To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[David47]

Good Fella

Where in the bible does it say that **it is inspired **or contains all that Jesus ever said or did? Where does it say that anyone can privately interpret scripture? Last I read it said to obey what was TAUGHT to you - not what anyone wanted to read into it.

Was it these verses?

**John 21:25 **
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

See the previous Chapter 20.

John 20 : 30 - 31

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John ends the **preceding Chapter 20 with an extremely similar **closing as to the one line from Chapter 21 that you posted….and he goes on to explain the **purpose and the importance **of what has been recorded. This in no way supports that **the other things **that Jesus did, have been passed on by “tradition” over the years to the Catholic Church….it simply clarifies why some were written down, and not all of them **could be written down **…as there were simply too many too make record of.

As to the being “inspired”… the whole bible……

2 Peter 1: 3 -4:

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Would it be safe to assume that **the Apostles **were being **divinely inspired **in all they said and wrote, including their letters/books that became part of the New Testament.

…and…

2 Timothy 3: 15 - 17

15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 **All Scripture **is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul wrote instructing and encouraging Timothy, referring to the holy Scriptures that he knew from his childhood – telling him that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” – inspired –meaning the Old Testament.

The Old and New Testaments = the Bible ** ”Inspired” **

As for “interpretation” of the Scriptures …once again the one verse that you’ve quoted below, when read in full context with the preceding verses….shows that Peter is backing up his and the other Apostle’s teachings by describing how they were eyewitnesses – as way of confirming that they have a “more sure word of prophecy” and that should be kept in mind. He goes on to bring to remembrance that none of the prophecies in the old time came by “man”, but holy men moved by the Holy Ghost, which also adds credence to the Apostle’s claims. To quote just the “one” verse - misses what Peter was attempting to explain at that time about the old Scripture prophecies.

The one verse you quoted:
**2 Peter 1:20 **
“But know this first of all, that (B)no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…”

The other verses added:

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;** whereunto ye do well that ye take heed**, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 **For the prophecy came not in old time **by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You don’t honestly believe that every person who is a member of the RCC has Jesus living inside them, do you? Do you believe they are all saved?

Have I ever said anything that would lead you to think that I believe this?

Now could you answer this question:

Which position best explains where you are coming from;

-Catholics are Christian who differ in what you believe to be “secondary” issues or
-Catholics, if saved, are done so despite their Catholic faith

God bless you

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella
Where in the bible does it say that it is inspired or contains all that Jesus ever said or did? Where does it say that anyone can privately interpret scripture? Last I read it said to obey what was TAUGHT to you - not what anyone wanted to read into it.

Was it these verses?

**John 21:25 **
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

**2 Peter 1:20 **
“But know this first of all, that (B)no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…”

See the previous Chapter 20.

John 20 : 30 - 31

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John ends the preceding Chapter 20 with an extremely similar closing….and goes on to explain the purpose and the importance of what has been recorded. This in no way supports that the **other things that Jesus did **have been passed on by “tradition” over the years by the Catholic Church….it **clarifies why some **were written down, and that not all of them **could be written down **as there were simply too many too make record of.

As to the being “inspired”…the whole bible……

2 Peter 1: 3 -4:

3 According as **his divine power hath given unto us all things **that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Would it be safe to assume that the Apostles were being divinely inspired in all they said and wrote, including their letters/books that became part of the New Testament.

2 Timothy 3: 15 - 17

15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul wrote instructing and encouraging Timothy, referring to the holy Scriptures that he knew from his childhood – telling him that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” – inspired – meaning the Old Testament.

**The Old and New Testaments = the Bible is ”inspired”.**

As for “interpretation” of the Scriptures …once again the one verse that you’ve quoted below, when read in full context with the preceding verses….shows that Peter is backing up his and the other Apostle’s teachings by describing how they were eyewitnesses – as way of confirming that they have a “more sure word of prophecy” and that should be kept in mind. He goes on to bring to remembrance that none of the prophecies in the old time came by “man”, but holy men moved by the Holy Ghost.

the one verse you posted:
**2 Peter 1:20 **
“But know this first of all, that (B)no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…”

Now with all the verses:

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by SIA **
i don’t know what more to say to you James other than the fact that you are just flatly wrong. You cannot back up your faith with Scripture. You cannot defend it with Scripture other than to attempt to creat the illusion of Scripture being equal with the magisterium and tradition. You obviously believe that they can actually trump Scripture because in your church, They Did.

