To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Leeann]

CentralfLJamesThe complete and total Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself. This is why Catholics are Christ centered - not bible centered. The bible only contains that which was inspired to be written. But Catholics know that one must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God - and that includes the spoken words that are written in the flesh and spirit of Jesus himself - The Word Made Flesh. You do read scripture yes? Do you eat the Eucharist as The Lord commanded you or do you turn away as did the false-disciples in John 6:66 who could not accept this teaching and turned their backs on Christ.

Here is where the written word of God tells us that we are to follow the apostolic TEACHINGS by word AND by mouth - the latter through traditions.

You are pulling out “single verses” – out of context of the whole, to apply them in support of practices that your church puts forth.

posted by CentralfLJames
*1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone. *

1 Cor. 11 V1- through….
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. (as already delivered)
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head….etc.

How does this mean that Paul “commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.”???

Interestingly enough, as you read further into the chapter, Paul goes on to remind them of how the practice of the last supper had already taught been taught to them.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread:
24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

No resemblance at all to what the Catholic Church does now.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The reason it is not likely the RC’s are going to joyfully declare that they worship Mary is because they know it would be heresy and idolatry. We all have trouble admitting our idols. I tend to commit idolatry when it comes to certain football teams. I often don’t realize it until afterwards. How much more so with Mary.

Or it could be because we don’t worship Mary

Whatever helps you sleep at night though.

We cover up our worship of Mary because we are afraid that it would be called heresy, and yet we have no problem with not affirming Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide… Both things that gets us the label of not only heretical but non-christian by people such as yourself…

God bless

 

[Leeann]

CentralfLJames

Matt. 28:20 - “observe ALL I have commanded,” but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves “Bible alone” theology and theory.

What this “proves” is your inability to be able to read and comprehend what Scripture says.
Non-Catholics also believe that the Apostles, when sent out by Jesus in Matt.28, did indeed observe** ALL** that He had commanded them to do, otherwise Christ would have been sending out the Apostles “short-handed”, without the ALL the necessary information that they needed for His mission.

And has already been pointed out with regards to **John 20:30 **and John 21:25 – when you read those verses in “**context” **– especially with **John 20: 31 ** - which for some reason you didn’t include, one can easily see WHY these “things” (not “teachings of Jesus” – but “miraculous things” that the Apostles had witnessed Him do)….are not recorded…there were simply too many of them….the reason not being, as you indicate “so there must be things outside of the Scripture that we must observe.”

John 20: 30 AND 31

30 And many other **signs truly did Jesus **in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

CentralfLJames:
Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever obeying Scripture alone.

Again “one verse” picked to support a claim for “tradition”? How do you derive that from the “context” of what is written below?

Phil 4: 6-9

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Context CentralFlJames….context!

 

[Leeann]

CentralfLJames:

1 Thess. 3:10 - Paul wants to see the Thessalonians face to face and supply what is lacking. His letter is not enough.

Of course he wants to see them face to face…let’s see this **“one ****verse” **you’ve picked out and read it in “context” with all of what Paul says and if indeed he considered his letter not to be enough…and why he longed to see them……

1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 and sent Timothy, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 that no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain.
6 But now when Timothy came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
7 therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
8 for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;
10 night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 to the end he may stablish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Sounds like Paul was doing exactly what he should have been doing, acknowledging and rejoicing in the news about their “faith and charity” and encouraging them by mentioning that he prayed endlessly for them and would by God’s direction/grace get to see them again, and goes on throughout his letter with all sorts of instructions for them….concluding by trusting and asking the Lord to do the following.

1 Thes 5 :V23-24

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

CentralfLJames

I can give you dozens more of scripture Leeann - but something tells me you only want to listen to those scripture bits that SEEM to support your unbiblical views.

**YOU **are the one with **“bits” **of scripture, as can be seen from all your previous posts – “one” verse at a time.

CentrallFJames
God invites you to read all of scripture but to prevent yourself from self delusion He wants you to LEARN scripture as it is properly taught by The Church ONLY.

Oh my …I sincerely hope that what you have displayed here by your scripture postings and understanding of them, is not an indication of how the Catholic Church is “properly teaching” it!

CentralfLJames
The Church has the apostolic authority to actually teach true meaning - individuals do not and in the OT times any that tried were stoned to death.

