penitent receives no absolution, although the priest says the words of absolution. How, therefore, can a poor penitent ever know that he has received absolution? He cannot! He can never be sure that the priest has absolved him. How unbiblical and wrong is this ???
Well im so happy right now because I AM SURE that when I confess my sins to Jesus THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN!
(By the way, this doctrine also applies to the Catholic Mass).

Finally I want to remind you that my question was: Can anyone show me a single place in the Bible where the Apostles heard confessions ??? You didn’t answer my question, instead you showed me verses from the Bible that do not show the Apostles hearing confessions and they don’t even support your point of view.

 

[hlgomez]

What Ihave shown you are written testimonies of early Christians which was later became part of the Bible. If you want to have your own version of how you see it, I cannot force you to believe catholic doctrine–but who and by what authority did you interpret those that are written? For you always refer to the Bible, Bible, Bible. Where did you get that Bible from in the first place? Who made the Canon of the Bible and how would you believe they are the inspired written word of God??? We Catholics believe that they ar ethe inspired written word of God because the Church says so, not because we say so. I don’t know by what standards do you follow. By your own standard of definition or authority??? Didn’t you know, (I know YOU KNOW IT) that your fellow protestants in almost all cases disagree with your interpretations? That’s why you twist the Scripture to suit your hearing and your own destruction and see how many thousands upon thousands of splinter you’ve got! All claiming to have the correct interpretation! What a shame for your fellow Christians who wants to evangelize to non-Christians!

Finally I want to remind you that my question was: Can anyone show me a single place in the Bible where the Apostles heard confessions ??? You didn’t answer my question, instead you showed me verses from the Bible that do not show the Apostles hearing confessions and they don’t even support your point of view

There is no detailed account to the confessions, like who the person was and who among the apostle he was confessing. There are certain passages in the Bible like that of the thief who confessed his being a sinner to Jesus, the High Priest. The priest in the Church is acting in Christ behalf, so it is not really the priest who forgives but God. And Christ after His resurrection gave that authority to the Apostles to forgive sins, “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive it will be forgiven, …” Are you going to say this authority is for all Christians? A BIG NO. It’s only to the apostles and their successors. Remember, Christ gave that authority to the apostles gathered together, not to any other.
Now, to suit your hearing, do you believe Christ ever slept in his own house? It’s not written in the bible that He slept in His house with Mary. But do you believe it???

Pio

 

[Anglo-catholic]

Hlgomez: You are certainly correct you cannot make Homer believe Catholic doctrine. You say that he can have his own version of the Bible - but Homer gave you the **whole quote ** - and you can read it for yourself. Do you honestly believe that these scriptures would make you go and confess your sins to a priest?

You gave only a citation and told us what it says (or what the RCC says they mean). I prefer to read it for myself.

I do realize not all of us are free to read the scriptures and decide (for ourselves) what they mean.

 

[hlgomez]

You gave only a citation and told us what it says (or what the RCC says they mean). I prefer to read it for myself.

I do realize not all of us are free to read the scriptures and decide (for ourselves) what they mean.

The danger of interpreting it ourselves is very obvious to what we see around us. So many interpretations=different religions/sects. The Church has been given the authority thru the apostles and their successors to interpret scriptures. Not by our ownselves. It is not to mislead us, but to lead us to the truth based on what has been handed down by the apostles themselves. The Catholic Church is not teaching new doctrines, it’s simply the original doctrines handed down by the apostles and when challenged by heretics is expounded thru councils to give light to the revealed truths so that the flock will not be lead into error. The Church is guided by the holy Spirit for she is the Bride of Christ–and we belong to Him for we, the Church, is also His Mystical Body.

Pio

 

[jmm08]

homer:

Can anyone show me a single place in the Bible where the Apostles heard confessions ???

Jesus and an Apostle counts, right?

Look at the Gospel of John 21:15-23. Jesus asks Peter three times “do you love me” – corresponding to the three times Peter denied Christ. It isn’t a perfect example of Roman Catholic confession in a confessional. The situation is before Pentecost. But clearly, Christ is reconciling Peter back to his Apostolic position (even if you take the Protestant view of the situation).

But surely, it must have instructed Peter to serve as a model on how to reconcile sinners to the Church. And Peter is told to “Feed my sheep”, “Tend my sheep”.

Also please look at Isaiah 22:22-23. It is an Old Testament type for Matthew 16:19. And see Revelations 3:7.

