To our Jewish friends - some questions about the coming Messiah

[petra22]

Belief in the building of what is called the “Third Temple” based on Ezekiel’s vision, has been held in coming with the coming of a personal messiah, especially since the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE by the Romans, and especially by Orthodox Jews. However Reform and Reconstructionist Jews do not hold such as belief.

I’ve heard this term before but what does it mean, “personal messiah???”

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I could be wrong about this but wasn’t Ezekiel written before the construction of the 2nd temple? If so, why is it thought to apply to a 3rd temple?

You are correct in that the prophecy was written before the construction of the 2nd temple. But currently, today, since no temple stands in Jerusalem, the prophecy is now thought to apply to what is commonly referred to as the “Third Temple.”

This is not, of course, how it was thought of between the eras of its composition and the construction of Herod’s Temple. There is some debate as to how the prophecy was read during that time and whether or not it was believed to refer to a literal Temple to be built by the Messiah or not.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I didn’t want to comment on this because I know for a fact this will be the new “OP” of the thread, haha.

I’ll keep it short. If we do not accept Scripture alone, other traditions sneak in. Jesus shot down the traditions that the highest educated Jews; let’s not kid ourselves, Pharisees were extremely intelligent and yet their traditions were criticized.

Now we have the Talmud, as you stated is based on some oral traditions that are found nowhere in Orthodox Catholic beliefs. I don’t want to debate this here though.

My comments are meant to explain how these religions understand the Scriptures in relation to themselves, which was your question.

You are correct that you should start another thread if you wish to discuss the other subject. But the questions about Jews, their understanding of the Scriptures in reference to the Messiah require an understanding of things on their terms. I was not challenging you to a debate about your beliefs in doing so.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I’ve heard this term before but what does it mean, “personal messiah???”

Some Jews no longer believe the Messiah will be a “person.” There are some Jews who hold that the prophecies regarding the Messiah were personifications of a religious ideology and are fulfilled when the ideology is practiced, either individually or as a society.

When someone believes along these lines it is said that they do not believe in a “personal” messiah. They believe in an ideological one instead.

 

[AbideWithMe]

You’re doing just great, actually. As I’ve mentioned before some people won’t attempt to try to see things from a different perspective and therefore give up trying to learn about something new altogether.

Correct me if I am wrong but most Evangelical subscribe to a theology that basically holds that “true” religion is based on what is written in the inspired Scriptures. The Bible is the authority, and what is believed is usually based and sometimes limited to what is inscribed therein. This is like a “cart before the horse” scenario that can cause one to ask questions that don’t actually apply.

To illustrate: Judaism, like Catholicism, was already a functioning system of worship with faithful members and a liturgy before and during the production of their Scripture texts and their collection or canonizations. Abraham did not have a Bible to base his religion on. He had an ongoing theophany, one which the entire nation of Israel ended up having through Moses at the foot of Mount Sinai. Their religion came first, and faithful followers of that religion composed their Scriptures.

Orthodox Christians and Catholics hold a similar view of Christianity. Their religion, while including a strong faith in the Hebrew Scriptures, was based on what they believed was an epiphany. The texts that later became the New Testament are a reflection of Christianity, not its basis, which was a Jesus of Nazareth. By the time the epistles and gospels were composed the movement already was on its way, and a functioning liturgy and creeds existed for a century before the question of canonization of these texts even arose.

While not arguing the validity of the Evangelical or Fundamentalist stand, at least for Jews and Catholics the Scriptures are a product of the religious systems that produced them, indivisible from the practices and traditions that formed them.

That being case, one doesn’t ask what authority holy writ has on a given subject in Judaism. Jews accept holy writ because it comes from the religion revealed to them from Heaven. The religion itself is “inspired,” to use the Christian term, therefore its message, which includes holy writ, is generally accepted as inviolate.

Were one to require that the texts of Judaism be subjected to the demands of some sola scriptura-believing Christians would also demand that Judaism be incapable of existing in any true form until all its Scriptural texts were composed. This would not be possible for without the Jews to write them there would be no Scriptures to begin with.

True religion cannot be based on the Scriptures alone for the Scriptures would not have been composed without the truth being practiced to begin with.

Delson–Well, you did ask to be corrected if you’re wrong….

Like Donald, I know going into this post would derail the thread, so I won’t do it, other than to say you’re displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Sola Scriptura, such that you’re setting up a straw man.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Delson–Well, you did ask to be corrected if you’re wrong….

Like Donald, I know going into this post would derail the thread, so I won’t do it, other than to say you’re displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Sola Scriptura, such that you’re setting up a straw man.

I meant no disrespect, nor do I wish to argue the subject with you. I used to share the same beliefs in sola scripture that most Evangelicals do today. In fact that is all that I preached when I was a non-Catholic missionary for 11 years. I spent up to 12 hours a day on average teaching nothing but.

This discussion about sola scriptura should belong to a different thread. So this is the last comment I will make about it here. This discussion is about Jewish understandings regarding the Messiah.

If we cannot stay on subject which is a simple request, how can people put faith in any of what we write here on this thread regarding weightier subjects?–Luke 16:10.

 

[AbideWithMe]

If we cannot stay on subject which is a simple request, how can people put faith in any of what we write here on this thread regarding weightier subjects?–Luke 16:10.

I agree. I wish more posters had your respect for staying on topic on threads.