To Protestants, a discussion of Eph 3:10 and 1 Tim 3:15

[Denimguy]

Deducing that you mean the RCC, by “infallible”, is “unerring” and “flawless” the intended definition?

I’m curious to hear the taught perception (not personal opinion, thank you though) of the RCC infallibility in the light of the victims of sexual (including homosexual) abuse by RCC priests (they are the legal torch-holders of the RCC, right?) over the decades.
nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/files-show-cardinal-roger-mahony-covered-up-sex-abuse.html

Everyone in the world, after Adam & Eve, is born sinners. To stand firm on “We are totally & always correct about everything” is to build your house upon sand.

Trust in Christ, friends, walk in His ways, and know you’re free from God’s condemnation (Rom 8:1) by His divine gifting.

Nice Red Herring!

 

[TRH1292]

Deducing that you mean the RCC, by “infallible”, is “unerring” and “flawless” the intended definition?

I’m curious to hear the taught perception (not personal opinion, thank you though) of the RCC infallibility in the light of the victims of sexual (including homosexual) abuse by RCC priests (they are the legal torch-holders of the RCC, right?) over the decades.
nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/files-show-cardinal-roger-mahony-covered-up-sex-abuse.html

Everyone in the world, after Adam & Eve, is born sinners. To stand firm on “We are totally & always correct about everything” is to build your house upon sand.

Trust in Christ, friends, walk in His ways, and know you’re free from God’s condemnation (Rom 8:1) by His divine gifting.

What do you even mean? Taught perception?

I’m curious if you posted that because you actually had something constructive to say, or merely as a opportunity to try and slander the Church.

1. Scroll up and read once again the definition of infallibility. You will see it has to do with teaching, not them being a sinner or not.
2. Individual priests have never been infallible. And if they were, that would not stop them from sinning if they made a choice to do that.
3. Even if Cardinal Mahoney did that and much worse, what does that actually prove?That Cardinal Mahoney was unfaithful to his calling. Just as Judas was unfaithful to his calling of being an apostle.

If you want morally perfect people or morally perfect leaders, then you won’t find it in the Catholic Church, and not in the PCA either.

If you want a solid ground of doctrine, you will find it in the Catholic Church, and you certainly won’t find it in the PCA or the twenty or so other reformed denominations in america.

 

[De_Maria]

So you are saying the catholic church has never done anything they have had to apologize for later on.

The Catholic Church has apologized for the sinful actions of her people. We can gather two things from this.

1. The Catholic Church recognizes the authority she has over her people. This is evident by the fact that she can apologize for their actions.

In contrast, this is totally unknown in the Protestant world. Not one of your pastors considers himself responsible for the actions of people he has never met. Not one of your institutions either. Therefore, they would never apologize for the actions of all their members.

1. We can look at anything which Catholics have ever done and see that their sins go against the teachings of the Catholic Church. They don’t commit the sins because of the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Whereas, Protestants commit many sinful actions BECAUSE of the teachings of their denominations. Take divorce and remarriage; contraception and abortion for example.

Most likly you will respond with no the individuals that committed them were wrong. And if i respond with but the teachings that i have later been modified or the restrictions that were changed were infallible?

Provide an example of even one Catholic Teaching which was wrong and then modified.

Then you will undoubtedly respond saying those were found to be lacking in basis and corrected another failing of man.

No. I’ll explain to you how your understanding of the doctrine was wrong because languages change, the meaning of words change and many other reasons. But the absolute meaning of God’s word does not change and the absolute meaning of God’s word is that upon which the Catholic Doctrine is based.

So in the end the church is infallible but when it does make a mistake it wasn’t the church itself we can blame that on humans.

You’ve got it. See, you’ve got a sort of atheist mindset. When the atheist looks at Christ, he sees only the human part of Christ. He denies the Divine.

When you look at Christ’s body, the Church, you see only the human aspect of the Church. You deny the Divine.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Of course, the Pope is also a sinner. He has to go to confession, like regular people. But what I asked was if Peter and Paul were infallible, and you say they were?

I don’t think he understands the word infallible because he says that “sinners are infallible”. He said the same in a reply to me.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?​

I am a “Protestant” (I really don’t like that word; I am a Christian) and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

Only God can have ALL wisdom, and only He can be infallible. We are not God, we are the Church… and we are human sinners, all of us.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another. As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him. God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!

---

I’m happy for your membership

If you are not protesting then by all means don’t call yourself a Protestor .