I am a Baptist and I am presently waiting for RCIA classes to begin. You may need to spend some effort to fully investigate things for yourself. Be careful sometimes of marginal notes in Protestant Bibles – they aren’t part of the Bible and they are written from the Protestant theological point of view. I am privy to some evidence (that I cannot share) where a Protestant theological point of view is infrequently inappropriately presented instead of the original truth.

Once I am a Roman Catholic, I think I will sin less because I know I will need to face a Priest in a confessional. As a Protestant, I never worried as much about sin. I figured Jesus forgave me and that I’d never hear about it again. Nor have to tell somebody. Maybe I was wrong even from the Protestant point of view. But I look forward to Confession and Penance as helping to purify my life.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

jmm08: Catholic Bibles are Catholic because they also have marginal notes that justify the RCC interpretation of passages also.

You said: But clearly, Christ is reconciling Peter back to his Apostolic position (even if you take the Protestant view of the situation).

I was a Roman Catholic for 50 years and I never recognized Peter’s words “Lord, You know I love you” as a confession of Peter’s sins. There are no footnotes to that effect in my St, Joseph’s New American Catholic Bible either. I hope you did not take it upon yourself to interpret that passage to support confession to a priest :tsktsk: Just being facetious!

*You said: Once I am a Roman Catholic, I think I will sin less because I know I will need to face a Priest in a confessional. *

If you fear the priest more than you fear facing your Creator you are well on your way to being a good Roman Catholic. Again - Just being facetious!

Seriously, whether you confess sins publically to a priest, at Sunday Mass, at your bedside to God - be assured that you are truly and totally forgiven (Psalm 103: 9-12) and relish His grace as that is the only think that will, in fact, make us a new creation.

 

[Hans_A]

jmm08:

Once I am a Roman Catholic, I think I will sin less because I know I will need to face a Priest in a confessional. As a Protestant, I never worried as much about sin. I figured Jesus forgave me and that I’d never hear about it again. Nor have to tell somebody. Maybe I was wrong even from the Protestant point of view. But I look forward to Confession and Penance as helping to purify my life.

Jim08, welcome home. I too, converted from a protestant denomination (Methodist). As a protestant, I was not too concerned about sin neither. It wasn’t until I became Catholic that I saw how much my sin really hurts God. As a protestant, I would say my prayers at night and ask God to forgive me. However, I also thought that all sins were the same, so I would minimize those that are mortal. Now that I am instructed in the one true faith, I am more cognizant of my actions, because I understand that I reject God’s freely given sanctifying grace when I commit mortal sins. As I say the Act of Contrition I almost cry, because I have wronged someone who loves me unconditionally. BTW no matter how many times I go to confession, my voice still quivers as I confess the things I don’t want others to know I did.

Anglo-catholic:

jmm08: Catholic Bibles are Catholic because they also have marginal notes that justify the RCC interpretation of passages also.

Anglo, Catholic bibles are **Catholic ** because they contain **all ** the books of the canon.

In Christ,
Hans

 

[homer]

hlgomez:

Remember, Christ gave that authority to the apostles gathered together, not to any other.

After these things the Lord appointed other SEVENTY also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come… (Luke 10:1)

NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE OF INTENTION THAT I MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS REPLY.

 

[Hans_A]

After these things the Lord appointed other SEVENTY also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come… (Luke 10:1)

Wow, that makes the Catholic Church sure look like the church Jesus instituted. We have the Apostles, who were succeeded by the Bishops. And we have the other seventy that were appointed. Maybe their successors could be the Priests. Just food for thought.

In Christ,
Hans

 

[homer]

Hans A.:

Wow, that makes the Catholic Church sure look like the church Jesus instituted. We have the Apostles, who were succeeded by the Bishops. And we have the other seventy that were appointed. Maybe their successors could be the Priests. Just food for thought.

In Christ,
Hans

Not at all. Jesus didn’t make a hierarchy. Instead, when the apostles were arguing about who is the best among them, you know what was his response. The Catholic church as it is today with its hierarchy cannot be more far from the Church that Jesus wants.

AND AGAIN NOT A SINGLE ANSWER ABOUT THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE OF INTENTION.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

homer:

Not at all. Jesus didn’t make a hierarchy. Instead, when the apostles were arguing about who is the best among them, you know what was his response. The Catholic church as it is today with its hierarchy cannot be more far from the Church that Jesus wants.

AND AGAIN NOT A SINGLE ANSWER ABOUT THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE OF INTENTION.

