To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[SIA]

You must imagine that you are a mind reader to accuse me of hating you and so forth. I openly tell you that I have no hate for you nor anger. So let me put you at ease there.You surely have a funny way of showing it by calling me a traitor and a turn coat. Catholic or not, this is uncharitable and I call on anyone here who is reasonable to call it as it is. I have never once called Catholicism a turn coat to Christianity as you are calling my church a turn coat to Catholicism.

You need to be a realist and understand that from the Catholic perspective you are clearly a heretic and a traitor to your original faith.**NO… This is your opinion. ** I don’t know a better word for it. But then again I suppose you would call The Church hateful for anathematizing any heretic for preaching things completely contrary to what the apostles handed down to us. You might do well to remember that the apostles were not all sugar-n-spice-and-everything-nice to those who preached a different gospel nor was Jesus to those who tried to turn the Church into a secular workplace (recall the overturning of the money changers). I don’t know who put in your head the idea that Christians are just supposed to be full of platitudes for those who reject the gospel when the bible tells us otherwise:I’m sure that I’m not the only one here who believes that it is you who is rejecting the Gospel.

Galatians: 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!**Who are you to say that I am receiving a different Gospel than the genuine Gospel? **

I didn’t even curse you - I just called you what you seem to be boasting about in your signature line - being a traitor (or was it a good swimmmer? ). Do you imagine those Reformers who then turned against the original reformers to start yet other protestant sects or returned to the Catholic Church were not called traitors by Calvinists and Lutherans etc.? Come on - get real.I then can call you and your church traitors to the Gospel as many people do but I will not.

Do you know a better more charitable term for somone who turns their back on the faith they were given to them? Perhaps I could have said “fallen away” but is that really any better given that Satan fell away too and turned his back on God and elected his own self authority and pride over God’s authority? Don’t flatter yourself. I didn’t fall away from anything. i walked away knowing full well that I was doing what God wished for me.

You need to go take a pill or something SIA and recalibrate your sensitivities. You can’t be in here provoking and insulting Catholics and at the same time tell us we can’t respond back to you or that you must approve of the words we choose to use to try to get you to come to your senses and be reasonable.
This is most certainly the pot calling the kettle black.
James

 

[CentralFLJames]

.

Furtherance of this discussion serves no useful purpose SIA and it is far afield of the OP so I am disengaging you and ignoring your pithy comments here.

The facts remain - you turned your back on the Catholic Church and you are no longer in communion with us. Further you are gloating and boasting about it in your signature line which is also not a shiny example of charity (talking about black kettles and tea-pots and such). Sorry, there is no other way to sugar coat it. That makes you a traitor to the original faith you openly professed with other Catholics at one time in your life; and a gloater as well.

There is a lot more than my personal opinion at play as well if you have even a clue of church history. You might reacquaint yourself with official Catholic proclamations: Apostolicae Curae - “Anglican orders are “utterly null and absolutely void”. That’s not my opinion…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Glad to see that Archie Bunker is alive and well.(sarcasm)…

David, you do know that Archie Bunker was a Protestant don’t you?

You mean well David but I find myself saying in reply “Doctor heal thy self” - just “fix” your own error my friend.

Clearly by your admonishments you imagine that you have the correct view of things. Do you also believe you are exempted from the effects of pride here in assuming a higher moral standard?

But I do have to smile in seeing an appeal to charity at the same time you are calling for a respect for the plurality and diversity of multi-denominationalism which goes explicitly against Christ’s will for unity. For some odd reason I find myself now recollecting the irony present in Rodney King’s infamous quote “Can’t we all just get along?” spoken in the wake of the death and mayhem of the LA riots; riots which he shared substantial responsibility in for not “getting along” with the law or authority in the first place.

The underlying assumption you are making wrongly is that every opinion on religion and everything calling itself “Christian” is of equal merit to God and even really Christian. This is dubious at best and non-scriptural. The assumption you are projecting here that Christ wants us all to “get along” with each other in our perfect-disharmony of conflicted beliefs is not sustainable. Error and Truth can never live side by side in authentic peace anymore so that God can permit evil and imperfection into heaven. It is not the nature of error or evil to accept a long-lived peace and truth will not compromise itself for the sake of peace: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers”.

