To Return or Not to Return?

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ekindermann

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We left our local parish over 5 years ago due to abuses and disobedience. We traveled out of the diocese and joined a different parish 40 minutes away. It wasn’t perfect either, but it was much better as far as obedience to GIRM, etc.About two years ago, it began to make changes too, not kneeling just before going to receive communion, etc. and other things began to happen there that made us not so “attached” so to speak.

We started traveling in the other direction back into our diocese after learning of a more obedient parish - but again 40 minutes away and very small. They are going to begin reconstruction there this month which will make liturgy there pretty unsettled for awhile, plus being so far away, we never joined, just attended and we haven’t really “belonged” anywhere since.

We now have a new bishop, very orthodox, and promising as far as the future is concerned.

He has recently visited many parishes for meet & greet, question & answer type meetings. I attended our local parish’s last weekend. Many folks were mighty unhappy with being told that they needed to follow what the church teaches re: rubrics of Mass, Eucharist, homily delivery etc. Ok, question…

Should we begin to go back there now, and attempt to re-what is the right word??? - reinvolve ourselves in parish life, attempting to help it be the Catholic parish it should be? Our kids are 6, 9, 11 and 19, they are aware of the “troubles” and why we travel (roamin’ Catholics). I know there will be some stress and perhaps even hostility. Even the places we travel to we are still one of the few families who kneel or receive on the tongue, and that homeschool.

I would not return there until I knew they were using valid matter for Eucharist, but the bishop just told them they will use the proper recipe, so I know we will be actually receiving the Lord when we are there. We may have to tolerate a few more homilies by lay persons and the “nun” pastoral administrator, (I assume she’s a nun as she goes by “Sr.” however her clothing, etc. does not give her away.) Even though she and the entire group gathered at the meeting were told that only the priest, bishop or deacon can give a homily, he did say that when he first arrived here that he had told them that until he has the “opportunity to experience liturgy across the diocese” they should continue “as they are” (so to speak), so they therefore are “doing what they were told to do”.

He tried to give “sister” an out in my opinion, by saying, “There are two allowable recipes to be used for the Eucharistic bread, but if the diocesan office has not sent them to you then you did not know that. I will see that you get the proper recipe.”

I guess my concern is - do we continue to travel - really not being connected to any parish now 😦 or do we head back, face the music and certain unpleasant attitudes by some - but not all - at our “conservative ways” and try to effect change?

Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
 
Sounds like the bishop was sending mixed signals. Maybe I’m not well-informed on the matter (no pun intended), but since when do parishes need a “recipe” for wafers? I thought they bought those things in bulk.
 
Unfortunately, the wafers are not the only permissable bread. They can make their own, but must follow specific ingredients.
 
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ekindermann:
Unfortunately, the wafers are not the only permissable bread. They can make their own, but must follow specific ingredients.
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Sounds like a lot of avoidable work.
 
yes, which really makes one wonder why they would go to all the trouble? Seems like there are better “ministries” one could be involved in.
 
How close are you to the Cathedral parish? Presumably the liturgical practices THERE would be as they should.
 
He’s only been here for almost 50 days, so I’m not sure even the cathedral is in line yet. We are just over an hour from the cathedral.

As to his mixed signals…I really think he wants to encourage the disobedient to reconcile. In other words he doesn’t want to alienate them, rather, bring them back in. And not lose a lot of other just really unaware folks by following them (the disobedient) out - if they leave.
 
Well, I would think that seven weeks is plenty of time to clean house in the cathedral, if only for the bishop’s Sunday Mass. You might try that this Sunday, and see how it goes. Depending on the architecture, your kids might get a kick out of it.
 
I suppose that is true and yes they would.

However, I really am wondering about wanting to return to our home parish. I am tired of having to travel & somewhat angry about being forced to leave because we wanted to stay obedient. Now that we have an obedient bishop, I’m thinking perhaps it would be a good time to return and hopefully help him help our parish. kwim?
 
Beth,

I am very familiar with your situation after participating in the related threads over the last few months.

I would give your home parish a chance again. It is true that things may not be better yet, but from what we have heard from the folks in Souix Falls, they will.

I face similar troubles in my area (between Detroit and Lansing) and every now and then I check back with the nearest parishes that have their failings to see if things are getting better. For the most part, I have been fortunate to see some change (and that is just due to people gaining more information within the last few years about the existence of norms and rules). Add to that a new Bishop, and you will start to see change at an even quicker pace.

Our prayers are with you.
 
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msproule:
Beth,

I am very familiar with your situation after participating in the related threads over the last few months.

I would give your home parish a chance again. It is true that things may not be better yet, but from what we have heard from the folks in Souix Falls, they will.