Response adrift:
Since Scripture came from the Church, it supports our faith.

Since Scripture came from God…it supports HIS Church…the body of all true and faithful believers who believe in what it says and who worship Him in Spirit and Truth….no matter what denomination or church they belong too.

The Church existed before the New Testament.

God existed before the Catholic Church……and HIS Church, that being the body of all true and faithful believers truly did exist before the Catholic Church or the New Testament books were compiled….the early “churches” had the O.T/and the epistles were circulating.

The Church was teaching the Gospel before it was written.

HIS Church…the disciples He sent out and the Apostles He commissioned, were teaching the gospel message before it was written….not the Catholic Church.

 

[Leeann]

CentralFlJames

Observe that the apostles teach us to have nothing to do with those who reject the handed down teachings and from those that elect their own self-reasoned teachings.

Observe that this can also be said and held to be true for Non-Catholics who view the “handed down teachings” that the Catholic Church have developed over the years, as not being the same as what the Apostles originally taught.

CentralFlJames

Salvation is taught - not bought in a book store.

???

CentralFlJames

There is no valid concept of “Christianity” in a plurality of faiths and denominations.

Sure there is….you just don’t understand it.

CentralFlJames

Make no mistakes here. There is only one true complete faith. The legion of partial-truth faiths calling themselves Christian do not merit the Body of Christ but inflict damage and suffering to it - which is The One True Church.

Once again…the same can be said in the reverse by Non-Catholic believers who believe that the Catholic Church (as you call - the One True Church) is inflicting damage and suffering on the Body of Christ (all true and faithful believers who worship Him in Spirit and Truth) by trying to usurp HIS authority and HIS Grace.

 

[Leeann]

CentralFlJames (response to David47)

I also agree with you there is one true complete faith and that is in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But the part that many non-Catholics often fail to discern in scripture is that Jesus is also One with His Church and when He says I am the way the truth and the life - that way goes right through the front door of the Catholic Church through the altar and the eucharist and through the narrow doorway of the cross to heaven. Jesus puts himself right on the cross in the sacrifice of the Catholic mass and **there is no way to get through Christ **without coming through His Church - His Bride.

What Gospel is this……the Gospel according to CentralFlJames?

Where does Jesus ever say that you must “come through My Church (specifically the Catholic Church)– My Bride” in order to “get through Him” ???

Or is this one of those things that He neglected to mention to the Apostles when He commissioned them to go out and preach the gospel message of salvation to all mankind - something that “tradition” would take care of later on down the line perhaps???

What you’ve stated above borders on blasphemy to say the least……and is REALLY an eye opener to whatever “truth” is being taught if this is what you believe.

“Another gospel” perhaps.

CentralFlJames….my heart goes out to you….after reading a number of the posts that you have recently placed here, their contents and your understanding of the scriptures and the misapplication of those in relation to what you say the Catholic Church teaches…I’ll keep you in prayer.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You have it right, David. The RCC really comes out of the closet when they reveal their teaching on Mary regarding her role as Mediatrix, and the notion that she is the one through whom God’s grace flows. They ascribe salvific value to her! Make no mistake about it, it IS worship. And it is idolatry. How could you NOT worship someone like that? They are obssessed with her, and I will say it again, MARY IS MORE POPULAR THAN JESUS. Prove me wrong. I’ll bet her name is mentioned in prayers more than His, I’ll bet more is said about her than about Him, and she simply is more popular than Jesus in the Roman Church. And my friend, let that fact tell you a whole lot more about the supposed authority and superiority of the RCC. Let it pull back the curtain and reveal why their understanding of salvation by grace is so anemic, why they inject works and fear into their religion. It is because they do not understand the majesty of Christ in His person and His work on the cross.

Scripture never even comes close to elevating Mary in this way, nor did the apostles. To assign any salvific value to her is unspeakable. Take heed and learn from this error!

nbtb1348, Catholics have stated plainly that they do not worship Mary. Don’t you imagine if we did worship Mary we would be proud of that and be saying excitedly “yes we do!” rather than calmly saying “no, we love her and venerate her as the mother of God” if what you say is true?

So it seems to me you are the one in this topic stirring up fear and false charges. Catholics for the greater part are unlike the new sort of neo-Christians who imagine they can judge the interior state of most any-one’s souls including their own (e.g. “I am saved even though I still sin because ‘I believe’ and God can’t judge me”). We do not seek to judge others and presume upon theirs or anyone else’s interior state of grace nor imagine we can know what they think or believe. We know only God has that insight and that anyone who does try to judge spiritually joins himself to that other person’s sins and becomes part of them (read scripture some day if you doubt this).

