To Non-Catholics: Why Peter IS the Rock

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Andrew Larkoski:
latisha1903:

from TheBible.net

“In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said to Simon Peter, “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” From this passage it is very obvious that Christ is the builder or founder of the New Testament church and that he calls this church his church. Any church founded by someone other than Christ is not Christ’s church. David, in the Old Testament, announced a great truth when he said, “Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1). In the New Testament we learn that the “house of God is the church of the living God” (1 Timothy 3:15). If the Lord did not build the house (church) those who did build it labored in vain. Jesus declared, “Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up” (Matthew 15:13). No one should be a member of any spiritual household, religious plant, or church which man was responsible for starting. One should be a member of the church Christ established!”

Read Matt. 16:18 a bit more carefully. Peter DOES NOT say “I will build a church on ME.” Christ says “Thou art Peter, and upon THIS ROCK I will build MY church.” Christ built HIS CHURCH on the weak human Simon Peter. (He also gave Peter the power to bind and loose and gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. These powers that Christ gives to Peter make no sense if Christ builds His church on a confession and not on a human who can pass down Christ’s teachings.) Why? Because Christ is God and knows more than we do, and because, as Christ states later in the passage “From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.” For now it can be understood that for Christ’s Church to survive, it must be handed down through the apostles who will "make disciples of all nations . . . "

I read the following paragraph from The Church Was Founded By Jesus And On Him, and this argument is easily refuted with the changing of Simon’s name to Peter, which, in Aramaic, is, itself “Rock”, and thus the rock that Christ refers to is not Peter’s confession of Christ. By the way, does anyone know when this theory that the rock upon which Christ will build His Church on was Peter’s confession began?
again, i’ve stated my stance…you can’t expect someone to just say oh ya know…you’re right…i don’t think you even inquire anything beyond your beliefs…i’ve provided information…and from what you’ve ‘dissected’ it still does not satisfy me to change my beliefs…because still when i read the scripture it says the same…that peter is not the rock…you say he is…ok so now what…i’m confident with i have an you seem to be confident with yours…and what more do you want to come out of that…provide scripture all day…you will still refute it…so our understandings are completly different…just leave it at that…no point of arguing…because i’m sticking behind mines…you can say i don’t want to seek or hear the Truth…but that can go both ways…but of course you’ll never see it that way…because your only looking from your view…anyways good day
 
Catholic4aReasn said:
Each of those points has ALREADY been disputed here.

and i’m satisfied and with my beliefs…its not about seeking out further…and not being open to the Truth…what i’ve provided…fully gives example and scriptual reference…and i’m sticking to it…

i’m sure this debate can be canned now…we’ve all had our say…and been exposed to something new…

God Bless
no hard feelings

latisha
 
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latisha1903:
and i’m satisfied and with my beliefs…its not about seeking out further…and not being open to the Truth…what i’ve provided…fully gives example and scriptual reference…and i’m sticking to it…

i’m sure this debate can be canned now…we’ve all had our say…and been exposed to something new…

God Bless
no hard feelings

latisha
It isn’t about being exposed to something new. It is about uncovering the truth—which we believe is objective (the same from person to person) and knowable.

Justin
 
Latisha is a typical Campbellite, both ignorant of church history and history in general, and stubbornly so.

In blunt statement she just does not care about the truth, as she has amply demonstrated here, her mind is made up and she does not care to hear the truth.

BTW I am a former member of the “church of Christ” she is currently a member of.

This is a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, not matter how loudly she says that it is REALLY the one-and-only church that Christ has. It began in 1906, less than one hundred years ago.

The cofC was not founded by Alexander Campbell, it was founded many years after Mr. Campbell’s death by dissadent schismatic members, who were leaving the Christian Church (disciples of Christ) which is the denomination that Campbell and Barton Stone really founded, and which fully accepts the fact that it is a denomination.

The issues which led to the “cofC’s” departure were:
  1. Instrumental music in church, and
  2. The shared funding of missionaries.
If the “cofC” is really the one and only church containing the only Christians then:

There were no Christians and no “true church” before 1906 which was when the “church of Christ” was invented by human beings.

Latisha< if the Catholic church (the REAL church of Christ) was invented by Innocent the third in the year 606 AD, there where did Innocent the first and second come from?
 
The “church of Christ” is based on the same principal as “The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints” (the mormons).

That is the “total apostacy” and “restoration” dichotomy. Both bodies beleive that Christianity “apostacised” itself completely out of existence until they “restored” it back into existance. Both beleive themselves to be the only “true” church.