So when Jesus tells us in Matthew that when our brother sins against us, to tell him first and if he doesn’t listen to bring fellow brethren and talk to him again, and if he still doesn’t listen, then we need to take it to the Church.

Where is this Church?

 

[kmcarl56]

Ok.

That is a contradiction. Sinners, by definition, have fallen from grace and are therefore NOT infallible. Or maybe that is what you meant to say.

Yes, that is what I meant to say, and I did retract it in a following post.
“Are you rejecting the Teaching of Eph 3:10 which says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God? Then, who wrote the Scriptures? Was it man or God?”

I was taught that men wrote the Bible only through the inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
"2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

That verse says that God inspired men to preach the Word of God. It also says that this is from where the prophecy of Scripture came. God inspired men to preach. Men wrote down what they were inspired to preach.

We are not God. But God works through His people.

Exactly! But non-Catholic Christians shift all the time."

Yes, unfortunately that is true. However, I believe that some Catholics shift from the Truth at times as well. I do not want to get into a blame game. All I want is unity for all Christians here on earth, which is the True Church, the one Jesus died for.

"That is the purpose of His Church. That is why He left us the Church. That we may be united within the Church:
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

You need to take an extra step and become a member of His true Church:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

I apologize, De Maria, that is what I am trying to do here… to gain a more complete knowledge of Christianity, including Catholicism. Not that I doubt anything written in the Bible, for it is the Absolute Truth. I just question how people use the words in the Bible sometimes to justify their own beliefs or understanding of those words. Some people tend to take a very small segment to make a point when, in fact, it is out of context and therefore has an entirely different meaning.

I revere the Pope, Bishops, and all other clergy who spread the Good News of salvation through Christ. Because some people teach things that are so obviously misconstrued does not mean that I have to agree with them. I am simply trying to gain knowledge and understanding, and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank you, dear friend in Christ, for giving your perspective and ideas.

I am coming closer to God by being here on this site.

 

[De_Maria]

Deducing that you mean the RCC, by “infallible”, is “unerring” and “flawless” the intended definition?

Infallible in doctrine. Unerring in Teaching of Doctrine. A good example of the infallibility of the Church is the New Testament which you hold in your hand. All the authors of that document were Catholics. Everyone of them.

I’m curious to hear the taught perception (not personal opinion, thank you though) of the RCC infallibility in the light of the victims of sexual (including homosexual) abuse by RCC priests (they are the legal torch-holders of the RCC, right?) over the decades.
nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/files-show-cardinal-roger-mahony-covered-up-sex-abuse.html

As far as I know, the Church has not issued an statement directly concerning the infallibility of the Church vis a vis the sins of certain priests. So, you’re stuck with our explanations.

And the explanation is that any Catholic who sins, sins in spite of the Teaching of the Church. Not because of it.

Everyone in the world, after Adam & Eve, is born sinners.

Wrong. They are born with a propensity. But no one is a sinner who is not guilty of sin. In other words, until a person commits a sin, he is not a sinner. yet.

Original sin is not a sin which is committed. It is the condition of being born with the propensity to sin.

To stand firm on “We are totally & always correct about everything” is to build your house upon sand.

On the contrary, it is to recognize that the Church is the Teacher of the Wisdom of God in accordance with the Scripture which the Church wrote herself.

Trust in Christ, friends,

That is precisely why we obey the Church. It is Christ who said:
Matthew 18:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

walk in His ways,

That is the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

and know you’re free from God’s condemnation (Rom 8:1) by His divine gifting.

That is a misunderstanding of the verse. St. Paul also wrote
1 Corinthians 4:2-5
King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

And also:
1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

and also:
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So, let us take care to divide the Word of God rightly. Not according to the traditions of men who interpret the Scriptures in a manner which will lead them to destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[sealoch]

The Catholic Church has apologized for the sinful actions of her people. We can gather two things from this.

1. The Catholic Church recognizes the authority she has over her people. This is evident by the fact that she can apologize for their actions.

In contrast, this is totally unknown in the Protestant world. Not one of your pastors considers himself responsible for the actions of people he has never met. Not one of your institutions either. Therefore, they would never apologize for the actions of all their members.

1. We can look at anything which Catholics have ever done and see that their sins go against the teachings of the Catholic Church. They don’t commit the sins because of the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Whereas, Protestants commit many sinful actions BECAUSE of the teachings of their denominations. Take divorce and remarriage; contraception and abortion for example.