I face similar troubles in my area (between Detroit and Lansing) and every now and then I check back with the nearest parishes that have their failings to see if things are getting better. For the most part, I have been fortunate to see some change (and that is just due to people gaining more information within the last few years about the existence of norms and rules). Add to that a new Bishop, and you will start to see change at an even quicker pace.

Our prayers are with you.
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I second that emotion. Bp. walked into a rat’s nest, and must tread lightly for a while. Hang in there. He’s a gift from God to rescue you.

God bless,
Sue
 
I’m gonna really milk the advisors now… 😃 Thanks for your replies…

Do we make an appointment with Sr. or the sacramental minister (the retired priest) ?? Introducing ourselves ? (She knows who I am, since I attended and spoke up at the two meetings, I’m sure she won’t smile when she sees me coming.) She’s never met Richard or the kids. Or should we just show up this weekend.

Next question, we always kneel at the appropriate times, should we keep kneeling and stand out like sore thmbs? I don’t mind standing out…not that that is why we do it…but we’ve just gotten used to it. I actually tried to stand once, I had an overwhelming pulling to kneel and decided Never to try that again!

:blessyou: Beth
 
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ekindermann:
Next question, we always kneel at the appropriate times, should we keep kneeling and stand out like sore thmbs? I don’t mind standing out…not that that is why we do it…but we’ve just gotten used to it. I actually tried to stand once, I had an overwhelming pulling to kneel and decided Never to try that again!
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Beth,

I am going to pass on the first question for now and answer the second:

Since your Bishop has made it clear that the norms will be followed, I assume this includes the proper posture of the faithful, which is kneeling (where instructed in the GIRM). It is not the priest’s (nor pastoral administrator’s) prerogative to overturn that judgement. That authority ends with the Bishop.

It becomes complicated because of the desire for unity of posture among the faithful. However, there is always lack of unity in outward posture; Some people are physically incapable of kneeling or standing due to age, infirmity, etc.

What is of greater importance in my opinion (and others) is unity of the Church as a whole. That is, at the very least kneel during the Consecration. Personally, I would do it (and do) because lack of kneelers in itself is insufficient reason not to kneel and you know your Bishop would add them yesterday if he could just to eliminate that excuse.
 
yes, I think we’re going to invest in the little portable kneelers…😉

Well today is Thursday, and this is weighing heavily on my mind & heart - to return yet or wait.

I’m thinking of calling the diocese and asking IF the recipies were sent and IF nayone has communicated with the parish anymore this week and IF they know if the correct matter will now be used for Mass…

My folks aren’t sure they are ready to face (swallow) homilies by lay folks - even if it’s only for a few more months (until the bishop finally lays the “smack down”) They also feel very distracted by the negativity. I can blow that off and the kids seem like they want to return.

They want to return - I think - because:
Its not such a long drive (a very kid type concern, of course.)
They will see friends there (another kid concern, but valid)
They - I think WANT to see things get better and WANT to help make it better (more obedient) I think, like me, they want some resolution and peace.

Its very hard to feel so disconnected…😦
 
:ehh: I wish someone, who has been in a parish that went completely off the charts and has subsequently been rescued, would tell how the operation went! Some of the protestant behaviors leave me baffled.
WHY would someone insist on using a bread recipe that the Church does not want used? Its so simple to obey and easier on the
“baker” - why be so angry when made to stop using an invalid recipe? Along with homilies given by “preacher wannabees” and their children - talk about a captive audience - Whew! Pride and stubbornness regarding all these matters have cost the faithful much suffering. I have one more item of concern to ask for an opinion on.
It is that in the Chapel where the taberncale is - a still-life picture is on the wall of a jug and a round loaf of bread - above it says
“we remember”. That just jumps out at me as a protestant
message - how say you?
 
well it is Sat morning. I spoke with someone at the diocese yesterday. I asked, “Is it reasonable for me to believe that this weekend if I attend St. A, that the matter will be valid?” She answered, “Not necessarily. I can’t promise that. The bishop is visiting and gathering information. When he is done (assumedly in another month) he will determine what needs to be looked at.” I impatienty (I know, I know) said, “Well, it is just Our Lord’s body. No rush.” She was very kind with my attitude and impatience. She did say that she promised that when we hung up she would call over to the liturgy office and have them send the correct recipe to the parish in question…

We tried to call the “sacramental minister” (the “retired” priest) to ask him what he would be using, but he was not at home. I didn’t get the nerve or time to call the nun pastorla admin to ask her directly. So I guess we will travel again this weekend.

