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Napsack
Guest
That’s absolutely right.
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Napsack
Guest
OH, I am sola scriptura?? That’s sure news to me.
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nbtb1348
Guest
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I might take offense if I thought you had the capacity to form any rational and intentional premeditated malice. But you have so many contradictions here its clear that you lack this capacity so I can’t hold you accountable for whatever offense might have been taken had it been seen as deliberate rather than just a “care-less” attitude .
I can say that it is certainly interesting how you can so easily mix Catholic and Protestant beliefs together into one common potpourri as if each was just convenient variations of textures and tastes to add to the stock of opinions to be digested. But why arbitrarily reject some others as unsavory (the Early Church Fathers and mine for example?). Do you or don’t you relish opinions as you say you do?
As for me I can’t say that I think you have a very discerning or consistent taste. Taking in your potpourri the bologna together with the caviar while rejecting the integrative consensus of those who actually knew the disciples of Christ while biting the hand that took such efforts to spoon feed you those collective works seems irrational, inconsistent and undiscerning; or is it just mean? Admit it, you are no gourmet - but you do have your favorite flavors.
I am sure there are “well-meaning” hypocrites out there who are clueless that they contradict themselves when they say they like all opinions but when put to the test really prove that they esteem their own opinions over all all others. Do you imagine that the church of “Self” can get in the way of truth as much as “The Church” does? What principal do you point to that says one is better than the other; especially when you say you value all opinions? Sure I can see by your consistency how you have such great respect for opinions here.
Sorry you lost the soup bowl when you went non-linear on us. Your world is indeed flat afterall but its skewed on a tilt from the horizontal and everything slides your way to land in your lap under gravity. 
If you want to bring up your family’s personal suffering caused by the wars associated with the Protestant Revolution and associate it with Catholics then I suggest you blame it first on Luther or on the shameful loins of Henry the VIII (that could not bear to be girdled by divine laws of The Church). How many Catholic monks had their guts ripped from their bowels and seared on hot spits before their eyes by Cromwell and his torturers for failing to acknowledge The King as head of the English Church (The Carthusian Martyrs)? How many died during the Protestant Revolution from both sides - 100s of thousands? How many Protestants fled the tyranny of the head of the Protestant Church (England’s King) to colonize America? Your family was not the only to suffer.
You may believe that there are different paths to God and you might prefer your path and you may give a lip-service respect to The Church’s path and that of others - but how can you reconcile this with the truth that Jesus tells us plainly there is only one path? Jesus tells us explicitly that Peter is to be the rock of the Church and to shepherd His Flock along that path? I did not see any plurality in that did you?
*“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6 *
"He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” John 21:16
I am sorry that you are “not happy with those who consider their faith right and all the others wrong” but you must not be happy with Christ because he told us there is only one Church - “MY CHURCH”.
“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” Matthew 16:18
So Roy5, it seems scripture plainly tells us that there is only one path afterall in spite of your personal opinions. Yes? Or are you implying Jesus was just giving an opinion rather than an objective truth? Do you even accept that there is such a thing as objective truth Roy5?
I am saddened to see that you could not resist getting personal here and made a personal judgement about me. I now must point out that you contradicted yourself when you said: “I know you don’t have the same respect for individual opinions in the way that I do, but fortunately we have separation of church and state.” Then you disregarded the Church Fathers opinions and have not only disregarded my opinion you used it to judge me.
Well “Gosh” Roy5 - where is the “That’s interesting. Tell me more” part that you were boasting about in your prior self-righteous opinion of yourself?
You know what I really think of your opinion Roy5? With all the contradictions you have already shown I’d say your opinion is worth about as much as a tinker’s damn. Given inflation and all, that means it would not even buy you a “Thank You - God Bless” from a beggar looking for a free handout - much less 2 cent Parliament soup. And by the way - separation of Church and State is a myth. If you believe that then you believe that a person must leave all their values at home when they go to work for the government. Nor does that mean leave your common sense at home (no matter how frugal or modest of means) when you speak in public either to self proclaim your own self-righteous enlightenment.
Allow me at least to be polite ans say “thanks for your 2 cents”. But I will not be insincere and say I respect it any more than you respected mine. Sadly, it does not buy me anything to listen to your contradictions and this exchange is a waste of time.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Nbtb - I gave you more comprehensive scripture than you have probably ever read in your entire life. Admit it – you have never even read the OT and are afraid to come out of your fundamentalist shell to see anything more than the lie of “by faith alone” that you stubbornly cling to as it was a charm.
Is cowering to the truth rather than inquiring to its authenticity supposed to be a superior tradition to the Catholic tradition of appealing to reason? Come now. Is this the best you can do – flinging scripture, any convenient scripture you can fling, rather than asking questions or presenting rational rebuttal to what is presented?
It’s shameful to see people calling themselves Christians hiding behind rhetoric rather than being courageous and defending their faith with facts and rational dialog.