Provide an example of even one Catholic Teaching which was wrong and then modified.

No. I’ll explain to you how your understanding of the doctrine was wrong because languages change, the meaning of words change and many other reasons. But the absolute meaning of God’s word does not change and the absolute meaning of God’s word is that upon which the Catholic Doctrine is based.

You’ve got it. See, you’ve got a sort of atheist mindset. When the atheist looks at Christ, he sees only the human part of Christ. He denies the Divine.

When you look at Christ’s body, the Church, you see only the human aspect of the Church. You deny the Divine.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Never changed any doctrine: chriscastaldo.com/2012/11/01/the-disputable-indisputable-fact/

I do deny the divine on this at least we can agree.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Were the apostles Peter and Paul ever infallible?

The word to use with Peter and Paul and the other apostles is that they were inspired. Of course infallibility is a subset of inspiration. Inspiration is of a higher category than infallibility.

It is our faith that the apostles were inspired.

 

[De_Maria]

Never changed any doctrine: chriscastaldo.com/2012/11/01/the-disputable-indisputable-fact/

I don’t have time to join another thread. Is there something from that thread which you would like to bring here.

I do deny the divine on this at least we can agree.

As I thought. But I believe the Scripture which says that the Church is the Body of Christ and therefore human and Divine.

Hebrews 12:18-24
King James Version (KJV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[kmcarl56]

---

I’m happy for your membership

If you are not protesting then by all means don’t call yourself a Protestor .

So when Jesus tells us in Matthew that when our brother sins against us, to tell him first and if he doesn’t listen to bring fellow brethren and talk to him again, and if he still doesn’t listen, then we need to take it to the Church.

Where is this Church?

*First point: * That is exactly why I do not like calling myself a Protestant. I prefer a simple, “I am a Christian.” – Period.

Se**cond point: I agree; however, sometimes you can talk to another person until you are blue in the face and they will not even listen to you, let alone agree with you. That is when you pray fervently for them, and take it to the Church so that multitudes can pray for that poor lost soul.

*Third point: * The Church is here on earth, and is comprised of all of those believing and following Jesus, both Jews and Gentiles. When Jesus returns, he will reign over His kingdom of His followers.

The quote at the bottom of your post seems to say it all, don’t you think? I love it! That’s my point exactly.

 

[sealoch]

I don’t have time to join another thread. Is there something from that thread which you would like to bring here.

As I thought. But I believe the Scripture which says that the Church is the Body of Christ and therefore human and Divine.

Hebrews 12:18-24
King James Version (KJV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

You don’t have time. Why would you take time to look at what you requested.
Quoting scriptures is less proof and more self confirmation.

 

[chero23]

When I said, “I am a “Protestant” …and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.” I meant to say that we are fallible. We all fall short of perfection.

So are you saying that the Pope is incapable of speaking a word from his chair that is wrong according to the Lord? That, to me, would be saying that the Pope is infallible and thus perfect in all he does and says. To say that is putting the Pope on the same spiritual level as God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. He is not. He is human. He is a sinner. He can be wrong. If he can never be wrong then why are we all having so much discussion about what is right or wrong in the Church (and I mean all the people of the Church).

Jesus did leave Peter in charge of His Church, but even Peter surely made mistakes at times. Since Jesus arose and went to be seated next to God in Heaven, there has never been perfection on the earth. We are all sinners. We are the Church. So we are all fallible…even those in Rome.

Exactly he left Peter in charge, he left his post in charge. He (Jesus) picked 12 me to lead the Church, who were under Peter. These 12 men were not Jewish Priests they were 12 fishermen. You have to understand that men, just like you and I will commit errors, mistakes and sins. But when your in charge of the seat of Peter like the popes are, they will be guided by the Holy Spirit, thus, whenever they speak, remember this, when they speak from the Chair (ex Cathedra) they will speak with truth. Im reminded of a verse, its Luke 22:31-32 were Jesus tells Peter;
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

You see the post (chair) of Peter will always have God praying for it, and the Holy Spirit will always guide it.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, that is what I meant to say, and I did retract it in a following post.

I saw that.

I was taught that men wrote the Bible only through the inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

That would be correct. Were you also taught that those men wrote the Bible infallibly? And if holy men could write the Scriptures infallibly then, why can’t they write doctrine infallibly today? Does God no longer communicate through men?

Yes, unfortunately that is true. However, I believe that some Catholics shift from the Truth at times as well.