Sure, we can all show common human respect for the potential of Christ in each other - but that does not mean Catholics should show an insincere charity that makes it look like we accept anyone who puts on an effigy of Christ and pretend we are not outraged by it. Error and Truth are on a collision course for a final showdown - its inevitable.

Observe that the apostles teach us to have nothing to do with those who reject the handed down teachings and from those that elect their own self-reasoned teachings. Salvation is taught - not bought in a book store. There is no valid concept of “Christianity” in a plurality of faiths and denominations. That said there is plenty of room in The Church (Catholic) for those who accept her teachings and authority but are not fully immersed in and perfected in her teachings but nonetheless try to learn.

Make no mistakes here. There is only one true complete faith. The legion of partial-truth faiths calling themselves Christian do not merit the Body of Christ but inflict damage and suffering to it - which is The One True Church. One can smile and be outwardly congenial, pleasant and charitable while inflicting that damage - but a false peace and civility that is really torturous to the teachings as well as reason is not charity - it is deception and insincerity.
Luke 12:49-57:

49 ** “I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! **50 There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see (a) cloud rising in the west you say immediately that it is going to rain–and so it does; 55 and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot–and so it is.
56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? 57 "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?

Paraphrasing from Armstrongs comment’s on the fallaciousness of the Protestant notion of an invisible Church:

Virtually nothing is more strongly and repeatedly condemned in the Bible than divisions, sectarianism, and denominationalism. The Bible teaches that there is one Church only, with one truth and one unified apostolic tradition.

Our Lord Jesus prayed at the Last Supper for Christians to be “one even as we [the Father and the son] are one” and “perfectly one” (Jn. 17:22-23) and viewed the Church as being “one flock” with “one shepherd” (Jn. 10:16). St. Luke described the earliest Christians as being “of one heart and soul” (Acts 4:32). St. Peter warned about “false teachers” among Christians, who would “secretly bring in destructive heresies,” which go against “the way of truth” (2 Pet. 2:1-2).

St. Paul, above all, repeatedly condemns “dissensions” and “difficulties” (Rom. 16:17), “quarreling” (1 Cor. 1:11), “jealousy and strife” (1 Cor. 3:3), “divisions” and “factions” (1 Cor. 11:18-19), “discord” (1 Cor. 12:25), “enmity” and “party spirit” (Gal. 5:20), and calls for Christians to be “united in the same mind and the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10; cf. Phil. 2:2). He expressly condemns party affiliations associated with persons (1 Cor. 1:12-13: “Is Christ divided?”; cf. 3:4-7). His strong teaching on this topic is well summed up in the following two passages (emphases added): 1 Timothy 6:3-5 and Titus 3:9-11.

Have A Good Day.

James

 

[Soutane]

First you claim to know why I am here and what my intentions are…but then you go on to state that God alone in omniscient …

And then you continue in a huff about my “uncharitable insistence that you are Mary worshippers - after repeated correction”, even though I’ve stated “repeatedly” that I’ve never claimed that ALL Catholics worship Mary…

There are posts where you spout out all sorts of “uncharitable comments” to other posters, but you don’t see that…???
A “heads up” - what you have posted below, may be considered “sarcasm” to some here…and if it continues…they may send one of these little “whistling” guys along to you! - just thought I’d let you know.

Leeann you Know that was sarcastic and you know why I posted it-I was illustrating exactly what you are doing in the smearing of all Catholics with your calumny.If you recognize that perhaps an infintessimally small number of Catholics may worship Mary,why are you making such an issue of it,if not to smear all of us and our Faith which we are particularly protective of.

I think that you are being dishonest and uncharitable in pursuing your nitpicking obsessive attack on us.Yes I believe that you are attacking ALL Catholics by proxy because of the sinfulness or ignorance of an infintessimally small number of Catholics who may be so woefully catechised as to worship a creature.

It’s not difficult to determine why you are here when one examines the fruit of your posts.