Yes there was no Christianity or Christians for over 16 centuries of the Christian era.

So which one of the “one and only true churches of Christ” do you belong to, you know that there are several.

The Independent Christian Churches and churches of Christ who do use instrumental music?

The Grace-Centered churches of Christ who often use instrumental music in their worship.

The “main stream” csofC who do not use musical instruments, but do have sunday school classes.

The “anti” csofC who do not have Sunday School classes.

The “anti” csofC who are opposed to church funding of “institutions” such as retirement centers, orphanages, and universities.

The “one-cupper” csofC who use a common cup for their “Lord’s Supper” (grape juice illegitamtly substituted for wine) instead of tiny shot glasses.

The “International or Boston hurches of Christ” who are generally accepted as a full fledged controlling cult, by everyone except themselves.

Let’s see that’s seven different sects, all claiming to be THE one-and-only church, all of which consider the others “non-Christian” and refuse fellowship to the others.
 
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boppysbud:
Latisha is a typical Campbellite, both ignorant of church history and history in general, and stubbornly so.

In blunt statement she just does not care about the truth, as she has amply demonstrated here, her mind is made up and she does not care to hear the truth.

BTW I am a former member of the “church of Christ” she is currently a member of.

This is a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, not matter how loudly she says that it is REALLY the one-and-only church that Christ has. It began in 1906, less than one hundred years ago.

The cofC was not founded by Alexander Campbell, it was founded many years after Mr. Campbell’s death by dissadent schismatic members, who were leaving the Christian Church (disciples of Christ) which is the denomination that Campbell and Barton Stone really founded, and which fully accepts the fact that it is a denomination.

The issues which led to the “cofC’s” departure were:
  1. Instrumental music in church, and
  2. The shared funding of missionaries.
If the “cofC” is really the one and only church containing the only Christians then:

There were no Christians and no “true church” before 1906 which was when the “church of Christ” was invented by human beings.

Latisha< if the Catholic church (the REAL church of Christ) was invented by Innocent the third in the year 606 AD, there where did Innocent the first and second come from?
call it what you will. you have obviously proven my point on why there is not point in debating any of the issues any further. honestly would you want to be in this hostile environment as you have just demonstrated? its odd how how you feel you can speak for me, just because you feel you might have come from the same background as I. but again, my faith is not weakened because of your very un-Christian like post, or attitude towards the situation.
thats just a great way to gain someone’s attention. attack them, and criticize what they believe, yet expect them to whole heartly think, oh this is exactly what i want to be a part of, where people accept you, and those tolerant and patience…and i throw in the sarcasam to make a point. and you say that my mind is made up, yes it is, as is yours, but i’m the one that is at fault? if you could look at the situation from a different perspective you wouldn’t be so quick to judge. because judge is what you have done. i’m not looking for hte benefit of the doubt, but i’m not looking for the outward attack that i don’t deserve. your past experience is your past experience. but again, all is well. God Bless.

the ‘holier than thou’ act never worked well on getting people to listen further…
 
Someone once said “Seek and ye shall find.” It is in questioning our faith that we grow toward God, not away from God. latisha1903, if you are fully content with the “Church of Christ”, there is no way that I, or anyone here, can convert you to the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit does that. All we can do is provide the resources and facts (and pray!) for you to search out the Truth. However, if you FULLY believe (with absolutely no doubt) that the Church of Christ is in fact THE Church of Christ then what we are attempting to do here is futile. Christ came not to condemn, but to open the Gates of Heaven to all of us. I sincerely pray that none of us on this thread have seemingly “condemned you”, but instead, lovingly, offered the Catholic interpretation of Scripture and Tradition, which we believe, no, know, is the Truth.

One last thought, on an earlier post, you stated that “History is written by winners.” I would completely agree. Why, then, would the Catholic Church be a “winner” for 2000 years?

I’ll pray that you may seek out the Truth and never be “content” with what knowledge of your faith you have.

God bless.
 
as far as the statement about 'winner’s it was simply a metephor…nothing more…you find ‘history’ that states the CoC was founded by man…and i find ‘history’ that states the rcc was founded by man…and we could go back and forth all day. and for what…and i’m content with my faith in the fact that i will continue to do what i know is right…as will you…i have what i know to be the Truth and you have what you know to be the Truth…and just leave it as is…always in your mind you see yourself as being right…ok…we are all entitled to that…so i’m not seeking to have sympathy…but respect mine as i respect yours…this could go on for days…but no need…not because i’m not open to ‘seeking the Truth’ because i could say the same about everyone else…but because its now pointless…God Bless
 
I had sworn of this thread because I was convinced it was fruitless. I have succombed to the temptation of giving it one more try.