So by mongering false witness, fear, contempt and hatred for Catholics in calling us false worshippers you place yourself in grave jeopardy of falling into the abyss. Now think about too, my focusing so much negativity you are also essentially doing by your own standards exactly the same thing you accuse Catholics of - worshiping idols. In this case the idol is your assumption of supremacy in interior judgment and also in the focus of hatred and contempt for Catholics.

Be warned brother least you be counted among the hippocrates.

“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter into My Kingdom.”

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

See the previous Chapter 20.
…

This in no way supports that the **other things that Jesus did **have been passed on by “tradition” over the years by the Catholic Church….

Please don’t put your own words into scripture nor into my mouth Leeann - that is on the first count blasphemous and on the second count deceitful. Private interpretation is illicit.

The complete and total Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself. This is why Catholics are Christ centered - not bible centered. The bible only contains that which was inspired to be written. But Catholics know that one must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God - and that includes the spoken words that are written in the flesh and spirit of Jesus himself - The Word Made Flesh. You do read scripture yes? Do you eat the Eucharist as The Lord commanded you or do you turn away as did the false-disciples in John **6:66 **who could not accept this teaching and turned their backs on Christ.

“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my Kingdom”.

Here is where the written word of God tells us that we are to follow the apostolic TEACHINGS by word AND by mouth - the latter through traditions.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.

Matt. 28:20 - “observe ALL I have commanded,” but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves “Bible alone” theology and theory

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.

1 Thess. 3:10 - Paul wants to see the Thessalonians face to face and supply what is lacking. His letter is not enough.

I can give you dozens more of scripture Leeann - but something tells me you only want to listen to those scripture bits that SEEM to support your unbiblical views. God invites you to read all of scripture but to prevent yourself from self delusion He wants you to LEARN scripture as it is properly taught by The Church ONLY. The Church has the apostolic authority to actually teach true meaning - individuals do not and in the OT times any that tried were stoned to death.

As to the being “inspired”…the whole bible……

2 Peter 1: 3 -4:
…

Peter’s account speaks nothing of the "whole bible’. Peter had no idea at all that his words would become NT scripture and therefor had no way to forward project that his words and the apostles to follow him (Paul and John in particular) would be adding to his words. So this verse is completely useless as a proof text for your theory. But ironically Catholics do not disagree with you that all OT and NT scripture is inspired. But we know this from our own teachings and traditions since The Catholic Church is the one who wrote, assembled and published the Bible. Non-Catholics forget that it was The Catholic Church which put the bible together to combat the deadly heresy of Marcionism (who wanted to do away with all OT writings and were making their own bible and came close to destroying and redefining Christianity in its infancy).

The bible you read today Leann is The Catholic Bible (unless you have the version that is a tithe light and missing 7 books that Luther removed since they did not support his false doctrines).

Would it be safe to assume that the Apostles were being divinely inspired in all they said and wrote, including their letters/books that became part of the New Testament.

2 Timothy 3: 15 - 17

Not at all safe to assume except from the current time. The problem Leeann is that there were many false writings and spurious works in circulation way back in the first 400 years of The Church. Many false disciples of the apostles were taking on their pen names and writing works that they were falsely ascribing to certain of their favorite apostles and it was very hard for the common Christian to discern the true from the false teachings. The Catholic Church in its wisdom and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit studied all the existing texts (over 300 of them - some inspired but the majority spurious and false works) and gleaned the wheat from the chaff. What you have in your NT is directly from the apostolic Church - The Catholic Church. You should thank us.

As for “interpretation” of the Scriptures …once again the one verse that you’ve quoted below, when read in full context with the preceding verses….
…

This is all interesting and tedious human theory Leeann but it does not track with history nor with fact nor with scripture nor with the true apostolic tradition that has been handed down to us for 2000 years. The only witness to the entire Jesus account anyone needs is seen in John 5:6-12.
1 John 5:6-12 - Three that bear witness to Christ:

This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. 7 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. 9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Response adrift:
Since Scripture came from the Church, it supports our faith.

Since Scripture came from God…it supports HIS Church…the body of all true and faithful believers who believe in what it says and who worship Him in Spirit and Truth….no matter what denomination or church they belong too.

The Church existed before the New Testament.