 

[Soutane]

Glad to see that Archie Bunker is alive and well.(sarcasm)
Is that what the Lord intended–maybe so but I think not, we are all apart of Christianity. Please I know that you all may be passionate but I think we should ALL concentrate on what CHRIST wants, He set the standard and I dont see many here that have that focus. All about my church is better than yours PLEASE if you got a perceived problem in your church FIX it, really if Protesants have a perceived problem fix it, if Catholics have a perceived problem fix it. Jesus and his apostles had a very simple **But **powerful message that all humanity could understand and now 2000 during the last years later we add OUR bit. EGO’s is our biggest problem, and guess what most of humanity is trying to figure out which is best —HOW SAD— how many souls have been lost while you pompously pronounce YOUR faith. Really, get real all of you people and I must admit after reading all of this stuff it gets down to a handfull. You should all be ashamed, the poor soul that comes into any of these forums( or your churches) would be totaly turned off. As a born again Christian for more than 30 years I thought that all of you would be pleased-- I know that our Father is and that Jesus is. Your sincerity and love does not come through here sad to say. Whether Peter started it or Paul it does not matter we are all part of the cornerstone of CHRIST it is his church and WE are his bride is there any thing else.

Yours In Christ
David

The "poor souls"who feel they have the license to come onto a forum on a Catholic website and **** all over our Faith deserve everything they get.I have no problem with any non-Catholic Christian who thinks my faith is bogus and the teachings of my faith are so much malarkey.I will be perfectly content to have a civilized dialogue with that person.Once that person crosses the boundary into taunting and mocking behaviors and continues to bear false witness once charitably corrected he or she deserves to feel our wrath.

If you want to see Christian Charity in action go to CARM and post ONE thing in defense of this Holy Catholic Church.

Do NOT presume to lecture us as is it is obviously NOT your ox being gored.The Catholics on this thread have Nothing to apologise for.I have been uncharitable on other threads and have offered personal and public apologies for my behaviour,but NOT on this thread.

If YOUR Mother or your relationship with her was being attacked,how would YOU react?

With understandable fury one would hope.

 

[SIA]

Furtherance of this discussion serves no useful purpose SIA and it is far afield of the OP so I am disengaging you and ignoring your pithy comments here.

The facts remain - you turned your back on the Catholic Church and you are no longer in communion with us. Further you are gloating and boasting about it in your signature line which is also not a shiny example of charity (talking about black kettles and tea-pots and such). Sorry, there is no other way to sugar coat it. That makes you a traitor to the original faith you openly professed with other Catholics at one time in your life; and a gloater as well.

There is a lot more than my personal opinion at play as well if you have even a clue of church history. You might reacquaint yourself with official Catholic proclamations: Apostolicae Curae - “Anglican orders are “utterly null and absolutely void”. That’s not my opinion…

James

Say whatever you want about it, you are spewing venom at my church. Your opinion on Anglican Orders is your opinion. There is much to back up Anglican Orders as valid and you know it. Your aren’t naive. Using the terms traitor and turn coat were never used by me to describe you and your faith but yet you use them on me multiple times and then say that it is not uncharitable. You are not being real here. Stop the hatred James!

 

[Leeann]

Hello Soutane

Originally Posted by Leeann
*First you claim to know why I am here and what my intentions are…but then you go on to state that God alone in omniscient …

And then you continue in a huff about my “uncharitable insistence that you are Mary worshippers - after repeated correction”, even though I’ve stated “repeatedly” that I’ve never claimed that ALL Catholics worship Mary…

There are posts where you spout out all sorts of “uncharitable comments” to other posters, but you don’t see that…???
A “heads up” - what you have posted below, may be considered “sarcasm” to some here…and if it continues…they may send one of these little “whistling” guys along to you! - just thought I’d let you know.*

Response Soutane:

Leeann you Know that was sarcastic and you know why I posted it-I was illustrating exactly what you are doing in the smearing of all Catholics with your calumny.If you recognize that perhaps an infintessimally small number of Catholics may worship Mary, why are you making such an issue of it, if not to smear all of us and our Faith which we are particularly protective of.

*I *don’t “Know” that it was sarcastic"…that is how *you *perceived it in this particular instance …I actually thought it was just kind of “funny”…the use of the little whistling guy, that had been sent to ME by another poster.

And “calumny” again? See post # 127.

But* I *don’t “recognize that perhaps an infintessimally small number of Catholics may worship Mary”….those are *your *words…and so is the conclusion that you have chosen to arrive at with regards to “smearing all of you”.

Soutane:
I think that you are being dishonest and uncharitable in pursuing your nitpicking obsessive attack on us. Yes I believe that you are attacking ALL Catholics by proxy because of the sinfulness or ignorance of an infintessimally small number of Catholics who may be so woefully catechised as to worship a creature.