James
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Cathy
Guest
Dear fellow conversationalists. Please let us be civil. Let’s speak knowing that Jesus, our God, is watching us and loving each of us. Yes, we certainly must hate evil and lies, but we certainly must respect each other as precious and created in God’s image and likeness.
So let’s be on our best Sunday-go-to meetin’ or Sunday-go-to-Mass behavior, whichever applies, and say a prayer asking Holy Spirit to guide our thoughts and be the gatekeeper to our fingers as we type.
Let’s disagree agreeably, OK, brothers?
So let’s be on our best Sunday-go-to meetin’ or Sunday-go-to-Mass behavior, whichever applies, and say a prayer asking Holy Spirit to guide our thoughts and be the gatekeeper to our fingers as we type.
Let’s disagree agreeably, OK, brothers?
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Angels_Unaware
Guest
Cathy, you are correct, but at the same time I am see a huge difference between James and nbtb. One is forceful. The other is absurd, irrational, and prejudiced. One has arguments based on evidence, the other just has rhetoric, with responses that remind me of a fifth grader sticking out his tongue at the teacher.
That’s what I see, anyway.
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Non_Serviam
Guest
Perhaps you could tell me which one is which? I must admit as I read this thread I’m finding “absurd, irrational and prejudiced” seems to apply more and more to both of them.
If this thread got back to the OP and became less of a Catholic dogma free-for-all it might improve the tone of the discussion.
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Angels_Unaware
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Well, I haven’t heard him twist and mis-represent Protestant teachings, I haven’t heard him make unsubstantiated claims, and I haven’t seen him attempt to talk about things he doesn’t understand and then say in 10-point font THUS SAITH GOD.Perhaps you could tell me which one is which? I must admit as I read this thread I’m finding “absurd, irrational and prejudiced” seems to apply more and more to both of them.
If this thread got back to the OP and became less of a Catholic dogma free-for-all it might improve the tone of the discussion.
He has very thorough explanations that are supported. Do you see something different?
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Non_Serviam
Guest
Here’s an even twenty unsubstantiated claims in one of his posts (split in 2 posts because of size), to say nothing of the tone of the claims. James has some very good points at times, but often presents the impression that simply proclaiming the “rightness” of Catholicism proves whatever he wants it to. Using the same tone and tactics as some of the non-Catholics on here, does little to nothing to earn him a hearing from the others who wish to discuss things in a civil fashion.
(continued in next post)I might take offense if I thought you had the capacity to form any rational and intentional premeditated malice. But you have so many contradictions here its clear that you lack this capacity (1) so I can’t hold you accountable for whatever offense might have been taken had it been seen as deliberate rather than just a “care-less” attitude (2).
I can say that it is certainly interesting how you can so easily mix Catholic and Protestant beliefs together into one common potpourri as if each was just convenient variations of textures and tastes to add to the stock of opinions to be digested(3). But why arbitrarily reject some others as unsavory (the Early Church Fathers and mine for example?). Do you or don’t you relish opinions as you say you do?
As for me I can’t say that I think you have a very discerning or consistent taste. Taking in your potpourri the bologna together with the caviar while rejecting the integrative consensus (4) of those who actually knew the disciples of Christ (5) while biting the hand that took such efforts to spoon feed you those collective works seems irrational, inconsistent and undiscerning; or is it just mean? Admit it, you are no gourmet - but you do have your favorite flavors. (6)
I am sure there are “well-meaning” hypocrites (7) out there who are clueless (8)that they contradict themselves when they say they like all opinions but when put to the test really prove that they esteem their own opinions over all all others (9). Do you imagine that the church of “Self” can get in the way of truth as much as “The Church” does? What principal do you point to that says one is better than the other; especially when you say you value all opinions? Sure I can see by your consistency how you have such great respect for opinions here.
If you want to bring up your family’s personal suffering caused by the wars associated with the Protestant Revolution and associate it with Catholics then I suggest you blame it first on Luther or on the shameful loins of Henry the VIII (that could not bear to be girdled by divine laws of The Church) (11). How many Catholic monks had their guts ripped from their bowels and seared on hot spits before their eyes by Cromwell and his torturers for failing to acknowledge The King as head of the English Church (The Carthusian Martyrs)? How many died during the Protestant Revolution from both sides - 100s of thousands? (12) How many Protestants fled the tyranny of the head of the Protestant Church (England’s King) to colonize America? Your family was not the only to suffer.
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Non_Serviam
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(20 unsubstantiated claims continued)
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Angels_Unaware
Guest
In all sincerity, I took several minutes to type this post, because I want to make sure I do not mis-speak. I read the words you numbered very carefully. I don’t read unsubstantiated claims. I read persuasive, forceful exposition of James’ position as a conservative Catholic. He does give his opinion, but an opinion is allowable.
An unsubstantiated claim is something else. It’s more like false witness. Read this post below, and notice how what the guy is saying isn’t presented as his opinion, it’s stated as an accusation against the Church that is factually unsupported. Like, “I bet Mary is in more of your prayers.” You know, obviously he’s never gone to Mass or been inside a Catholic church. He doesn’t even realize that Mary is not praised during Mass, unless of course it’s a Holy Day, and she is always off to the side, giving Jesus glory. And of course, his butchering of the concept of Mediatrix… that’s very different than a strongly negative opinion. That’s dishonesty.
