To prove Christianity is true we must first prove Judaism is true. Right?

[vincent10395]

Many arguments for the existence of God that are popular in philosophy today such as the Kalam cosmological argument imply attributes to God that narrows the search down to the God of the Abrahamic religions (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam). From what I’ve read, the idea of the cosmos being created ex nihilo by a single, personal deity is unprecedented when the Jews arrive on the scene. Hope this helps!

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut! And yes this did help!

God Bless!

 

[HardRockGTR]

Judaism, is also based on false premises.

You mean the same ones Christianity is based on, or am I misunderstanding the meaning of “premise”?

 

[nmgauss]

I see.
Really? I had no idea there were “many” Judaisms at first. Fascinating.

When one points out that there was no written scripture during the days of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Saul, David, and Solomon, it is no wonder that there were 20 different Judaisms. All of Judaism was oral only. How does a religion be the same everywhere if there is no written record?

So hold on, if Judaism is about God’s chosen people following specific laws, how were there many Judaisms? Furthermore, does Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism count as “different” Judaisms in the way you mean?

The only requirement of God’s chosen people was to worship Yahweh only. Other gods were recognized, but Israelites were told to worship only Yahweh if they really wanted to remain God’s chosen people. This requirement did not automatically cause all Israelites to stop worshipping other gods. Baal was a popular god among farmers, because fertility was supposed to be enhanced by worshipping that entity. Yahweh was a warrior lending the OT to many accounts of battles and wars. Relatively little of the Bible is devoted to harmonious life as a farmer.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The histroy of Judaism is an historical fact. And they kept track orally and through various writings. Their stories matched up. Their stories foretold the comming of a Savior, in great detail. Christ fulfilled those prophesies. Also, do you really think any human could have dreamed up those stories? I don’t.

Linus2nd

The history of Judaism is indeed an historical fact, as is the history of ancient Greece, ancient India, Mesoamerica, and whatnot. The stories that come from all of these cultures match. Insofar as whether or not Jesus fulfilled all of those prophesies is a matter of interpretation. You and I see Him as the Messiah. Jews do not. They can site chapter and verse how the Messiah was to have a more temporal or practical mission, for instance, the restoration of a nation or culture, an earthy kingdom and earthly prosperity. And we can site chapter and verse how the Jews had it wrong and still have it wrong about the Messiah, who He was and what His purpose was or is yet to be (depending on whether you are a Christian or a Jew). None of that is historical. It’s interpretation. I might also point out that whichever side of the argument you are on, there is no denying that the stories match because they were written one after the other, each with foreknowledge of the former. Even the Canonical Gospels were written with foreknowledge of the Old Testament stories with which the life of Jesus is aligned in these writings. That is historical fact, and the only historical facts we really know.

But is this reason to be crestfallen? I don’t think so personally. There’s a lot we don’t know. I don’t perceive that faith has to be based on knowing anything in a verifiable or factual way. No one really has that anyway, do they?

 

[Latinitas]

You mean the same ones Christianity is based on, or am I misunderstanding the meaning of “premise”?

Well, one of the premises of Judaism is that the Messiah has not yet come, as Maimonides notes.

A Christian who says this is without doubt an apostate.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

 

[adawgj]

Depends on what type of Judaism. If you mean by whether Judaism like the prophets then yes we probably would.

 

[Latinitas]

Depends on what type of Judaism. If you mean by whether Judaism like the prophets then yes we probably would.

Well, if Jesus did actually die and especially rise again, then it isn’t exactly necessary to prove anything else. Those prophecies would confirm faith, absolutely, but really, if Jesus can rise again, I would trust Him and His power instantly.

The rest of the Old Testament beliefs are really natural law or Jewish law, not binding on the rest of nations.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

 

[adawgj]

Well, if Jesus did actually die and especially rise again, then it isn’t exactly necessary to prove anything else. Those prophecies would confirm faith, absolutely, but really, if Jesus can rise again, I would trust Him and His power instantly.

The rest of the Old Testament beliefs are really natural law or Jewish law, not binding on the rest of nations.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

Precisely my point.

 

[HardRockGTR]

Well, one of the premises of Judaism is that the Messiah has not yet come, as Maimonides notes.

A Christian who says this is without doubt an apostate.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

Ahhhhhhh, okay.