That is your opinion and you are as free to express it just as anyone else is free to express theirs.

Soutane:
It’s not difficult to determine why you are here when one examines the fruit of your posts.

I can understand why you feel that way.

However I believe you may not have seen some of my posts, as there have been quite a bit of activity and other posting since I posted them….for if you had you may not have posted that last sentence.

Leeann #183

I don’t know about any of you, but the name calling and sniping and accusations on all sides are pretty disgusting aren’t they???

I apologize to anyone that I may have offended, whether by misunderstanding of my intentions due to not being able to distinguish sarcasm from humour, or by direct attack, or by frustration at not being able to make myself clear due to my own incapabilities.

Can we discuss the Mass and the worship and the point being made that it is the most meaningful and important form of worship within the Catholic Church.

As one poster said that the worship is centred totally on Christ,
I posted a reference to the Vatican website on a document with regards to Mary and the eucharist…“Woman of the Eucharist”.

Has anyone seen it or read it and if so, can you offer what your opinion or understanding of what it says means?
Leeann** #204**

You are correct - rude and uncharitable comments are not acceptable – something I myself tried to address and apologize for (#183)….the only comment you made after that pertaining to me was:
*Quote:
(name removed by moderator)

I feel it is best for me not to talk with Leeann further as she encourages me to be uncharitable and meet rudeness with rudeness - which is not a Christian or even civilised repsonse. She of course may believe what she wishes… *

Which is fine…perhaps you missed that post of mine or perhaps this was your response to it.
With regards to your response posted above:

Where have I ever insulted Mary?

Perhaps your wife and yourself have no concept of what insulting is, as you seem to be ignoring your own postings – go back and take a real close look….from your first post here to me….nothing pertaining to the “thread topic” at all or to entering into any kind of discussion whatsoever.

Is it part of the CA Forum rules that some Catholic posters are permitted to be sarcastic, obnoxious, bigoted, arrogant, mocking,rude,judgemental…. whenever they want because this is a Catholic site and you are the “hosts” and it’s okay for “hosts” to be like that…but Non-Catholic posters must not respond or act like that ever because they are only “guests”…and proper guests don’t act that way?

We’ve all displayed…or I should many have displayed this type of behaviour in here…it’s not right for any of us to do so as professing Christians.

The opening post for the “thread topic” in itself confrontational.
We’re human.

Why take such umbrage with my quote that you posted above…it indeed does apply to us all…should it not?

---

I am going to try and stay away from the use of the “emoticons” as much as I can, as I agree with FranciscanGemma’s post below: (which I once again believes applies to EVERYONE)

FranciscanGemma
The problem with forums ( and also with emails) lies in the fact, that even with emoticons and such, we can’t always let someone know when we are being sarcastic, when we’re joking, or when we’re serious. I hate to use the now “over-used” cliche, but “perception is reality”. Peace.

 

[KLIBERA]

Pope John Paul Ii Recently Had Named Mary Co-redemptrix. Catholics Indeed Worship Mary As The Mother Of God. So Does The Eastern Orthodox Church. Okay Some People Use The Word Venerate. Protestant Sects Do Not See Any Viable Role In The Church For Mary. Recall That It Was God’s Revelation To The Church That Mary Be Known As The Immaculate Conception–note That Happened To The Catholic Church, Not The Protestant. Mary Was Not Considered Important As Far As Biblical Authors Go. Recall That The Bible Is A Book In Which Authors Competed For A Place In The Bible–it Was Deliberately Edited To Fit The Body Politic At The Time. It Is Not A Historical Record But Represents A School Of Thought. This Is Why The Bible Today Is Often Misused. If Mary Were Not So Special, Why Then Has She Appeared So Many Times To A Select Few People In The Last 2 Millenia & Have Great Cathedrals Built In Her Honor. Where Have Many Of The Sick Gone For Cures? Answer, Fatima, Lourdes, Knock, La Salette. The Most Important Piece However Rests In This Short Prayer Known As The Hail Mary-during The Course Of One’s Transcendence Into Death, We Ask For The Intercession Of Mary The Mother Of God To Plead Our Case For Salvation. This Is Done Because We Are Of Faith If We Can Find It In Ourselves To Plea For Her Intercession, Then The Son Of God Would Not Refuse His Own Mother.