Are you threatening me…

Yes…but we are not in the OT times….we as Christians are “in Jesus” ….as you yourself stated in one of your last posts “The complete and total Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself.”…therefore it stands to reason that if the Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself and Jesus is in us as we are in Him…

 

[RobHom]

CASE BACK OPEN

There are a lot of Catholics who teach that Mary is a Mediatrix, with ‘salvific value.’ Make no mistake about it, it IS worship.

And you are merely continuing to keep the game of “Whack-a-mole” alive…

Frankly, it matters not a wit…if ONE MILLION Catholics do as you say. It matters not at all, even though you are expressing your opinion, and your opinion, unfortunately, doe not carry much weight in the grander scheme of things. To clarify the point, your opinion holds nearly as much water as my making the statement that all Protestants worship “Baal”. Now, frankly I would never make the statement, because I know its nonsense. I suspect you know your statement is nonsense as well…

But to cut through all the bovine fecal matter and other nonsense, the statement that a lot of Catholics teach something is of virtually no value, as there is no validity to it, as there is not a single wit of official dogma or direct teaching coming out of the Vatican with the imprimatur on it that makes anything of the notion an official Church teaching, thus anything of the notion that its a valid teaching…is nonsense, and redundantly alluding to it as being such is “disingenuous at best”.

Do yourself a favor and cease casting bait in a cesspool in the attempt to catch a fish… The only “trophy” you will catch there is one that you would never hang on your wall.

CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY, CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY, CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. Repeat that 1000 times, and if it hasn’t yet sunk in, repeat it 1000 more times, and if in the event that it still hasn’t sunk in…repeat until it does.

Repeated claims that we do, and that we commit idolatry makes almost as much sense as “barking at the moon” on a moonless night…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Leeann continued dialog with you on scripture interpretation is pointless.

You want to use the standard of sola scriptura and declare your interpretation as infallable and deny the Catholic Church, who’s members actually wrote NT scripture and assembled it into the bible their divinely appointed right to interpret it and teach it.

It comes down to pedigree Leeann. The Catholic Church has 2000 years of apostolic teaching - actual teaching handed down from the original apostles. The Catholic Church is “the teacher” not the student of every post-reformation neo-Christians with a bible and an opinion who comes 2000 years too late to have any context to have a clue about what they are talking about.

What is your pedigree? You have none - your opinion is worth about as much as the next person who picks up a bible in the bookstore, reads it then self proclaims themselves an expert.

Please…

This is precisely why Protestantism has over 32,000 seperate sects (and accelerating) all teaching different things and thinking the truth can be divided equally 32,000 ways and still be Christian. Nonsense - people are in most likely in hell for teaching these heresies.

Sorry - you are a going round and round like a broken record and I don’t even recognize the recording studio label as being legitimate…

James

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
As to the being “inspired”…the whole bible……

2 Peter 1: 3 -4:
…

CentralFJames

Peter’s account speaks nothing of the "whole bible’. Peter had no idea at all that his words would become NT scripture and therefor had no way to forward project that his words and the apostles to follow him (Paul and John in particular) would be adding to his words. So this verse is completely useless as a proof text for your theory.

No it is not completely useless. What it points out is that Peter was “inspired”…therefore his words and writings were “inspired”.
The fact that Peter didn’t “know” that his words would become NT scripture has no affect on whether they were inspired or not…it doesn’t change the words themselves.

CentralfLJames

But ironically Catholics do not disagree with you that all OT and NT scripture is inspired. But we know this from our own teachings and traditions since The Catholic Church is the one who wrote, assembled and published the Bible. Non-Catholics forget that it was The Catholic Church which put the bible together to combat the deadly heresy of Marcionism (who wanted to do away with all OT writings and were making their own bible and came close to destroying and redefining Christianity in its infancy).

Isn’t God wonderful….by His divine grace and wisdom, He used those faithful and true believers who had the necessary skills at that time to fulfill what He wanted done.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Would it be safe to assume that the Apostles were being divinely inspired in all they said and wrote, including their letters/books that became part of the New Testament.

2 Timothy 3: 15 - 17

CentralfLJames

Not at all safe to assume except from the current time.

Well if can you assume it now – under the guidance of the Catholic Church and acknowledge that the words of Peter and the Apostles are “divinely inspired” – it must be apparent to you that they were also “divinely inspired” right at the time they spoke them/wrote them - surely you’re not saying that they didn’t become inspired until the Catholic Church said so!

