To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[CentralFLJames]

I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities. Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine. However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism. The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.

Would you please cease and desist in your rabid calumny of The Catholic Church. We have told you ad-nasaum that Catholics do not claim that Mary is “divine”. Present your evidence in any official Church document or please just shut up with your false witness and strawman argumentation tactics.

Catholic titles of Mary are fully legitimate with the woman “blessed above all women”. It is you personally who assign and associate divinity to those titles. Catholics do not.

Please point out an ancient tradition that points to a different picture that is incompatible with what Catholics currently hold. I think you just make all this stuff up to tell the truth. Cite your sources or withdraw your false charges.

James

 

[pete_29]

I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities. Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine. However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism. The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.

Well, you finally got something right. Mary is not devine. We don’t think so either, but she is the mother of God, that is unless you deny Jesus divinity. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Napsack]

Well, you finally got something right. Mary is not devine. We don’t think so either, but she is the mother of God, that is unless you deny Jesus divinity. Is that what you’re saying?

Is that what Scripture says?

 

[Good_Fella]

I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities. Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine. However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism. The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.

I had no idea that the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is a 16th century religious phenomenon that has been diversely transmuting ever since.

A fool who idly chatters shall fall.
Proverbs 10, 8

 

[Napsack]

Would you please cease and desist in your rabid calumny of The Catholic Church. We have told you ad-nasaum that Catholics do not claim that Mary is “divine”. Present your evidence in any official Church document or please just shut up with your false witness and strawman argumentation tactics.

Your being rude and uncharitable.

 

[Napsack]

I had no idea that the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is a 16th century religious phenomenon that has been diversely transmuting ever since.

A fool who idly chatters shall fall.
Proverbs 10, 8

Hmmm, that’s funny, I didn’t either.

 

[Good_Fella]

Is that what Scripture says?

Luke 1, 31-35

Luke 1, 43

Theotokos

A wise man fears, and departs from evil; but the fool rages and is confident.
Proverbs 14, 16

 

[CentralFLJames]

Mary devotion is biblical. It begins with the Magi bowing to worship Mary with Child in the manger scene. The beginnings of public acknowledgement and devotion to the Mother of Jesus is present from apostolic times in the living Tradition of the early Church.

The first historic indications of the existing veneration of Mary carried on from the Apostolic Church is manifested in the Roman catacombs. As early as the end of the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary is depicted in frescos in the Roman catacombs both with and without her divine Son. Mary is depicted as a model of virginity with her Son; at the Annunciation; at the adoration of the Magi; and as the orans, the “praying one,” the woman of prayer

A very significant fresco found in the catacombs of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between St. Peter and St. Paul with her arms outstretched to both. This fresco reflects, in the language of Christian frescoes, the earliest symbol of Mary as “Mother of the Church.”

It is also clear from the number of representations of the Blessed Virgin and their locations in the catacombs that the Mother of Jesus was also recognized for her maternal intercession of protection and defense. Her image was present on tombs, as well as on the large central vaults of the catacombs. Clearly, the early Christians dwelling in the catacombs prayed to Mary as intercessor to her Son for special protection and for motherly assistance. As early as the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary’s role as Spiritual Mother was recognized and her protective intercession was invoked. (2)

St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d.202), great defender of Christian orthodoxy and arguably the first true Mariologist, establishes Mary as the New Eve who participates with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation, becoming through her obedience the “cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race”:

Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race… And so it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by Mary’s obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief. (4)

More here: Mother of All Peoples

The evidence is all here for early Church veneration of Mary for anyone who cares to know about it. It is only after the Protestant Revolution that Mary becomes someone to be feared rather than venerated. I say to those who fear the Mother of Jesus (and Jesus being God makes her “Mother of God”) why must you slither in calumny in denigrating Catholic veneration of Mary? Do you feel threatened by her? If so, your fear puts you in common league with the serpent’s fear and it would appear to be the very same enmity God placed between her offspring and the devil’s. Satan has been dreading the coming crush of her offspring’s heel on his head for millennium. Those that hold stubborn to bad thoughts for Marian veneration are just bone headed – if not also making themselves a conspicuous target for the coming crush of all evil and heresies.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall crush you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

James

 

[Napsack]

Luke 1, 31-35

Luke 1, 43

Theotokos

A wise man fears, and departs from evil; but the fool rages and is confident.
Proverbs 14, 16

I guess you’ll have to show me how those deny the divinity of Christ.

 

[Napsack]

Mary devotion is biblical. It begins with the Magi bowing to worship Mary with Child in the manger scene. The beginnings of public acknowledgement and devotion to the Mother of Jesus is present from apostolic times in the living Tradition of the early Church.

Oh my gosh, you can’t be serious.

There is no justification whatsoever to do anything more than to homor Mary, period. You are twisting and cutting and pasting. You truly don’t get grace do you? This is so so sad.