Correct - The Church existed before the New Testament in the 2nd person of God (Christ) and in the people that God was making into His own through the Jewish Nation. And you are correct to make the distinction that The Church is the body of faithful believers. You need to further qualify it though to make the distinction that faithfulness also means obedience to God’s commandments as TAUGHT by God’s representatives. In the OT that was the prophets and the priests/rabbis. In the NT it becomes the apostolic priesthood. But you go way to far and teach error in projecting that this implies multi-denationalization since that attempts to divide the body of Christ and is explicitly condemned by Jesus and the apostles both by oral teaching and by written word.

The Biblical Church has NO factions.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

I can give you dozens of more scripture verses to help you correct your non-biblical speculations Leeann.

God existed before the Catholic Church……and HIS Church, that being the body of all true and faithful believers truly did exist before the Catholic Church or the New Testament books were compiled….the early “churches” had the O.T/and the epistles were circulating.

The Church was teaching the Gospel before it was written.

HIS Church…the disciples He sent out and the Apostles He commissioned, were teaching the gospel message before it was written….not the Catholic Church.

Yes - of course God predates the Catholic Church. But you attempt to justify an invisible Church with multiple denominations does not square with scripture. Sorry - God disallows this. The apostles were the first bishops of the Catholic Church Leann. What apostle selected you or your preacher and gave you an apostolic authority to teach? The answer is - none did since you were not divinely selected by God to be an apostolic bishop or priest; nor was your minister who paid some secular divinity school to give him a diploma attesting with illicit authority that he was a man of God. One can not buy apostolic authority Leeann. If you read your bible you would know that this was forbidden and is called Simony. Catholics reject the Simony of Protestantism since your secular leaders are all self appointed and paid by their supporters to preach the non-apostolic teachings that they want to hear. This is not biblical. Sorry.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Observe that this can also be said and held to be true for Non-Catholics who view the “handed down teachings” that the Catholic Church have developed over the years, as not being the same as what the Apostles originally taught.

But since not a single Protestant or non-Catholic ever personally knew an apostolic successor who actually knew Jesus or an apostle personally you have no credible basis for making this unfounded charge do you? So by what possible standard do you know what was handed down? You have no context or history.

Is there a single Protestant who claims to have a 2,000 apostolic succession as Catholics have? No. So you have no credibility coming along 2000 years too late to claim that you have any specific historical knowledge of what the apostles actually taught. Catholics are the exact same Church with the same exact faith that originally was handed down to us by our forefathers (early Christians and apostolic bishops). We know what was taught since its our family tradition so to speak.

???
Sure there is….you just don’t understand it.

Sorry Leeann God’s word has already pulverized this false teaching. Read the prior posts. There is no “Gospel of Leeann” in my bible that says Jesus ever taught factions and divisions. This is blasphemy and heresy.

Once again…the same can be said in the reverse by Non-Catholic believers who believe that the Catholic Church (as you call - the One True Church) is inflicting damage and suffering on the Body of Christ (all true and faithful believers who worship Him in Spirit and Truth) by trying to usurp HIS authority and HIS Grace.

But the evidence convicts this illusion as false. It is not Catholics who started a revolution against ecclesial authority. No where in the bible is there ever a case made to warrant revolution within God’s Church. Luther and the Reformers had no scriptural precedence to rebel against The Church under a false banner of “serving God”. One does not serve God or Church by tearing down the bulwarks of faith in the Church and by trying to reinvent it 1500 years later just to suit their own tastes and appease their scrupulous minds. The Church nor God is served by tearing out a tithe of scripture (7 books) and inserting all new words into the bible to change the original apostolic teaching (“faith alone” is a human fabrication). No, this rebellion was unprecedented in both the OT and the NT times. In the OT times anyone who attempted what Luther attempted would have been stoned to death to reinforce that the law written on stone condems them and brings destruction down on their heads. In the NT times The Church, The Catholic Church. was more merciful and did not seek vengeance at that same level of OT severity and has left the door open for those will eventually comet to their senses and repent. Those that do not remain outside the protection of the flock at grave risk to their eternal souls and are easy prey to the wolves in sheep’s clothing spewing lies from the pulpit for a fee.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

What Gospel is this……the Gospel according to CentralFlJames?

Where does Jesus ever say that you must “come through My Church (specifically the Catholic Church)– My Bride” in order to “get through Him” ???

Or is this one of those things that He neglected to mention to the Apostles when He commissioned them to go out and preach the gospel message of salvation to all mankind - something that “tradition” would take care of later on down the line perhaps???