Originally Posted by Leeann
As for “interpretation” of the Scriptures …once again the one verse that you’ve quoted below, when read in full context with the preceding verses….
…
CentralfLJames

This is all interesting and tedious human theory Leeann but it does not track with history nor with fact nor with scripture nor with the true apostolic tradition that has been handed down to us for 2000 years. (Which in no way makes it incorrect….just not what you have been taught by the Catholic Church….)The only witness to the entire Jesus account anyone needs is seen in John 5:6-12.

Originally Posted by 1 John 5:6-12 - Three that bear witness to Christ
This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. 7 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. 9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.

If you truly believe the scripture you posted above from 1 John 5 – especially the underlined parts, you will note that there is no stipulation as to having to be a member of the Catholic Church as you implied in your previous post.

CentralFlJames Post #266
Jesus puts himself right on the cross in the sacrifice of the Catholic mass and there is no way to get through Christ without coming through His Church - His Bride.

 

[RobHom]

I think many Catholics do worship Mary, though they wouldn’t want to admit it and may not even realize they do.

Perhaps, and I say this in all charity and sincerity, maybe you should quit “thinking” so much about that which you do not actually know or understand… I would also suggest that you might actually benefit from listening to those of us, like myself that have been and are Catholics…in my case for over 58 years, since my birth, when we tell you that we do not worship Mary.

Any excesses of the few, do not condemn all. Its that simple.

Leeann…are you listening as well?

 

[Leeann]

CentralfLJames

The Biblical Church has NO factions.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Again – Matt 12:25 - one verse picked out to be applied to what you want it too support – however, once again it is totally taken out of context as to what Jesus was speaking about, that being by what authority he cast out demons.
The same in **Mark 3:25 **– Jesus in response to the scribes accusing Him of casting out demons by Beelzebub’s authority…Jesus goes on to warn them about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 11:17 **– exactly the same thing.

CentralFJames
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Yes…one Church…HIS Church of all true and faithful believers, no matter what denomination or church they belong too.

CentralfLJames
**John 10:16 **- Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

Into HIS Church - all true and faithful believers no matter what denomination or church.

CentralFJames
**John 17:21 **- Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

I can understand the need of the Catholic Church to claim these verses in this manner, in order to try and support their claim of being “The Church” - but the words that Jesus Himself say, in no way indicate that he is talking about “the visible unity of the Church (Catholic Church), as you state above. The notion that all true and faithfully believers “need” to be members of the Catholic Church in order to be able to obtain salvation - is something that they themselves have put forth over the centuries – not what Jesus taught or prayed for.

CentralfLJames
**Rom. 15:5 **- Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Who told you that…the Catholic Church?

5 Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of one mind one towards another, according to Jesus Christ:
6 That with one mind, and with one mouth, you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is saying that it is **indeed possible **to live in harmony with one another and overcome differences as long as we are “like-minded” according to Christ Jesus. This CAN and DOES happen and HAS been happening right from the beginning (as a whole reading of that Chapter you quoted will show)…if all true and faithful believers in Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His blood sacrifice, and resurrection are united in HIM and this is affirmed of by the Holy Spirit who dwells within them…then it is possible!

CentralfLJames
I can give you dozens of more scripture verses to help you correct your non-biblical speculations Leeann.

No doubt you can give me dozens of completely “out of context” – “one verse” snippets from scripture, but they would most likely prove to be as incorrect as any you have posted so far in regards to your application in attempting to support what the Catholic Church “wishes” were to be true.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Can somebody please tell me how a person can worship Mary and not know it???

You must think that Catholics are stupid. That we’re so dumb that we don’t ‘know’ that by having a statue of Mary in our house that we really worship her. Or that by saying the rosary we’re really worshipping her. We don’t know it but statues and rosaries are worship. Yeah, that’s it. That’s how we are worshipping Mary without knowing it.

 

[Seraphim25]

Point in case: Upon reading serveral but not all posts. I would agree that many do have grey areas concerning Mary. I however, am a catholic convert and didn’t grow up in any christian background. Though my parents fell prey into cults, as a young lad I lacked knowledge of God. Though I may believed in God, but nonethless did not know him. After, dispensing many insightful “intellectual” beliefs I found myself still in a void. An emptyness that I could not ignore. I didn’t know what it was but it was as if something was knocking on my door.