 

[Soutane]

PLEASE do not use the word worship in association with Mary,as it needlessly confuses our separated brethren(and most apparantly,our sistren )

Leeann I urge you to reference the thread Catholics Only which is an informal poll consisting of the “worship” or non-worship of Mary.

(the following may be construed as sarcasm-repeat after me Catholics(99.999999%)do not worship Mary.Protestants(99.999999%)do not handle snakes and drink turpentine.

A group of very confused and ancient nuns were recently excommunicated for believing that the BVM was reincarnated in the person of a living woman and for failing to renounce this belief…

 

[RobHom]

Leeann, here is my take on the article:

***Mary: icon of the “Eucharistic” Church

1. “If we wish to rediscover in all its richness the profound relationship between the Church and the Eucharist, we cannot neglect Mary, Mother and model of the Church.” Thus does the sixth chapter of the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia exhort us, where John Paul II recalls the profound relation that Mary possesses with the Eucharist and with the Church that lives from the Sacrament of the altar. The encounter with “God with us and for us” includes the Virgin Mary.***

Here we have to consider that what is being discussed is the special bond and relationship between Mary and Christ, and that she was His mother on earth. She gave birth to Him, raised Him, and was with Him throughout His life and was there when He was crucified. Keep in mind that the “Eucharist” is Christ Himself.

The Year of the Eucharist is a favorable occasion to intensify our reflection on this facet of the Mystery. So as more profoundly to live the sense of the Eucharistic Celebration, in order that it mark our lives, there is no better way than to let oneself be “taught” by Mary, “woman of the Eucharist”.

This is to tell us that we have an excellent teacher in Mary, both by her pious willingness to serve God in bearing Christ, and serving as His earthly mother and dedicating her life to Him. A finer example is not to be found.

Apropos, it is important to remember what the Pope said in Rosarium Virginis Mariae n. 15, concerning the act of “being conformed to Christ with Mary”: she “enables us to enter naturally into Christ’s life and as it were to share his deepest feelings.” On the other hand – the Pope continues in Ecclesia de Eucharistia – in the Eucharistic Celebration, in a certain sense, we always receive, along with the memorial of the death of Christ, the gift of Mary, a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): “Experiencing the memorial of Christ’s death in the Eucharist also means continually receiving this gift. It means accepting – like John – the one who is given to us anew as our Mother. It also means taking on a commitment to be conformed to Christ, putting ourselves at the school of his Mother and allowing her to accompany us. Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist.” (Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 57).

This is a declaration of the Church’s stance that we cannot ignore all that Mary did for us, and that Christ gave her to us as our mother as well before he died on the cross. She and her memory are ever present with us, leading and guiding us by her example, by her devotion to her son who was God made man for us and our salvation.

Personally, I find nothing within the document that directs us to worship Mary, or even infers that we should. What the document tells me in toto, is that all is about Christ, the entire Mass, the Eucharist, Adoration, and all the rest.

What the document exhorts us to do…is to use Mary as our example in her love and devotion for Christ, and to learn from her the meaning of love and devotion. She is to be our example, our “role model” in our journey as Catholics.

**That is my opinion and it is not intended to reflect the opinions of the Church or anyone else… **

 

[Soutane]

Leeann, here is my take on the article:

*Mary: icon of the “Eucharistic” Church

1. “If we wish to rediscover in all its richness the profound relationship between the Church and the Eucharist, we cannot neglect Mary, Mother and model of the Church.” Thus does the sixth chapter of the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia exhort us, where John Paul II recalls the profound relation that Mary possesses with the Eucharist and with the Church that lives from the Sacrament of the altar. The encounter with “God with us and for us” includes the Virgin Mary.*

Here we have to consider that what is being discussed is the special bond and relationship between Mary and Christ, and that she was His mother on earth. She gave birth to Him, raised Him, and was with Him throughout His life and was there when He was crucified. Keep in mind that the “Eucharist” is Christ Himself.

The Year of the Eucharist is a favorable occasion to intensify our reflection on this facet of the Mystery. So as more profoundly to live the sense of the Eucharistic Celebration, in order that it mark our lives, there is no better way than to let oneself be “taught” by Mary, “woman of the Eucharist”.

This is to tell us that we have an excellent teacher in Mary, both by her pious willingness to serve God in bearing Christ, and serving as His earthly mother and dedicating her life to Him. A finer example is not to be found.