In some way, the messiah hasn’t yet “entirely” come, since Jesus is supposed to come to Earth twice.

When one points out that there was no written scripture during the days of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Saul, David, and Solomon, it is no wonder that there were 20 different Judaisms. All of Judaism was oral only. How does a religion be the same everywhere if there is no written record?

Oral tradition couldn’t possibly not be affected by some sort of Chinese whispers effect. In other words, I’m sure there has been a lot of perversion within the tradition because of misunderstandings and the likes. Yet, the bible is allegedly the word of God. How this can be is beyond me.

The only requirement of God’s chosen people was to worship Yahweh only. Other gods were recognized, but Israelites were told to worship only Yahweh if they really wanted to remain God’s chosen people. This requirement did not automatically cause all Israelites to stop worshipping other gods. Baal was a popular god among farmers, because fertility was supposed to be enhanced by worshipping that entity. Yahweh was a warrior lending the OT to many accounts of battles and wars. Relatively little of the Bible is devoted to harmonious life as a farmer.

Henotheism, huh? I thought the commandments prohibited belief in other gods.

Does this mean that there are other gods than YHWH?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Also, the messiah is popularly believed to arrive 6000 years after creation.

I am not certain where the source of this popular belief can be found, but there are a couple of prophecies in Scripture that seem to p(name removed by moderator)oint the coming of the Messiah.

After the Assyrians exiled the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BC (2 Kings 17), the Baylonians completed the exile by carrying off the remaining tribes of the Southern Kingdom in 587 BC (2 Kings 24.)

Jeremiah first prophesied seventy years in exile sometime around 587.

This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.” (Jer 29:10-14)

Keep those 70 years in the back of your mind.

The Book of Daniel has a very interesting description of “the Son of Man.”

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Daniel makes mention of Jeremiah’s prophecy in chapter 9.

In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. (Dan 9:1)

Later in chapter 9, the angel Gabriel further stipulates that the exile will be extended by another seventy sevens (490 years.)

“**Seventy ‘sevens’ **are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” (Dan 9: 24-27)

If we begin at 587, subtract the first 70 years, we arrive at 517, give a few years for Daniel’s time and take away another 490 years, we arrive at the time when Herod began building the Temple in 20 BC (the time to rebuild and restore Jerusalem.)

The seven sevens and sixty-two sevens that demarcate the time from the coming of the Anointed One and when he is put to death are unclear, but the desecration of the Temple by the Romans did put an end to sacrifice and an “abomination” was set up when an idol was set by Titus, the Roman commander, to mark the place the Temple stood.

Add to this that Daniel’s dream of the four part statue and a stone, fits very nicely to describe the four ancient kingdoms of Babylon (to whose king, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel was speaking), the Persians, Greeks and Romans. The Romans fit the description of the people whose ruler “will come” put to death the Anointed One (see Dan 9:24-7) and destroyed the city and sanctuary (70 AD). Furthermore, the “stone” that comes after the four beasts fits with Jesus choosing Peter (the rock) upon whom he bestows the keys to his kingdom.”

One other point to note is that the “son of man” according to Daniel was given a dominion that would not pass away and a kingdom that would last forever and yet the anointed one was “put to death” and “have nothing.”

If those two extremely paradoxical descriptions can be reconciled easily, except in the person and claims of Jesus, please let me know. Yet, how, in prophesy some 500-600 years prior could that paradox have even made sense?

 

[nmgauss]

Ahhhhhhh, okay.

Oral tradition couldn’t possibly not

 

[rinnie]

I know that Christianity comes from Judaism, but how do we know that before Christ Judaism was true? I’m very interested in hearing what you guys have to say!

God Bless!

Because it foretold the comming of Christ, and he fullfilled it. God gave us history and reason.

 

[pocohombre]

I would not say so.

In the late 1100s, Maimonides formulated the Thirteen principles of the Jewish faith, which are:

Maimonides basically said that one cannot be an orthodox Jew if one believes contrary to these doctrines. The bolded statements are seriously problematic.

Basically, in order to avoid being a ‘Jewish heretic’ if we might call it that, one must believe and wait for the Messiah to come, which according to the Catholic Church is blasphemous and contumelious (no offense to Jews). That is, it is heresy, according to Maimonides (regarded as one of the greatest teachers of Judaism), to believe that the Messiah has already come.