The biggest clue that came to me was when I was reading out of body experiences or (OBE’S) also known as astral projection I stumbled on a certian phrase that said “you are God” that hit me at the core. I knew that statement was false. I questioned it many times and even though it may have seemed as if I was wanting to except this, I could not. I said this is ludicrous for me to call myself God.

Then finally I picked up the bible and the minute I started reading it the first words were " I am the Lord, God almighty, maker of the heavens and Earth, and from it I formed you out of the Clay of the Earth. The second thing I read was as follows: I am the Lord God and their is no other God except me. And since back then I did have a profanity issue and shameful to this day used Gods holy name in Vain read: Those who use my name in vain do not know me. Now as you are reading this you might say wow that is a powerful three fold statement. Indeed it is and was back then; It struck me so unprofoundly I will even tell you I started to weep and cried out to God. And said My God, My God have mercy on me a sinner.

At once I felt a peace that I can’t write down here. For merely words can not tell you! But an inner peace and in an instant changed my life around!

You are probobly wondering what does my life story/conversion have anything to do with this post. I eventually came into the catholic church and trust me I have never sat in any doices to date that “worhsip” Mary. I now I will revel that my believes of Mary are not on par with the church. But I will say that in the bible God calls her Blessed! which she is! Secondly, back to the grey areas, People INCLUDING even Priests do need to be careful how they talk concerning Mary.

Example I was listening to 1450 catholic radio station and a priest was up set about some problem. He then went to a Mary statue knelt before it and literally demanded help from her DIRECTLY. Allegedly Mary helped him got the problem fixed and all was good. Wrong, so wrong that it made my stomach drop after hearing that story. I don’t think it is right to ask anybody except our father and Lord Jesus for help Directly. Now if he were to send Mary or one of the Apostles thats fine. But to DIRECTLY go to someone other than God himself is not correct. Paul aserts to this that says: :Bring ALL supplications and worries to God ONLY. There isn’t any other pro quos sort of speak about that verse. In fact that is the stated thesis through out the entire bible. So please Christians be careful to whom you ask for assistance.

 

[RobHom]

I’m here because I love God, I love His eternal word, and I love to share the truth of the cross with those who want to hear.

In truth, if you are wanting to “share” with those who want to hear, you should be open enough to realize and understand that there are those who actually already do believe in Christ, and while they have a different perspective than yours…it is absolutely no reason for you to persistently try to force your perspective on those who are not in the least receptive to your perspective. Thus it is incumbent upon you to understand that, and refrain from being abusive about your wanting to further your agenda.

I’m here because I was lost and on my way to hell, and God mercifully opened my eyes and I saw why Christ came to earth. I saw that God knew I could never live well enough to please Him, and that there was only one just sentence for me. But then I saw that Jesus took that sentence of death on the cross.

That is good for you. Though you have found your way to your satisfaction…have you realized that not a single one of us has sought you out to push our theology down your throat?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”–John 3:16

And so, since we do understand this, and believe it, along with all else in the Bible, the whole Bible, and all of the Bible, and yes even more than the Bible, because one cannot discount the writings of the Early Christian Fathers, and others as well… We are not lost sheep, nor are we on a path to Hell or anywhere else.

 

[Leeann]

CentralfLJamesThe apostles were the first bishops of the Catholic Church Leann.

It’s understandable that this is what you believe…as this is what the Catholic Church teaches.

CentralfLJames
What apostle selected you or your preacher and gave you an apostolic authority to teach? The answer is –none did since you were not divinely selected by God to be an apostolic bishop or priest; nor was your minister who paid some secular divinity school to give him a diploma attesting with illicit authority that he was a man of God.

God DID “divinely select” these people…bypassing the Catholic Church and its “claims” altogether….you’re not implying that God cannot and does not do whatever HE wants to do, to whomever HE wants to do it, whenever HE wants to do it and in whatever manner HE wants to do…even if YOU may not be able to understand it all?

CentralfLJames
One can not buy apostolic authority Leeann. If you read your bible you would know that this was forbidden and is called Simony. Catholics reject the Simony of Protestantism since your secular leaders are all self appointed and paid by their supporters to preach the non-apostolic teachings that they want to hear. This is not biblical. Sorry.