Apropos, it is important to remember what the Pope said in Rosarium Virginis Mariae n. 15, concerning the act of “being conformed to Christ with Mary”: she “enables us to enter naturally into Christ’s life and as it were to share his deepest feelings.” On the other hand – the Pope continues in Ecclesia de Eucharistia – in the Eucharistic Celebration, in a certain sense, we always receive, along with the memorial of the death of Christ, the gift of Mary, a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): “Experiencing the memorial of Christ’s death in the Eucharist also means continually receiving this gift. It means accepting – like John – the one who is given to us anew as our Mother. It also means taking on a commitment to be conformed to Christ, putting ourselves at the school of his Mother and allowing her to accompany us. Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist.” (Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 57).

This is a declaration of the Church’s stance that we cannot ignore all that Mary did for us, and that Christ gave her to us as our mother as well before he died on the cross. She and her memory are ever present with us, leading and guiding us by her example, by her devotion to her son who was God made man for us and our salvation.

Personally, I find nothing within the document that directs us to worship Mary, or even infers that we should. What the document tells me in toto, is that all is about Christ, the entire Mass, the Eucharist, Adoration, and all the rest.

What the document exhorts us to do…is to use Mary as our example in her love and devotion for Christ, and to learn from her the meaning of love and devotion. She is to be our example, our “role model” in our journey as Catholics.

**That is my opinion and it is not intended to reflect the opinions of the Church or anyone else… **

Thanks Robbie:thumbsup:

 

[RobHom]

Thanks Robbie:thumbsup:

Your welcome…but I am but a humble servant…

 

[JonNC]

(the following may be construed as sarcasm-repeat after me Catholics(99.999999%)do not worship Mary.Protestants(99.999999%)do not handle snakes and drink turpentine.

Burrp. Get down, Rattles. That’s my drink. Be a good snake.

 

[fidesquaerens]

Pope John Paul Ii Recently Had Named Mary Co-redemptrix. Catholics Indeed Worship Mary As The Mother Of God. So Does The Eastern Orthodox Church. Okay Some People Use The Word Venerate. Protestant Sects Do Not See Any Viable Role In The Church For Mary. Recall That It Was God’s Revelation To The Church That Mary Be Known As The Immaculate Conception–note That Happened To The Catholic Church, Not The Protestant. Mary Was Not Considered Important As Far As Biblical Authors Go. Recall That The Bible Is A Book In Which Authors Competed For A Place In The Bible–it Was Deliberately Edited To Fit The Body Politic At The Time. It Is Not A Historical Record But Represents A School Of Thought. This Is Why The Bible Today Is Often Misused. If Mary Were Not So Special, Why Then Has She Appeared So Many Times To A Select Few People In The Last 2 Millenia & Have Great Cathedrals Built In Her Honor. Where Have Many Of The Sick Gone For Cures? Answer, Fatima, Lourdes, Knock, La Salette. The Most Important Piece However Rests In This Short Prayer Known As The Hail Mary-during The Course Of One’s Transcendence Into Death, We Ask For The Intercession Of Mary The Mother Of God To Plead Our Case For Salvation. This Is Done Because We Are Of Faith If We Can Find It In Ourselves To Plea For Her Intercession, Then The Son Of God Would Not Refuse His Own Mother.

Okay I’m a theologian and I have MANY issues with this post - even though it may have been shared with the best of intentions. Paul II did not recently name Mary as co-redemptrix - this was one of the [many] names the Catholic Church used for her for many years. In fact, because of the mass confusion over this name amongst followers (some sects have broken away from the Church because of their worship of Mary) the Vatican II council had the name of Mary as co-redemptrix not exactly removed but refrained from being used. As for the rest of your statement it completely denies any authority or authenticity the Bible holds for us…I suggest you study more Catholic theology so you don’t give more fuel for this fire of ecumenical misunderstandings

 

[adrift]

Say whatever you want about it, you are spewing venom at my church. Your opinion on Anglican Orders is your opinion. There is much to back up Anglican Orders as valid and you know it. Your aren’t naive. Using the terms traitor and turn coat were never used by me to describe you and your faith but yet you use them on me multiple times and then say that it is not uncharitable. You are not being real here. Stop the hatred James!