I agree. But not the Church because Jesus promised that the Church would not fail (Matt 16:18-19)

I do not want to get into a blame game.

I don’t either.

All I want is unity for all Christians here on earth, which is the True Church, the one Jesus died for.

We all want that. But how can there be unity if one persons believes one thing and I another?

God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

Absolutely! But we are sinful, as you agreed. Therefore God gave us infallible help by the Church. And He demonstrated the infallibility of the Church when He inspired her to write the New Testament.

I apologize, De Maria, that is what I am trying to do here… to gain a more complete knowledge of Christianity, including Catholicism. Not that I doubt anything written in the Bible, for it is the Absolute Truth. I just question how people use the words in the Bible sometimes to justify their own beliefs or understanding of those words. Some people tend to take a very small segment to make a point when, in fact, it is out of context and therefore has an entirely different meaning.

Nothing to be sorry about. The fact is that Protestants and Catholics read the Scripture differently.

Since you are moving towards Catholicism, you might want to read
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

Note how radically different this is from the Protestant perspective. When a Protestant approaches the Scripture, he thinks he discovers within the Scripture the meaning of the words.

But not so the Catholic. The Catholic is immersed in the Word of God before he opens a Bible. The Catholic finds in the Bible the explanation of the Doctrines he already believes and obeys.

How can that be?

Jesus Christ did not write the New Testament. He established Traditions and commanded the Church to Teach His Traditions. The New Testament was written based upon these Teachings.

There is no discovery here. There is confirmation of the Traditions which Jesus Christ passed down through the Church.

The Protestants always read the Scripture out of context. They discarded the context of the Word of God when they set aside Tradition and sought to understand the Scriptures alone.

I revere the Pope, Bishops, and all other clergy who spread the Good News of salvation through Christ. Because some people teach things that are so obviously misconstrued does not mean that I have to agree with them. I am simply trying to gain knowledge and understanding, and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank you, dear friend in Christ, for giving your perspective and ideas.

I am coming closer to God by being here on this site.

Thank God and thank you for your kind (name removed by moderator)ut.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[chero23]

So you are saying the catholic church has never done anything they have had to apologize for later on. Most likly you will respond with no the individuals that committed them were wrong. And if i respond with but the teachings that i have later been modified or the restrictions that were changed were infallible? Then you will undoubtedly respond saying those were found to be lacking in basis and corrected another failing of man.
So in the end the church is infallible but when it does make a mistake it wasn’t the church itself we can blame that on humans.

Im Catholic, and I sin. But that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church sinned. You have to understand bc guy X, guy y, and guy z sinned and their Catholic, that the Catholic Church is wrong. The Catholic Church has said since day 1 to today, and until Jesus returns. Were made up of sinners and saints, unfortunately more sinners than saints. But bc you see a group of Catholics that are doing something wrong you mark the Whole Catholic Church as wrong.

 

[kmcarl56]

*Even is yourself and kmcarl and others wish to set aside the Bishop of Rome as head of the universal Church and rely on Scripture, you are still left the problem or reconciling what Scripture says - and how the protestant communions have developed.
Scripture describes how issues are to be handled…and unity maintained (Elders, teachers, bishops and councils). I do not see this biblical model promoted among the various protestant groups who wish to claim that they follow the bible. *

I never said that I “set aside” the Pope as head of the Church called Catholic. I revere the Pope for his knowledge and power in overseeing his church in accordance with the Holy Bible. There has always been a hierarchy in the Church (even in Abraham’s time,) including most protestant churches, i.e., a general council, ministers, elders, deacons, and parisheners. The “Bishop Most High” is most protestant churches usually refers to Christ, and Christ alone. The only difference is in the names of different positions various denominations maintain in the church.

I hope that this explains a little better how little difference there really is in Catholicism and Protestantism. We all love the Lord Our God with all our hearts, souls and minds, and we are all marching soldiers toward the same end, that which brings people to Christ. I see no real gain in arguing over the little nit-picky things. I see a much better result in working together to bring as many people as we can to love the Lord as we do, and as we love our neighbors, as well as our enemies.

I love the Pope and I love the Catholic Church, but I love God/Christ much much more.

Karen Carlisle

(…forever trying to be faithful and true to God and His Word in all I do and say while I am still here to do something about it…)

:extrahappy:Happy, happy, happy to be a follower of Christ in fellowship with all here on this forum!

 

[chero23]

Deducing that you mean the RCC, by “infallible”, is “unerring” and “flawless” the intended definition?