And one cannot “usurp” God’s authority and harness HIS grace and attempt to call it their own,
as the Catholic Church has attempted to do. That is not biblical either.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Observe that this can also be said and held to be true for Non-Catholics who view the “handed down teachings” that the Catholic Church have developed over the years, as not being the same as what the Apostles originally taught.

CentralfLJames
But since not a single Protestant or non-Catholic ever personally knew an apostolic successor who actually knew Jesus or an apostle personally you have no credible basis for making this unfounded charge do you? So by what possible standard do you know what was handed down? You have no context or history.
Is there a single Protestant who claims to have a 2,000 apostolic succession as Catholics have? No. So you have no credibility coming along 2000 years too late to claim that you have any specific historical knowledge of what the apostles actually taught. Catholics are the exact same Church with the same exact faith that originally was handed down to us by our forefathers (early Christians and apostolic bishops). We know what was taught since its our family tradition so to speak.

We **ALL **have God’s holy inspired word…the Scriptures….that’s a pretty good “standard”…if ANY church’s doctrines/teachings/claims - cannot be tested and proven to be true “against” HIS holy, inspired word….it is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Leeann

Once again…the same can be said in the reverse by Non-Catholic believers who believe that the Catholic Church (as you call - the One True Church) is inflicting damage and suffering on the Body of Christ (all true and faithful believers who worship Him in Spirit and Truth) by trying to usurp HIS authority and HIS Grace.

CentralfLJames
But the evidence convicts this illusion as false. It is not Catholics who started a revolution against ecclesial authority. No where in the bible is there ever a case made to warrant revolution within God’s Church.

But there is admonishment to not “heed any other gospel” other than what the Apostles had taught and preached….complete and full at that time….nothing added later….or “developed” over the years, especially when these practices can’t be tested against scripture.
And once again….it is only the Catholic Church’s claim…that it in itself IS God’s Church.

CentralfLJames

In the OT times anyone who attempted what Luther attempted would have been stoned to death to reinforce that the law written on stone condems them and brings destruction down on their heads. In the NT times The Church, The Catholic Church. was more merciful and did not seek vengeance at that same level of OT severity (except for that one time of the Inquisition maybe….) and has left the door open for those will eventually comet to their senses and repent. Those that do not remain outside the protection of the flock at grave risk to their eternal souls and are easy prey to the wolves in sheep’s clothing spewing lies from the pulpit for a fee.

In the NT times…The Church, HIS Church of all true and faithful believers, were led by the Apostles, who preached and taught the gospel message of salvation…based on HIS blood sacrifice and their need to have faith and believe in HIM…no mention of having to be a member of any the one CHURCH (the Catholic Church) BEFORE this could happen…or EVER happen.

 

[Leeann]

CentralfLJames:
Leeann, this is not a new gospel. This is just personal expression of a scriptural fact expressed in a vernacular that will help you provoke you into digging deeper into scripture to see a more holistic message - an apostolic teaching. The teaching is very clear - Jesus and The Church are inseparable.

Focus CentralfLJames…focus……The Church that you keep referring to (the Catholic Church)…is not the same church that the Apostles established when they walked the earth.

CentralfLJames
Surely you are not ignorant of the account of the apostle Paul’s conversion are you?

Acts 9:4 Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

There is no room for equivocation to be made here - Jesus identified Himself intimately and personally with The Church.

(not the “Catholic Church” however…)

CentralfLJames:
There is lot more in scripture too Leeann if you really want to understand:

This should be interesting…

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ. ( oh brother…no Church leaders mentioned at all…)

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. **“Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us. **

Are you SERIOUS! THAT”S what I’ve been trying to explain about HIS CHURCH (not the Catholic Church)– but all true and faithful believers (in spirit and faith) – what you may term “the invisible” church – but what in actuality is VERY VISIBLE and can be witnessed by all the world in the very lives, actions, words, deeds and bodies of every member of HIS BODY – regardless of what denomination or church he belongs too.

By your own words highlited above: ]“Church” does not mean a building of believers.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (and how would you know that without the SCRIPTURE VERSE YOU JUST QUOTED)

She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

God loves us so much that Jesus gave the Apostles HIS truth and all that was necessary for the “fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son” right then and there when He commissioned them and sent them out to baptize/preach and teach the gospel message of salvation…….HIS Church….of all true and faithful believers understand this message and understand that it was as complete and sufficient back then as it is now, without the proclamations and “developed dogmas” that the Catholic Church has incorporated over the centuries that “bind” people up again in rituals and man-made regulations….in order for them to obtain “the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.”