I found this post ironic. I have never been derogatory towards your faith yet you have spewed venom about my faith.

Dismissing what you cannot cover up or make excuses for is considered just merely ignorance on the part of Protestants. That’s one of the oldest schemes in the book.

The opinion on Anglican Orders is what has been decreed by our Church. I think you need to follow your own advise and use more charity yourself before you start telling others to.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Are You Talking To Me Or Some One Else

 

[CentralFLJames]

Say whatever you want about it, you are spewing venom at my church. Your opinion on Anglican Orders is your opinion. There is much to back up Anglican Orders as valid and you know it. Your aren’t naive. Using the terms traitor and turn coat were never used by me to describe you and your faith but yet you use them on me multiple times and then say that it is not uncharitable. You are not being real here. Stop the hatred James!

I was going to let it go SIA but you keep making inaccurate statements and trying to project the idea that I am only expressing a personal opinion. Which is not the case. But how odd for an Anglican to not value a personal opinion anyway since the whole Anglican “system” is formed on individual consent in an “anything goes sort of faith”. Your Anglican bishop as an equal has no binding authority over the individual. Those sitting side by side in the pews can think and believe most anything they want to - one believing real presence, another symbol and another there for crackers and grape juice and fellowship. Anglicanism looks to me more like a self-contradictory organized-anarchy than anything else (a sort of philosophical quivering conglomerate-jello of personal belief held somewhat upright and in place with a bundle of rubber bands). You must admit this is closer to the truth than not yes?

The reason I referenced Apostolicae Curae was to dispel your view that I am only expressing my own opinion more so than it was directed at pressing you on other matters. The Bull is the highest and most authoritative proclamation that The Catholic Church has ever put forward against the errors of Anglicans explicitly (other than the general anathematization of Protestantism’s most prominent teaching heresies at large). It’s not merely my opinion it is official proclamation and therefor part of my faith (of what is in error and to be avoided).

As you know without a priesthood Catholics simply do not even recognize Anglicans as a “Church” - only as an “ecclesial community” (really, not much different than a club of like minded believers and religious hobbyists). We can’t call it a church simply because there can be only “One Christian Church”. Catholics from our successive unbroken apostolic succession know it to be The Catholic Church (though we accept Orthodox Catholics as a legitimate and as substantially part of us even though there is a strained relationship).

And don’t kid yourself. Your silence in not reciprocating the same words against me or Catholics at large is less a matter of charity as it is an admission that you have no case and would appear foolish attempting it.

Unlike Anglicans, Catholics never left ourselves (the Catholic Church) therefor can’t be traitors can we? We still remain obedient to the ecclesial office of Peter’s Chair that sits in Rome. It is the members of the original Ecclesia Anglicana branch of the Catholic Church (Anglicans) who elected fealty to their secular King and new self appointed head of church over the pope and turned their backs on the Catholic Church. You are at least conscious of this historical fact and can admit it is accurate yes? That is not being a traitor to “the King” but from the Catholic perspective it is certainly being a traitor to The Church and therefor owing to the inseparable nature of Church with Christ – also to the head of The Church – which is Christ ( “those that reject you reject Me and He who sent Me.”).

In your Anglican Protestant eyes would you think it is inaccurate to call American Protestants traitors for fleeing their homeland and tyrannical King and Protestant head of Church to come to America? Are the terms “rebel” and “maverick” a better, more charitable or more accurate term?

I will add here that in afterthought it is not surprising to me in the least that you are so sensitive to the term “traitor” even though its accurate from the Catholic perspective. Your ingrained monarchical social conditioning to “be a good subject (… or else)” makes the word among the most loathsome to the good senses of a “proper” and loyal British citizen; loyal to crown and country above all else (even Church?). No doubt the historical tortures of “the rack” have also imparted a certain long lasting genetic imprint on the the descendants of the proper subjects of the state as well . If so then the sensitivity is now genetic and I can offer no platitudes to remedy it - sorry. I am assuming of course that you are British Anglican. If not, then no insult implied by “British” if you happen to be sensitive to that word too ?

God save The Queen and restore The Church from the secularists; and may He wake up those Christians who are in self-denial and living in fantasies of charmful pastoral “days of yore” that never were – before the Mohammedans complete their siege from the inside out.

James

 

[Soutane]

Burrp. Get down, Rattles. That’s my drink. Be a good snake.