Latisha
The reason people are getting frustrated is that you are not at all hearing what they are saying. Let me boil this down to just one point and get rid of all the extras. Let me also preface it by saying of course I don’t expect you to drop your beliefs because of a couple posts on a forum thread, so that is not my intent.

Your first post in this thread was regarding the original topic of Peter being/not being the rock. You argued that the Greek language analysis showed he was not.

I posted an explanation that Christ didn’t speak Greek, but rather Aramaic and how this refuted your explanation. I then simply asked if you agreed that Jesus spoke Aramaic. You stated that didn’t know and needed to ask your uncle, but you never addressed it.

The fact that you are unaware of the language issue and seemingly uninterested in resolving it for your own understanding leads people to believe you are not really interested in the truth.

It SHOULD bother you that you don’t know the answer to this question. If I am lying, you should find that out and slap me down. If I am not, then you are wrong and Peter is the rock. IF you are wrong about that, what else might you be wrong about? Stating that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe simply doesn’t get around this

All I’ll ask you to do is find out the answer to that question I posed, and once you find it, think about what it means.

In love and charity through our Savior, Christ Jesus.
 
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SteveG:
I had sworn of this thread because I was convinced it was fruitless. I have succombed to the temptation of giving it one more try.

Latisha
The reason people are getting frustrated is that you are not at all hearing what they are saying. Let me boil this down to just one point and get rid of all the extras. Let me also preface it by saying of course I don’t expect you to drop your beliefs because of a couple posts on a forum thread, so that is not my intent.

Your first post in this thread was regarding the original topic of Peter being/not being the rock. You argued that the Greek language analysis showed he was not.

I posted an explanation that Christ didn’t speak Greek, but rather Aramaic and how this refuted your explanation. I then simply asked if you agreed that Jesus spoke Aramaic. You stated that didn’t know and needed to ask your uncle, but you never addressed it.

The fact that you are unaware of the language issue and seemingly uninterested in resolving it for your own understanding leads people to believe you are not really interested in the truth.

It SHOULD bother you that you don’t know the answer to this question. If I am lying, you should find that out and slap me down. If I am not, then you are wrong and Peter is the rock. IF you are wrong about that, what else might you be wrong about? Stating that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe simply doesn’t get around this

All I’ll ask you to do is find out the answer to that question I posed, and once you find it, think about what it means.

In love and charity through our Savior, Christ Jesus.
i AM hearing what they are saying! and reading it in full detail…and responding…and in the reponse to Christ speaking in aramaic, i posted this article that i fully support and believe gives a summary of what i am trying to say…

christiancourier.com/penpoints/peterRock.htm

did anyone take the time to read that? or the other links posted? i doubt it. because every arugment you throw is indeed answered in this article…

that above addresses the language isssue as well…
and i quote

It is an assumption that Jesus spoke Aramaic on this occasion. Certainly that is the most likely possibility, but the truth is, as Robert Gundry has shown, most Palestineans of the first century were tri-lingual, speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (pp. 404-408). So we cannot be positive what dialect Jesus spoke on this occasion.
Be that as it may, when the Lord changed Simon’s name to Peter, he employed a Hellenized form of the term that is masculine in gender, kephas (see Jn. 1:42). T.H. Robinson conceded that while there is only one word in Aramaic (and it is feminine), when a man’s name is used, it can take a masculine form (p. 141; see also Foster, p. 715).
Additionally, the fact is, Matthew’s Gospel record was written in Greek; and the Greek clearly reflects a distinction between the masculine petros, and the feminine petra. So the argument stands.
This point is alleged to be negated, however, by the supposition that Matthew originally penned his Gospel account in Aramaic, and so the Greek edition is merely a later translation. This view is based mostly upon a quotation from Papias (c. A.D. 135), as preserved by Eusebius (3.39). But Papias’ statement is quite ambiguous, and as Carson notes, few scholars today accept this view. He contends that “much evidence suggests that [Matthew] was first composed in Greek” (pp. 11-12). Hiebert has observed that there are certain “linguistic features” of Matthew’s record which “indicate that it was originally written in Greek” (p. 53; emp. WJ).
 