Do your arguments agree with the Bible, or do they just agree with your interpretation of the Bible? You know, by your belief of interpreting scripture the way you want to, you’re contradicting yourself. You’re saying that you can interpret the Bible any way you see fit, yet you’re constantly disagreeing with the Catholic interpretation, and I know for a fact that there are Christians like you who don’t have the same interpretation of every verse of scripture that you have. So why argue?

homer:

The Catholic church as it is today with its hierarchy cannot be more far from the Church that Jesus wants.

and you expect me to believe that tens of thousands of denominations that all have tens of MILLIONS of interpretations of the Bible is the answer to the Catholic church, or the the church that Christ wanted???



you have got to do WAY better than that. Even if Catholicism was wrong, (which it isn’t, mind), tens of thousands of different sects that all have conflicting interpretations of scripture, and then the people in them all having different ones isn’t the answer! Don’t make me laugh, anyone who would believe that argument on faith is quite a few sandwiches short of a picnic!!!

Vita in Christo!

 

[Jordan32404]

As a Protestant speaking I actually think Confession isn’t that bad. I believe that when you become accountable to another person (basically confession though there’s no absolution or contrition involved, the other person(s) try to help you by praying to stop you from doing that sin again), in Baptist churches we call them accountability groups. I also believe that you should and can confess your sins to God first because sinning hurts your relationship with Him and you need to fix that first.

 

[hlgomez]

Homer,

Have you noticed the keyword “sent”? That proves the Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession. The original apostles sent others who became bishops, and eventually became their successors.

Notice in Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demostrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

In Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof- text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

In Eph 4:11, this verse states that as Christians not everybody can be an apostle, or teacher, or priest. …“And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God…” The result of a church that has no heirarchy?-- It will be a chaos. Everybody else will be his own teacher or apostle, and may choose to argue and cannot settle the problem that may challenge the faith.
Can you imagine, for example, if each nation has has no heirarchy of authority? Common sense will dictate you it’s not right (if you use your common sense well with reason).

Pio

 

[jmm08]

Anglo-catholic:

jmm08: Catholic Bibles are Catholic because they also have marginal notes that justify the RCC interpretation of passages also.

I like the NAB, they also had non-Catholic translators to keep them honest.
And it seems very accurate to me.

You said: But clearly, Christ is reconciling Peter back to his Apostolic position (even if you take the Protestant view of the situation).

I was a Roman Catholic for 50 years and I never recognized Peter’s words “Lord, You know I love you” as a confession of Peter’s sins. There are no footnotes to that effect in my St, Joseph’s New American Catholic Bible either. I hope you did not take it upon yourself to interpret that passage to support confession to a priest :tsktsk: Just being facetious!

Peter was glad to be with the Lord. But unlike ordinary confession, Jesus had to work on Peter to get him to see. After saying three times to Peter, he got the point. And enough unspoken content was understood between the both of them (I consider it very likely that Peter lowered his head and cried when he recognized what Jesus was getting at). I recall a Methodist sermon from my youth (and John Wesley was originally Anglican). So it is even obvious to non-Catholics that Jesus was working on Peter to recognize his Sin.

*You said: Once I am a Roman Catholic, I think I will sin less because I know I will need to face a Priest in a confessional. *

If you fear the priest more than you fear facing your Creator you are well on your way to being a good Roman Catholic. Again - Just being facetious!

Hope so.
But really only what Jesus thinks of us (not what man thinks) is what counts the most.

Proverbs says “The fear of man brings a snare.”
I had a Jewish friend who told me that the original Hebrew word for snare was now being used for land-mines. So think of that.
“The fear of man brings a land-mine.” Wow !
So Catholic bros, don’t let fear of man keep you silent in the confessional. If your conscience is bothering you on some sin and you omit confessing it, that is sin too right?.

Anglo-catholic:

Seriously, whether you confess sins publically to a priest, at Sunday Mass, at your bedside to God - be assured that you are truly and totally forgiven (Psalm 103: 9-12) and relish His grace as that is the only think that will, in fact, make us a new creation.

I still think you are correct on this. Even the Catechism says so (regarding mortal sins, as long as you intend to confess the next time you go to confession and have perfect contrition). But hey, don’t count on what I say. I still haven’t been to a single RCIA class (but I’ve been reading).

By the way, Anglo-catholic, have you read Isaiah 22:21-25. The “Key of the House of David” is an Old Testament type for the “Keys of Saint Peter”. I used to think an alternative way. But those Isaiah verses really narrow down the meaning to the Roman Catholic understanding. The Roman Catholics need to use Isaiah more in backing up their scripture “on this rock I build my Church”.