Bwahahahahahaha

 

[SIA]

I was going to let it go SIA but you keep making inaccurate statements and trying to project the idea that I am only expressing a personal opinion. Which is not the case. But how odd for an Anglican to not value a personal opinion anyway since the whole Anglican “system” is formed on individual consent in an “anything goes sort of faith”. Your Anglican bishop as an equal has no binding authority over the individual. Those sitting side by side in the pews can think and believe most anything they want to - one believing real presence, another symbol and another there for crackers and grape juice and fellowship. Anglicanism looks to me more like a self-contradictory organized-anarchy than anything else (a sort of philosophical quivering conglomerate-jello of personal belief held somewhat upright and in place with a bundle of rubber bands). You must admit this is closer to the truth than not yes?

The reason I referenced Apostolicae Curae was to dispel your view that I am only expressing my own opinion more so than it was directed at pressing you on other matters. The Bull is the highest and most authoritative proclamation that The Catholic Church has ever put forward against the errors of Anglicans explicitly (other than the general anathematization of Protestantism’s most prominent teaching heresies at large). It’s not merely my opinion it is official proclamation and therefor part of my faith (of what is in error and to be avoided).

As you know without a priesthood Catholics simply do not even recognize Anglicans as a “Church” - only as an “ecclesial community” (really, not much different than a club of like minded believers and religious hobbyists). We can’t call it a church simply because there can be only “One Christian Church”. Catholics from our successive unbroken apostolic succession know it to be The Catholic Church (though we accept Orthodox Catholics as a legitimate and as substantially part of us even though there is a strained relationship).

And don’t kid yourself. Your silence in not reciprocating the same words against me or Catholics at large is less a matter of charity as it is an admission that you have no case and would appear foolish attempting it.

Unlike Anglicans, Catholics never left ourselves (the Catholic Church) therefor can’t be traitors can we? We still remain obedient to the ecclesial office of Peter’s Chair that sits in Rome. It is the members of the original Ecclesia Anglicana branch of the Catholic Church (Anglicans) who elected fealty to their secular King and new self appointed head of church over the pope and turned their backs on the Catholic Church. You are at least conscious of this historical fact and can admit it is accurate yes? That is not being a traitor to “the King” but from the Catholic perspective it is certainly being a traitor to The Church and therefor owing to the inseparable nature of Church with Christ – also to the head of The Church – which is Christ ( “those that reject you reject Me and He who sent Me.”).

In your Anglican Protestant eyes would you think it is inaccurate to call American Protestants traitors for fleeing their homeland and tyrannical King and Protestant head of Church to come to America? Are the terms “rebel” and “maverick” a better, more charitable or more accurate term?

I will add here that in afterthought it is not surprising to me in the least that you are so sensitive to the term “traitor” even though its accurate from the Catholic perspective. Your ingrained monarchical social conditioning to “be a good subject (… or else)” makes the word among the most loathsome to the good senses of a “proper” and loyal British citizen; loyal to crown and country above all else (even Church?). No doubt the historical tortures of “the rack” have also imparted a certain long lasting genetic imprint on the the descendants of the proper subjects of the state as well . If so then the sensitivity is now genetic and I can offer no platitudes to remedy it - sorry. I am assuming of course that you are British Anglican. If not, then no insult implied by “British” if you happen to be sensitive to that word too ?

God save The Queen and restore The Church from the secularists; and may He wake up those Christians who are in self-denial and living in fantasies of charmful pastoral “days of yore” that never were – before the Mohammedans complete their siege from the inside out.

James

Just more insults, more unsubstantiated rhetoric and more hatred coming from someone who supposedly put me on ignore. I didn’t believe you when you said it. You carry on like someone who has a valid point to make but yet you don’t. You just drag on and on about the papal decrees that declare Anglicans as invalid and how your church is the only true Church of Christ. There is nothing that declares this outside of your church, NOTHING. I dismiss any notion of possible truth associated with the useless played out garbage that you continue to spew in hate against me and any other Protestants here. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know many Catholics who would be utterly embarrassed to be associated with the way in which you attack others.

 

[RobHom]

Burrp. Get down, Rattles. That’s my drink. Be a good snake.

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: Good one Jon!!!

Hey, do you ever get the feeling that some of these threads end up being like a marathon game of "Whack-a-mole?