I’m curious to hear the taught perception (not personal opinion, thank you though) of the RCC infallibility in the light of the victims of sexual (including homosexual) abuse by RCC priests (they are the legal torch-holders of the RCC, right?) over the decades.
nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/files-show-cardinal-roger-mahony-covered-up-sex-abuse.html

Everyone in the world, after Adam & Eve, is born sinners. To stand firm on “We are totally & always correct about everything” is to build your house upon sand.

Trust in Christ, friends, walk in His ways, and know you’re free from God’s condemnation (Rom 8:1) by His divine gifting.

Once again your blaming the people, you cant blame what the Church teaches. You need to understand that the Church condemns these acts. I spoke to my priest about what is the sexual victim cases, and he said “look, the priests go to counseling, the counselors can go back and unfortunately they go back and commit it again”. The news does not tell you, that these priests go to counseling, try to dig underneath the root. The media just wants to portray the Church as bad.

 

[sealoch]

Im Catholic, and I sin. But that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church sinned. You have to understand bc guy X, guy y, and guy z sinned and their Catholic, that the Catholic Church is wrong. The Catholic Church has said since day 1 to today, and until Jesus returns. Were made up of sinners and saints, unfortunately more sinners than saints. But bc you see a group of Catholics that are doing something wrong you mark the Whole Catholic Church as wrong.

That is not what i was saying. I was not saying the church actually was doing anything wrong. For instance when they transititioned into a new era after Vatican II, was it wrong that the churches in different countries had not been permitted to do it in the local language? No, just updating but at the time someone had decided that the language should not have changed which would be called a mistake. I never said they sinned it is just the church decided that mass should be in a specific language and later was changed it had been in one language for a while so status quo.

I was only attempting to point out, evidently ineffectively, that the church itself has made mistakes and will again in the future like any other group.

 

[De_Maria]

You beat me to this post LOL, thank you these verses are so true, as we can see it doesn’t say theBible is the Pillar and Bulwark, but actually the Church

Amen! Thanks for responding.

 

[chero23]

*Even is yourself and kmcarl and others wish to set aside the Bishop of Rome as head of the universal Church and rely on Scripture, you are still left the problem or reconciling what Scripture says - and how the protestant communions have developed.
Scripture describes how issues are to be handled…and unity maintained (Elders, teachers, bishops and councils). I do not see this biblical model promoted among the various protestant groups who wish to claim that they follow the bible. *

I never said that I “set aside” the Pope as head of the Church called Catholic. I revere the Pope for his knowledge and power in overseeing his church in accordance with the Holy Bible. There has always been a hierarchy in the Church (even in Abraham’s time,) including most protestant churches, i.e., a general council, ministers, elders, deacons, and parisheners. The “Bishop Most High” is most protestant churches usually refers to Christ, and Christ alone. The only difference is in the names of different positions various denominations maintain in the church.

I hope that this explains a little better how little difference there really is in Catholicism and Protestantism. We all love the Lord Our God with all our hearts, souls and minds, and we are all marching soldiers toward the same end, that which brings people to Christ. I see no real gain in arguing over the little nit-picky things. I see a much better result in working together to bring as many people as we can to love the Lord as we do, and as we love our neighbors, as well as our enemies.

I love the Pope and I love the Catholic Church, but I love God/Christ much much more.

Karen Carlisle

(…forever trying to be faithful and true to God and His Word in all I do and say while I am still here to do something about it…)

:extrahappy:Happy, happy, happy to be a follower of Christ in fellowship with all here on this forum!

Jesus never said go to the Bible and fix the problem. There are 2 instances 1 in the Old Testament and 1 in the New Testament were God specifically states, when you have a problem take it to the Church and fix, never did he say, take it to the Torah or to the Bible and with it fix your problem. God is to smart to put a book in charge. The first 1 is in Deuteronomy 17:9-13
and coming to the Levitical priests, and to the judge who is in office in those days, you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision.
10 Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place which the LORD will choose; and you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you;
11 according to the instructions which they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the verdict which they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left.
12 The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or the judge, that man shall die; so you shall purge the evil from Israel.
13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and not act presumptuously again.
Here back in the OT nowhere did it state go to the Torah. Now lets look at the New Testament. Here is Matthew 18:15-17
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Once again, the Church, which we can see by historical records, the Bible (which by the way was given to you by the Catholic Church), writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the Bible itself all point to 1 Church, The Catholic Church