The statement of the Torah is also problematic, as it indicates that the Old Testament will never be consummated, and that the idea that one could fulfull the entirety of the Old Testament is blasphemous to the Jews.

So to say that Judaism is merely incomplete is not correct, and Protestantism is fundamentally heretical; see the Council of Trent.

Judaism, is also based on false premises.

I mean to say this with all due charity, to Jews, Catholics, Protestants and to all, ad majorem Dei gloriam et inque hominum salutem.
Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

Judaism then is what The Church is today. You should look and think of Judaism (OT) as you think of your own church today-the light of the world, the true chosen people. No doubt about it. No falsity. When one needs perfection in their church, even teach it (well, infallibility) then of course Judaism is "lacking’ and is “problematic”. If one sees the church as imperfect (even with divisions/factions) but perfect in it’s simplist and final purpose, then one can see Judaism in the same light. She was imperfect, yet perfect. She delivered salvation (the Christ) to the world, as promised. Perfect ! When the Lord comes back there will be a Bride ready and prepared to meet Him, uncountable souls from every nation and generation, washed in His blood. Church mission accomplished, as promised. Perfect !

 

[livingwordunity]

I know that Christianity comes from Judaism, but how do we know that before Christ Judaism was true? I’m very interested in hearing what you guys have to say!

God Bless!

The short answer is Jesus is proof of it. God became a man and basically said, “Hey guys, I’m God. Let me prove it to you”. And he proved it to them with all the miracles and especially with the Resurrection. And there is no reason to doubt the testimony of the ones who witnessed it since they were willing to die torturous deaths rather than have their life spared by just saying that it was made up. Also, if Jesus was a skilled con artist or magician who was able to pull off some sort of trick or illusion it is telling that there hasn’t ever been anyone else in history before or since who has been able to do all that he did (i.e. getting publicly beaten almost to death, then being publicly crucified, and then rising from the dead as promised).

 

[pocohombre]

What about bringing all the Israelites back to their homeland? Or eliminating hunger, disease and death? Or granting Jews eternal joy? It seems to me that the Jews are undoubtedly one of, if not the most, persecuted cultures through history. What about having the whole world worshiping the one God of Israel? Or being a descendant of king Solomon? Or eliminating of all weapons of war?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashiach_ben_David#Ancient_Israel

I’m not trying to refute your beliefs as much as I’m just actually curious.

Aah, good questions. That Christ fulfilled OT prophecies is a general statement. Your question demands more specificity. The Jews of Christ’s time also believed that their messiah would do or take care of the things you mentioned, even kick out the Romans and establish the Davidic Kingdom forever, as prophesied. What many did not realize was the these would be fulfilled at His second coming. His first coming fulfilled the other half of the prophecies. His death is mentioned in Pslams and Isaiah, quite vividly.
l

 

[pocohombre]

When one points out that there was no written scripture during the days of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Saul, David, and Solomon, it is no wonder that there were 20 different Judaisms. All of Judaism was oral only. How does a religion be the same everywhere if there is no written record?

 

[bsroufek]

In one of Jesus’ parables, about the rich man and Lazarus, He quotes Abraham as saying that, if they won’t believe Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe if someone (Jesus) should rise from the dead.

 

[rinnie]

I know that Christianity comes from Judaism, but how do we know that before Christ Judaism was true? I’m very interested in hearing what you guys have to say!

God Bless!

One think I think is very important to say if alot of the N.T. cannot be seen in its true sense without tying it into the O.T.

We know that Father Abraham told us the truth and Judaism is true the same way we know Christianity is. It came from God.

 

[eddie_too]

i thnk the word true is erroneous if applied to judaism.

a more correct word to replace the word true would be inspired.

judaism was definitely inspired by almight God.

however, since Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life, judaism contained truths, but not the Truth. judaism would reveal the Truth in the fullness of time.

 

[pocohombre]

i thnk the word true is erroneous if applied to judaism.

a more correct word to replace the word true would be inspired.

judaism was definitely inspired by almight God.

however, since Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life, judaism contained truths, but not the Truth. judaism would reveal the Truth in the fullness of time.

Can anything that Jesus, the Great I Am, inspired, not be true ? Judaism “carried” the truth as the Church, the pillar of truth, carries truth today. They looked forward to Christ and Calvary as we look backwards to Calvary for salvation. Both believe(d) in the everlasting future Davidic kingdom also.