Unless something happens today that changes my mind…😉

:blessyou:
 
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ekindermann:
well it is Sat morning. I spoke with someone at the diocese yesterday. I asked, “Is it reasonable for me to believe that this weekend if I attend St. A, that the matter will be valid?” She answered, “Not necessarily. I can’t promise that. The bishop is visiting and gathering information. When he is done (assumedly in another month) he will determine what needs to be looked at.” I impatienty (I know, I know) said, “Well, it is just Our Lord’s body. No rush.” She was very kind with my attitude and impatience. She did say that she promised that when we hung up she would call over to the liturgy office and have them send the correct recipe to the parish in question…

We tried to call the “sacramental minister” (the “retired” priest) to ask him what he would be using, but he was not at home. I didn’t get the nerve or time to call the nun pastorla admin to ask her directly. So I guess we will travel again this weekend.

Unless something happens today that changes my mind…😉

:blessyou:
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I feel for you! As far as I know, the “receipe” is just flour and water, right? They are not allowed to add any levening or sweetening agent. I agree with the other poster. Its so sad that pride and individuality get in the way of obedience.

To me, it begs the question, WHY are they still in the Catholic Church?!
 
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ekindermann:
Or should we just show up this weekend?

:blessyou: Beth
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As a birthday gift to myself, this past weekend, I decided we would just GO back to St. A’s and see…

I had been told by a trusted source that they have recieved the approved recipe and are now using the appropriate matter for the “substantial” bread that they make for communion…This person also told me that when her daughter made her FHC this spring (and after I informed her of the problem) she made it plain to the “nun” that her daughter would receive a host and not the home made stuff. She complied and ever since when my friend approaches for communion she is given a host. Apparently they (the EEM’s) have both in the bowl (the proper word escapes me).

So with the knowledge that the matter was correct and thus the Mass would be valid, although illicit due to too much nun on the altar and not enough priest (excuse me sacramental minister), like during the “reflection preaching” in place of the homily! We went ahead.

Fast FWD to last Saturday 4PM Mass: We were in the second row (we sit close so the kids can see) and we knelt at the approprate times, as we approached for communion (the nun was our EEM) she somewhat fumbly, but kindly, did offer me a host, and I recieved on the tongue as I always do. I suppose my genuflection before Our Lord gave her a clue that this would be my preference, or perhaps she remembers me, from our “dicussions” when the Bishop came to have his Main Street meeting here in May.

At the Main Steet meeting, Bishop Carlson said that as for her “preaching”, etc, that until she hears further from him they should continue Liturgy as it has been, with the exception of poinbting out that the Eucharist would not be valid if it were not of proper matter. (You should have seen their collective jaws hit the floor!) He expressed that it was his desire to “experience liturgy” throughout the diocese first, then meet with priests and “pastors”.

OK so fast fwd again to this past w/e:
Since it was Mission Sunday, they had a lay missionary speak during the homily time. (So we were spared a sister homily.) However as we came into the church about 5 minutes before Mass (running late! I like to arrive earlier.) sister was making announcements, I guess. I would call it, well, never mind…Anyway, she was talking and on & on she went. When she finally quit, Mass began, with she & Fr. Sacrament Minister processing in side by side, blah, blah. I won’t bother to detail her invovement in different and many places throughout Mass that were not appropriate. Suffice to say, she led parts of prayers, transitions, etc in the Mass, non of it struck me as essential parts (ie Consecration was all said by father) but she stood just off the corner of the altar during the whole consecration (like, she can’t be accused of being a concelebrant, not quite, but just off the boundary, IYKWIM) She dismissed everyone “Go in peace…” at the end

Ok so still waiting for that supposed meeting to occur. Three weeks ago we traveled to Gladwin to celebrate Mass with Bishop Carlson, as he was struggling to fill in throughout the diocese where priests were out due to illness & vacations??? I guess? He did say that two priests were hospitalized and I know the priest in Clare who was due to retire, had to be hosp. as well just before summer began. So our dear, overworked bishop was helping to cover the shortage. Both Gladwin & Clare still had to have Communion services in the absence of a priest that weekend: one on Saturday and the other parish on Sunday 😦

After Mass in Gladwin with Bishop, we went to say hi and thank him, for his beautiful as usual Mass and homily. He looked tired and serious. He said he thinks he is going to have to ask for help outside the diocese (preists).

So in the St. A’s parish bulletin they are looking to fill three part-time, paid positions in Religous Ed. One for the 3-5 year olds, (Good Shepherd Cat. program) one for the 1st - 5th grades, and one for Youth Ministry (grades 6-12). Tempting for me except, 1) I don’t know, due to my views, if I’d be hired although my friend tells me no one has come forward to fill these positions, 2) I already homeschool and have full hands, 3) well one and two are enough I guess…We haven’t “officially” even rejoined the parish, so I guess there’s that…

This will prbaobly be too long and I’ll have to split it up…OPINIONS ANYONE, ANYONE??? 🙂
:blessyou: Beth
 
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