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latisha1903:
as far as the statement about 'winner’s it was simply a metephor…nothing more…you find ‘history’ that states the CoC was founded by man…and i find ‘history’ that states the rcc was founded by man…and we could go back and forth all day. and for what…and i’m content with my faith in the fact that i will continue to do what i know is right…as will you…i have what i know to be the Truth and you have what you know to be the Truth…and just leave it as is…always in your mind you see yourself as being right…ok…we are all entitled to that…so i’m not seeking to have sympathy…but respect mine as i respect yours…this could go on for days…but no need…not because i’m not open to ‘seeking the Truth’ because i could say the same about everyone else…but because its now pointless…God Bless
Latisha, I understand your frustration and our catholic brothers and sisters. I think we spend to much time and im justas guilty. Satan knows how to get to us,doesnt he? It comes to a point that neither will admit that they are wrong. Sometimes its religious pride. The fact is that it cause strife amoungst christians,and begins to tear down the body of Christ. Let it go and move on in your christian walk. And it is a walk,but by the grace of God as christians we will be on that road. GOD BLESS…
 
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latisha1903:
It is an assumption that Jesus spoke Aramaic on this occasion. Certainly that is the most likely possibility, but the truth is, as Robert Gundry has shown, most Palestineans of the first century were tri-lingual, speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (pp. 404-408). So we cannot be positive what dialect Jesus spoke on this occasion.
This author sounds WAY to smart to REALLY think that there’s any real possibility that Jesus and his apostles sat around having conversations in Greek.

 
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latisha1903:
Code:
[christiancourier.com/penpoints/peterRock.htm](http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/peterRock.htm)
Frankly, I suspect that most links cited on this forum go unread. If you can’t make the arguments on your own, few people are going to take the time to read every linked referenced in a thread. It’s prohibited by the amount of time it takes. Additionally, the post you put the link in didn’t say anything about this article being a response to the Aramaic argument. Were we supposed to guess? I have read every word you have written carefully as well, but will fully admit that I haven’t read every article you linked as I simply don’t have the time to do so.
Code:
In any event, I did read this and have the following comments.
*** 1**.** It does not matter that many Protestant scholars (e.g., Alford, Bloomfield, Cullman, Carson, etc.) identify the “rock” as Peter. The issue is, what does the actual evidence indicate? In addition, it is one thing to suggest that Peter was the rock (mistakenly, I believe); it is quite another to argue that papal authority necessarily results from that alleged identification. For example, Bloomfield, who is cited by Conway (p. 148) in this regard, says “this cannot be supposed to give Peter any supremacy over the rest of the apostles (p. 79; see also Mundle, pp. 384ff).***
It does not matter that many Protestant scholars identify the “rock” as Peter? Wow! Cullman, Carson, N.T. Wright, these are widely recognized as the heavy weights of Protestant biblical scholarship, and it doesn’t matter what they have concluded. I must assume they made the conclusions on the evidence (as Jackson says he did), as I find it highly unlikely they accepted it because Catholcis do.

He is right in one thing. Peter being the Rock doesn’t lead to the papacy. But that is not the issue at hand. The issue is whether Peter is the Rock in the statement, nothing more. To bring the Papacy in at this point is dishonest. He would have been more honest to say, ‘Hey, you know what. Peter probably was the rock, but I still don’t accept the Papacy because x, y and z.’

*** 2. It is an assumption that Jesus spoke Aramaic on this occasion. Certainly that is the most likely possibility, but the truth is, as Robert Gundry has shown, most Palestineans of the first century were tri-lingual, speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (pp. 404-408). So we cannot be positive what dialect Jesus spoke on this occasion.
Be that as it may, when the Lord changed Simon’s name to Peter, he employed a Hellenized form of the term that is masculine in gender, kephas (see Jn. 1:42). T.H. Robinson conceded that while there is only one word in Aramaic (and it is feminine), when a man’s name is used, it can take a masculine form (p. 141; see also Foster, p. 715).

** * He admits that Christ probably did speak Aramaic, and the gospels otherwise show this. On the cross in MT 27:46 Christ cries out ‘Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?’ This is known to be Aramaic and is an untranslated version of the Lords words preserved by MT. Likewise, John 1:42 says…He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” Here we have the Aramaic name being clearly preserved for us. Jesus actually names him Cephas, not Peter, so we know the name was not given in Greek. Sorry, but Mr. Jackson simply overlooked this.
** …Continued…**
 
*** 3. Additionally, the fact is, Matthew’s Gospel record was written in Greek; and the Greek clearly reflects a distinction between the masculine petros, and the feminine petra. So the argument stands.
This point is alleged to be negated, however, by the supposition that Matthew originally penned his Gospel account in Aramaic, and so the Greek edition is merely a later translation. This view is based mostly upon a quotation from Papias (c. A.D. 135), as preserved by Eusebius (3.39). But Papias’ statement is quite ambiguous, and as Carson notes, few scholars today accept this view. He contends that “much evidence suggests that [Matthew] was first composed in Greek” (pp. 11-12). Hiebert has observed that there are certain “linguistic features” of Matthew’s record which “indicate that it was originally written in Greek” (p. 53; emp. WJ).