 

[Napsack]

Don’t you see how you are hurting our Lord with this nonsense? Enough said for now.

 

[pete_29]

Is that what Scripture says?

…she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

and she gave birth to her firstborn son …The angel said to them," Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."

Mary gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is Messiah and Lord, i.e. God. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

So yes, that’s what Scripture says.

 

[ron77nyc]

Mary devotion is biblical. It begins with the Magi bowing to worship Mary with Child in the manger scene. The beginnings of public acknowledgement and devotion to the Mother of Jesus is present from apostolic times in the living Tradition of the early Church.

More here: Mother of All Peoples

The evidence is all here for early Church veneration of Mary for anyone who cares to know about it…

This is also from "Mother of All Peoples

Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: **“Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)**Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

 

[NDfan]

…she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

and she gave birth to her firstborn son …The angel said to them," Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."

Mary gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is Messiah and Lord, i.e. God. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

So yes, that’s what Scripture says.

Pete that’s not what scripture says. The church doesn’t even say scripture refers to Mary as the mother of GOD. You need to study history a little more carefully. Do you even know why Mary was called the Mother of GOD? It wasn’t to give her any special status. It was to affirm the deity of Christ. Early Christian groups questioned whether Jesus was really a deity given that he was born of an earthly person. The church confirmed that Christ did not receive HIS deity status from Mary, but that HE was a deity because Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit making HIM GOD incarnate. So Mary was then called the mother of GOD to re-affirm the deity of Christ. That resulted in the use of the term Theotokos which refers to the the person who gave birth to God. Some Christians especially the nestorians had an issue with this and preferred to use the term Christotokos which refers to the person that gave birth to the messiah or the Christ.

The church did not like this because Christotokos refers to Mary as giving birth to Jesus in human form not affirming HIS deity status whereas Theotokos states Mary gave birth to the divine Jesus. The elements of Jesus as being divine but born of a virgin certainly are scriptural. But scripture never uses the term Mother of GOD.

 

[placido]

I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities.

And that remains just that: YOUR fallible opinion.

Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine.

100 % Catholic - that is quiet an improvement.

However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism.

You would rather have an unholy mother of the Lord, yes?

The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.

Your fallible interpretation - again.

 

[pete_29]

Pete that’s not what scripture says. The church doesn’t even say scripture refers to Mary as the mother of GOD. You need to study history a little more carefully. Do you even know why Mary was called the Mother of GOD? It wasn’t to give her any special status. It was to affirm the deity of Christ. Early Christian groups questioned whether Jesus was really a deity given that he was born of an earthly person. The church confirmed that Christ did not receive HIS deity status from Mary, but that HE was a deity because Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit making HIM GOD incarnate. So Mary was then called the mother of GOD to re-affirm the deity of Christ. That resulted in the use of the term Theotokos which refers to the the person who gave birth to God. Some Christians especially the nestorians had an issue with this and preferred to use the term Christotokos which refers to the person that gave birth to the messiah or the Christ.

The church did not like this because Christotokos refers to Mary as giving birth to Jesus in human form not affirming HIS deity status whereas Theotokos states Mary gave birth to the divine Jesus. The elements of Jesus as being divine but born of a virgin certainly are scriptural. But scripture never uses the term Mother of GOD.

I’m sorry, but your not making any sense. No one is saying that Jesus got his divinity from Mary, but if Mary is not the mother of God then either Mary was not Jesus mother, or Jesus has no divinity. Which is it? For example, if you were to become President of the United States, your mother would be known as mother of the President of the United States even though you did not derive the power of the Presidency from your mother.

 

[placido]

I guess you’ll have to show me how those deny the divinity of Christ.

Hey, are you awake yet? Catholics are not trying to deny the divinity of Christ, quiet the contrary.

 

[placido]

There is no justification whatsoever to do anything more than to homor Mary, period. You are twisting and cutting and pasting. You truly don’t get grace do you? This is so so sad.

The same “pity” the snake had for Eva in the Garden!

 

[placido]

This is also from "Mother of All Peoples

Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: **“Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)**Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

Experience has shown, time and again, that in most of the cases Protestants deliberately misquote Catholic documents. Please do us a favour and provide references for the above so that we can go to the sources ourselves. And I assure you, the truth shall eventually destroy the misrepresentations you made here.

 

[NDfan]

I’m sorry, but your not making any sense. No one is saying that Jesus got his divinity from Mary, but if Mary is not the mother of God then either Mary was not Jesus mother, or Jesus has no divinity. Which is it? For example, if you were to become President of the United States, your mother would be known as mother of the President of the United States even though you did not derive the power of the Presidency from your mother.

Pete I’m not disagreeing with you that Mary is called Theotokos meaning GOD bearer. I just said scripture does not use the term Mother of GOD. Mother of GOD is a term used by the church not scripture. I stated it was a title that was used to affirm and defend the deity of Christ. Not to defend anything related to Mary. That’s all.