And the reason we know it is the Catholic Church is because we are the same Catholic Church that has always existed since the first day of pentecost - a perfection of the OT Church reformed by God Himself. The Catholic Church (and our estranged Orthodox brethren) is the only Church on the planet that obeys everything that Jesus commands - loosing and binding of sin, baptising in His name, healing the sick (both sin and bodily), teaching the true gospel, effecting the sacrament of the eucharist,) feeding and caring for the poor, widows and prisoners, etc.). Do you know of any non-Catholic “churches” that loose and bind sin AND do all these other things Leeann? It’s a rhetorical question since I know that none do - though some few of them attempt to do a subset of these things illicitly with no valid apostolic priesthood.

Sorry CentralFlJames – go back and read your own posting……Eph 5 Paul calls the church a mystery….see if you can get a clearer “holistic message” from it.

 

[Leeann]

Also note that in John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 we have explicit accounts of Jesus’ creation of Peter’s office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father. Are you trying to claim that Linus, Cletus, Clement and the successive popes were Protestant?

Are you imagining that by “claiming” it….makes it true…or claiming that the “accounts” are true…makes it so…as seen by your past attempts of applying bits of scripture to “uphold” Catholic Church practices and teachings….well….let’s just not go there CentralFlJames……

The Church is also the final earthly authority in all matters relating to Christian teaching. Note that in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith.

Again – mis-used – these verses aren’t a matter about “questions of the faith”….they are dealing with brothers/sisters within the church family who have disagreements against one another….and once again……this in no way supports that this is the “Catholic Church.”

Matt.18: 15 - 18

15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

CentralfLJames
She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Well some may say that the Catholic Church has taught things in error over the centuries that have not lead her members to the fullness of salvation……like “the theory of Limbo”, never “officially sanctioned” – however for years in the Catholic schools it WAS taught until quite recently where it’s been “altered”. Check out the Vatican Website –
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

One has to ask….why wasn’t it prevented?
**I’ll repeat again…

CentralFlJames….my heart goes out to you….after reading a number of the posts that you have recently placed here, their contents and your understanding of the scriptures and the misapplication of those in relation to what you say the Catholic Church teaches…I’ll keep you in prayer.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

Leeann - one final comment. This thread topic is about Marian worship - not a debate on the validity of the visible vs invisible church with multi denominations. So I am simply going to disengage discussing this here before the OP drift gets this thread closed.

The only final comment I will make here is to urge you to use some common sense. All of nature is a loud testament of order. God is order. Multi-denominationalism , sects and factions are the opposite of the natural order we see in Creation. God is order and although there is a valid principal of diversity in Nature that diversity still shares in a synergistic union that is constructive. A plurality of cross-competing Churches is anti-order - chaos. God is not Chaos. Christ is not disorder. Disorder is a sign of anti-Christ.

If God had wanted a plurality of Churches rather than a single universal church with a diversity of common faith members he would have started the church off with a rabble of people all speaking like in the tower of babel. You completely miss the holistic message of the bible where God progressively restores a fallen humanity to order. Pluralism of religious belief is anti-order and an anti-thesis to everything the bible teaches. God’s church is not as a demonic-legion of different teachings nor is it a tower of babel. It is a single monolithic church with common pillars of faith built on the cornerstone of Christ all speaking in the common spiritual lingua-franca of the Holy Spirit. Where there are many tongues there is one teaching - Christ The Living Word of God.

Your bible will not save you Leann - nor will circuitous argumentation. Only Christ saves and The Church is the instrument on earth by which Christ chooses to administer His grace. Come into the only Church on the planet with valid sacraments and get some - The Catholic Church.

Enough said. Now back to the original OP…

James

 

[Seraphim25]

What is the church? Define it for me! Thanks!

 

[Seraphim25]

Leeann - one final comment. This thread topic is about Marian worship - not a debate on the validity of the visible vs invisible church with multi denominations. So I am simply going to disengage discussing this here before the OP drift gets this thread closed.