An unsubstantiated claim is something else. It’s more like false witness. Read this post below, and notice how what the guy is saying isn’t presented as his opinion, it’s stated as an accusation against the Church that is factually unsupported. Like, “I bet Mary is in more of your prayers.” You know, obviously he’s never gone to Mass or been inside a Catholic church. He doesn’t even realize that Mary is not praised during Mass, unless of course it’s a Holy Day, and she is always off to the side, giving Jesus glory. And of course, his butchering of the concept of Mediatrix… that’s very different than a strongly negative opinion. That’s dishonesty.
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Non_Serviam
Guest
First off, if you are expecting me to defend what they’ve written it isn’t going to happen. Most of their argumentation is slipshod and I’ve alluded to such in this and other threads.
Perhaps our different response to the words has to do with our different points of view on the topics. I obviously don’t agree with some key parts of the Catholic point of view, but what I saw primarily in James’ response there was attribution of motive and/or intent. Such attribution is normally an unsubstantiated claim which is why it typically falls under ad hominem in discussion.
While it is fine to state things as one’s opinion, in most cases James didn’t do so-rather he stated them as facts, which tends to cloud the validity of the useful facts he frequently presents.
That said, I’m going to let things rest here, lest I have an air marshall attempt to apprehend me for hijacking the thread more than we have.
Let me simply say that I hope a more respectful tone will characterize the future discussions.
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Roy5
Guest
JAMES - IN SELF-DEFENSE
Code:
Gee, James. You are rough on us wicked sinners. I hope God has more mercy than you do, otherwise we're both in big trouble.
I have other things pressing for my limited time, among them worship at church and the Superbowl soon, but I didn't want you to think that your fierce accusations convinced and cowed me. If anything they seem to confirm my fear that often the most religious people are the least tolerant.
It isn't so much that I value my "own opinion over all others" or that I have experienced a "lapse from gravity". No, it's just that I treasure and use my right to think for myself. I hope you respect that, else you really belong in some other country where everyone had better agree or else. I even respect your right to feel that one Church is right and all the rest of humankind is wrong to a lesser or greater degree. Millions of others feel that way about their religion.
Actually, I don't feel that all expressions of religion are equal. I don't happen to appreciate the views of Al-Qaeda type Muslims or extreme Zionists or those wild-eyed Protestants who think that all others are going to hell. And I'm not in agreement with Catholics who feel superior because they believe Jesus is somehow their Church's personal possession. Brilliant scholars of all kinds - and fine men and women, too - have been advocates of many different faiths throughout the centuries and I regard them highly.
It's interesting how often those who express dissent from certain Catholic positions or practices are immediately charged with putting their egos above God and the Bible. Is that projection of some sort? Isn't there a sort of arrogance among those who trumpet their faith as the only true one? I don't claim to know "all mystery and all knowledge" - I Cor. 13 - but I do seek to express love for all my brothers and sisters, whatever their religious affiliation. Didn't Jesus have that in mind when he spoke of sheep not of this fold, when he commanded us to love one another (yes, even our enemies), when he made a despised Samaritan a hero in his most popular parable, etc,?
Maybe if more people preached less narrow doctrine and more love the world would be a much better place. John Wesley suggested that "if you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together." What do you think of that radical idea?
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LeroyCRHP
Guest
Great to see so many posts about the blessed mother of Jesus Christ.
Read LUK 1:26 through 1:56.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
All this talk about Mary and I feel a need to go pray the Rosary…a prayer with the Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary’s, Glory Be to our Father and then meditation on the events of Jesus’s life. Actually I need to learn it all the way first.
Read LUK 1:26 through 1:56.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
All this talk about Mary and I feel a need to go pray the Rosary…a prayer with the Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary’s, Glory Be to our Father and then meditation on the events of Jesus’s life. Actually I need to learn it all the way first.
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RobHom
Guest
AMEN MY BROTHER!!Great to see so many posts about the blessed mother of Jesus Christ.
Read LUK 1:26 through 1:56.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
All this talk about Mary and I feel a need to go pray the Rosary…a prayer with the Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary’s, Glory Be to our Father and then meditation on the events of Jesus’s life. Actually I need to learn it all the way first.
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Napsack
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You are just reveling in this and you know it.
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Napsack
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It’s nice to see some peaceable sensical posts here.
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Napsack
Guest
This is very typical I am seeing. When someone wishes to prove you wrong with the Bible itself, you call them sola-scriptura and then call them biggots. This is very similar to something Satan would do to uphold himself.
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RobHom
Guest
Hardly…but you are entitle to your opinion…one reaps what they sow…right.
The forum has rules, abide or go bye-bye…right?
Me, I don’t like seeing someone banned…because it means that they are denied the ability to learn the “TRUTH” about the “TRUTH”.
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