This point is utterly irrelavent. The argument does NOT rest on the supposition that Matthew originally penned the gospels in Aramaic. It rests on whether Jesus SPOKE Aramaic, which even the auther of the article seems to tacitly admit.
***
4. While there is obviously a word-play between “Peter” and “rock,” Mounce noted, with considerable force, that had Jesus intended to affirm clearly that Peter was to be the “foundation” of the church, he simply could have said: “And upon you I will build my church” (p. 162; emp. WJ).

*** This is plain silly. I could equally make the argument that had Christ meant Peter’s confession, he would have said ‘And upon your confession I will build my church.’ If he had meant that it was on Himself (Christ), he could have said ‘and upon Myself I will build my church’. Regardless of what he ‘could have’ said, he did say, ‘upon this rock I will build my church.’, so by necessity, we must determine what ‘rock’ meant in this context. This is a nonsensical argument.

*** 5. Frequently the “church fathers” are appealed to as proof that the early Christians believed that Peter was the “rock” upon which the church was founded. However, as Dreyer and Weller have shown, “Only sixteen out of the eighty-four early church fathers believed that the Lord referred to Peter when He said ‘this rock’“ (p. 42).***
Is he saying that he can find the other of the eighty four early fathers who believed it was something else? Or is he saying the other early fathers were silent on this issue. He’d have to explain what he mean

*** 6. If this conversation between Christ and Peter was intended to establish the fact that the church was to be built upon the apostle himself (with the implication of successors), it is strange indeed that Mark, who produced his Gospel record from the vantagepoint of Peter (see Eusebius, 2.15), totally omits the exchange (see Mk. 8:27-30).***
No comment on this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the analysis of MT.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Latisha, I understand your frustration and our catholic brothers and sisters. I think we spend to much time and im justas guilty. Satan knows how to get to us,doesnt he? It comes to a point that neither will admit that they are wrong. Sometimes its religious pride. The fact is that it cause strife amoungst christians,and begins to tear down the body of Christ. Let it go and move on in your christian walk. And it is a walk,but by the grace of God as christians we will be on that road. GOD BLESS…
Yet someone is right, and someone is wrong. And it is an insult to God and to the truth to pretend that it is otherwise for the sake of unity. The issues which divide us are not minor, but reflect on the meaning and appropriation of salvation-thus it is real human souls at stake. Your comments ‘sound’ nice, but in the real world where we fight the Christian fight, they ring hollow.

Your brother in Christ Jesus
 
Latisha, you are still ignoring my points which are factual.

Which of the seven (one and only) “churches of Christ” ( I put “church of Christ” in qoutes because it isn’t and cant’ be the "church of Christ, it came around 20 centuries too late) do you belong too?

If the (one and only) Church Christ has didn’t exist before 1906 what happened to the billions of human beings who lived and died before it was invented by dissadent members of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)?

What happens to non-southeners ( the “church of Christ” still hardly exists at all outside of the South)?

Is everyone born before 1906 going to hell? Are non-southeners who have never heard of the self-named “Churches of Christ” going to hell?

And of course we belonged to the same denomination, your links make that abundantly clear. I was taught exactly the same stuff growing up in the “church of Christ” as your links espouse.
 
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SteveG:
Yet someone is right, and someone is wrong. And it is an insult to God and to the truth to pretend that it is otherwise for the sake of unity. The issues which divide us are not minor, but reflect on the meaning and appropriation of salvation-thus it is real human souls at stake. Your comments ‘sound’ nice, but in the real world where we fight the Christian fight, they ring hollow.

Your brother in Christ Jesus
In the real world the problem is out there. You want to put your christian fight to work. Just head outside where the world desperately needs Jesus Christ. Unity is working together bringing the lost world to Jesus Christ. :confused:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
In the real world the problem is out there. You want to put your christian fight to work. Just head outside where the world desperately needs Jesus Christ. Unity is working together bringing the lost world to Jesus Christ. :confused:
With that I can’t disagree. And I try to do such each moment of my life. But amongst ourselves, these very important differences should be talked about and resolved. But as far as the lost world needing Jesus and our responsibility to bring him to them, I can only say AMEN!👍
 
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