What you’ve stated above borders on blasphemy to say the least……and is REALLY an eye opener to whatever “truth” is being taught if this is what you believe.

“Another gospel” perhaps.

CentralFlJames….my heart goes out to you….after reading a number of the posts that you have recently placed here, their contents and your understanding of the scriptures and the misapplication of those in relation to what you say the Catholic Church teaches…I’ll keep you in prayer.

Leeann, this is not a new gospel. This is just personal expression of a scriptural fact expressed in a vernacular that will help you provoke you into digging deeper into scripture to see a more holistic message - an apostolic teaching. The teaching is very clear - Jesus and The Church are inseparable.

Surely you are not ignorant of the account of the apostle Paul’s conversion are you?

*Acts 9:4 Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" *

There is no room for equivocation to be made here - Jesus identified Himself intimately and personally with The Church.

There is lot more in scripture too Leeann if you really want to understand:

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. “Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

Therefor most anything that Jesus teaches about Himself and what we must do applies equally to The Church.

And the reason we know it is the Catholic Church is because we are the same Catholic Church that has always existed since the first day of pentecost - a perfection of the OT Church reformed by God Himself. The Catholic Church (and our estranged Orthodox brethren) is the only Church on the planet that obeys everything that Jesus commands - loosing and binding of sin, baptising in His name, healing the sick (both sin and bodily), teaching the true gospel, effecting the sacrament of the eucharist, feeding and caring for the poor, widows and prisoners, etc.). Do you know of any non-Catholic “churches” that loose and bind sin AND do all these other things Leeann? It’s a rhetorical question since I know that none do - though some few of them attempt to do a subset of these things illicitly with no valid apostolic priesthood.

Also note that in John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 we have explicit accounts of Jesus’ creation of Peter’s office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father. Are you trying to claim that Linus, Cletus, Clement and the successive popes were Protestant?

The Church is also the final earthly authority in all matters relating to Christian teaching. Note that in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

James

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am new to these forums after finding this thread. I was raised a Protestant and married a Catholic almost 13 years ago. I had originally not been looking to convert, but have decided to look into the Catholic faith recently. I have been taking my time and there are only a few issues which still hold me back from full conversion.

I’m sure you can figure out what the main one is and that it’s why I am posting on this thread first.

From what I have seen, Catholics pray to Mary. Now, it was always my understanding that means “worship”. I guess maybe it’s my limited understanding of the Catholic mindset that allows you to pray to Mary and not be worshiping her. Now in addition to the praying, there are also all of the images of her. To me, as an outsider, it appears that there is way more adoration of Mary due to the difference in the amount of imagery of Mary compared to the imagery of Jesus. Why is there only one real image of Jesus in a Catholic’s home, yet in the homes I have seen, there are numerous images and statues of Mary? It appears to me that Catholics hold Mary in a higher regard than Jesus.

Just look at the post on the 10th of January (by luis_rcoelho) that said that “Mary will defeat Satan”. Revelations teaches us that it is Jesus and his army that will defeat Satan. How is it that there can be such misunderstanding (on my part as well)?

if you are willing you may listen here.
catholicaudio.blogspot.com/2009/01/one-true-faith.html
go to john and revelation. i think it will give you some understanding.

God bless.

 

[withwind]

Your wrong. Luther jumped off the wagon before it went over the cliff.

The Catholic Church still survives! and will be triumphant!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIA
Your wrong. Luther jumped off the wagon before it went over the cliff.

i remember something about this… humnnnn… oh yes…that was when St Paul was in the ship with his persecuters. the storm came, and ST Paul said to everyone stay in the ship, if anyone leave he would die. there you have it…

 

[Soutane]

I dont know what **** means but it does not seem very Christ like at all. However coming onto a Christian website that is open to all will encourage many different opinions. If you wish to meet with the one you disagree with maybe you should agree to meet them in a back alley somewhere.

mmm should it be your wrath or Gods wrath? He does know what goes on here whether people admit it or not

two or three wrongs dont make it right

I do not presume to lecture, just telling it like it is, if you consider that lecturing then so be it. There are many if not thousands of people reading all posts in this forum( lurkers), many are searching for an answer, your posts will have an affect on how they see Chritianity as a whole. I guess when I read venom, bigotry,traitor et al it does not read well, dont get me wrong I am not saying that you Soutane said all of these things but you certainly add fuel to the fire.
As far as YOUR ox being gored ---- I dont really know what you mean. However as Christians we all ( and yes me too) have a lot to apologise for. And I guess as far as goring goes we all get that at times. Sometimes it happens but it should not happen between Christians, we all have a God who loves us and a Christ who died for us.

yours in Christ
David

---

Dear David before you criticise me please use the search function and peruse the erstwhile SIA’s posts.His posts were indeed venomous and were calculated to sting,annoy and vex.