The only final comment I will make here is to urge you to use some common sense. All of nature is a loud testament of order. God is order. Multi-denominationalism , sects and factions are the opposite of the natural order we see in Creation. God is order and although there is a valid principal of diversity in Nature that diversity still shares in a synergistic union that is constructive. A plurality of cross-competing Churches is anti-order - chaos. God is not Chaos. Christ is not disorder. Disorder is a sign of anti-Christ.

If God had wanted a plurality of Churches rather than a single universal church with a diversity of common faith members he would have started the church off with a rabble of people all speaking like in the tower of babel. You completely miss the holistic message of the bible where God progressively restores a fallen humanity to order. Pluralism of religious belief is anti-order and an anti-thesis to everything the bible teaches. God’s church is not as a demonic-legion of different teachings nor is it a tower of babel. It is a single monolithic church with common pillars of faith built on the cornerstone of Christ all speaking in the common spiritual lingua-franca of the Holy Spirit. Where there are many tongues there is one teaching - Christ The Living Word of God.

Your bible will not save you Leann - nor will circuitous argumentation. Only Christ saves and The Church is the instrument on earth by which Christ chooses to administer His grace. Come into the only Church on the planet with valid sacraments and get some - The Catholic Church.

Enough said. Now back to the original OP…

James

Everything you have stated is all that I agree with. However, just as I stated previously wanting to know the definitive definition of what Church means.

Please note that the “church” is defined by a group or groups of people in a community that attend a specific location in one body of worship. Also, note that the church in the bible and what the definition is do not include some type of magistrate or hierarchy that results in the meaning of “church”. We are the church of those in ONE body who believe, Love, Follow, Christ.

I myself do not rely on the Magistrate or even the Pope for my salvation. Just as you stated earlier that salvation only comes through Christ. That indeed is correct but also note: that salvation can be attained by ALL those who believe on the name of Jesus. NOBODY is exempted or excluded out of Gods grace outside of what you call the magistrate.

 

[Leeann]

Perhaps, and I say this in all charity and sincerity, maybe you should quit “thinking” so much about that which you do not actually know or understand… I would also suggest that you might actually benefit from listening to those of us, like myself that have been and are Catholics…in my case for over 58 years, since my birth, when we tell you that we do not worship Mary.

Any excesses of the few, do not condemn all. Its that simple.

Leeann…are you listening as well?

That’s something I’ve stated many times…over and over…since the beginning actually…that not ALL Catholic believers worship Mary, but that there are those who do.

 

[nbtb1348]

Leeann - one final comment. This thread topic is about Marian worship - not a debate on the validity of the visible vs invisible church with multi denominations. So I am simply going to disengage discussing this here before the OP drift gets this thread closed.

The only final comment I will make here is to urge you to use some common sense. All of nature is a loud testament of order. God is order. Multi-denominationalism , sects and factions are the opposite of the natural order we see in Creation. God is order and although there is a valid principal of diversity in Nature that diversity still shares in a synergistic union that is constructive. A plurality of cross-competing Churches is anti-order - chaos. God is not Chaos. Christ is not disorder. Disorder is a sign of anti-Christ.

If God had wanted a plurality of Churches rather than a single universal church with a diversity of common faith members he would have started the church off with a rabble of people all speaking like in the tower of babel. You completely miss the holistic message of the bible where God progressively restores a fallen humanity to order. Pluralism of religious belief is anti-order and an anti-thesis to everything the bible teaches. God’s church is not as a demonic-legion of different teachings nor is it a tower of babel. It is a single monolithic church with common pillars of faith built on the cornerstone of Christ all speaking in the common spiritual lingua-franca of the Holy Spirit. Where there are many tongues there is one teaching - Christ The Living Word of God.

Your bible will not save you Leann - nor will circuitous argumentation. Only Christ saves and The Church is the instrument on earth by which Christ chooses to administer His grace. Come into the only Church on the planet with valid sacraments and get some - The Catholic Church.

Enough said. Now back to the original OP…

James

If you want to continue to believe what you are saying, be sure to do two things:

1. Allow your leaders to have higher authority than the Word of God
2. Stay out of the millions of thriving Non-Catholic churches around the world. Their vitality and biblical faithfulness will mess with your dogma. (And by the way, I said “THRIVING” because there are millions of protestant churches that AREN’T thriving, where the gospel is not preached, even though they have a label over their door.)