He was finally banned for his unChristian behaviour here at CA.

I do not apologise for anything I have posted with regard to this odious anti-Catholic.As I posted before being Christ-like does not entail a willingness to be metaphorically kicked in the face repeatedly.Even Christ picked up a whip.

I refuse to allow my faith to be slandered,libeled,lied about,particularly when the guilty party has been corrected charitably on many occasions.I am sorry if I have offended your delicate sensibilities but if you’re going to be around here for any length of time,you had better develop a thicker skin.

I HAVE apologised when I’ve been wrong both publicly and privately.But not this time.

The back alley remark was cheap and uncalled for and in my opinion calculated to provoke.

Not exactly holier than thou are you?

 

[Soutane]

I think many Catholics do worship Mary, though they wouldn’t want to admit it and may not even realize they do.

Here we go again.CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.To worship the created is a mortal sin.You can’t worship Mary by ACCIDENT.

You are wrong and what you have posted is offensive.

How would you like it if I said that I think that you and most protestants do worship a book,the Bible but that they wouldn’t want to admit it and may not even realise that they do.You would want to correct me charitably right.But after being charitably corrected I say I don’t believe you and keep insisting that you worship a created object,a book you might tend to get a little annoyed and perhaps think that I was bearing false witness against you.

Welcome to OUR world.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Oh my - SIA is banned!
He must have blown up and said something really bad here.

Poor confused guy - I liked him too.

James

 

[Soutane]

What do you mean by ‘proselytizing.’ Don’t you think every Catholic should be saved?

Careful.I certainly hope you are not here to effect that as that would most definitely come under the heading of “proselytizing.”

A Catholic or anyone else for that matter has a much greater opportunity for cooperating with Christ’s Grace and being saved within the Holy Catholic Church founded by Christ the Saviour upon Peter.

I’ll take my chances with the original 2000 year old Faith rather than with heretical Johnny-come-latelies(take your choice of over 33,000 varieties)who’ve only been around for 500 years and ALL founded by MEN.

To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348, Catholics have stated plainly that they do not worship Mary. Don’t you imagine if we did worship Mary we would be proud of that and be saying excitedly “yes we do!” rather than calmly saying “no, we love her and venerate her as the mother of God” if what you say is true?

So it seems to me you are the one in this topic stirring up fear and false charges. Catholics for the greater part are unlike the new sort of neo-Christians who imagine they can judge the interior state of most any-one’s souls including their own (e.g. “I am saved even though I still sin because ‘I believe’ and God can’t judge me”). We do not seek to judge others and presume upon theirs or anyone else’s interior state of grace nor imagine we can know what they think or believe. We know only God has that insight and that anyone who does try to judge spiritually joins himself to that other person’s sins and becomes part of them (read scripture some day if you doubt this).

So by mongering false witness, fear, contempt and hatred for Catholics in calling us false worshippers you place yourself in grave jeopardy of falling into the abyss. Now think about too, my focusing so much negativity you are also essentially doing by your own standards exactly the same thing you accuse Catholics of - worshiping idols. In this case the idol is your assumption of supremacy in interior judgment and also in the focus of hatred and contempt for Catholics.

Be warned brother least you be counted among the hippocrates.

“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter into My Kingdom.”

James

The reason it is not likely the RC’s are going to joyfully declare that they worship Mary is because they know it would be heresy and idolatry. We all have trouble admitting our idols. I tend to commit idolatry when it comes to certain football teams. I often don’t realize it until afterwards. How much more so with Mary.

 

[elvisman]

The reason it is not likely the RC’s are going to joyfully declare that they worship Mary is because they know it would be heresy and idolatry. We all have trouble admitting our idols. I tend to commit idolatry when it comes to certain football teams. I often don’t realize it until afterwards. How much more so with Mary.

Well, well, well - another ridiculous claim from a would-be “expert” on Catholicism.
**Unfortunately for you, you have no idea what you’re talking about. **Mary is not an “idol” to Catholics - she is our Mother.

Why all the anti-Catholicism in all of your posts, nbtb? Were you angered by a Catholic at some point in your life or is it just another case of really bad teaching from your minister or Sunday School teacher?