To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

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placido said:
Experience has shown, time and again, that in most of the cases Protestants deliberately misquote Catholic documents. Please do us a favour and provide references for the above so that we can go to the sources ourselves. And I assure you, the truth shall eventually destroy the misrepresentations you made here.
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Placido I would be interested in seeing you correct these supposed mis-quotes. Did these folks really not say these things?
 
NDfan said:
Pete I’m not disagreeing with you that Mary is called Theotokos meaning GOD bearer. I just said scripture does not use the term Mother of GOD. Mother of GOD is a term used by the church not scripture. I stated it was a title that was used to affirm and defend the deity of Christ. Not to defend anything related to Mary. That’s all.
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I think the problem we are having in our discussion is that you tend to overthink the message and I tend to underthink the message. To me, the words God bearer and mother of God have the same meaning and are easier for my simple mind to comprehend.🙂
 
placido said:
Experience has shown, time and again, that in most of the cases Protestants deliberately misquote Catholic documents. Please do us a favour and provide references for the above so that we can go to the sources ourselves. And I assure you, the truth shall eventually destroy the misrepresentations you made here.
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I didn’t give the source because it was the same one used by CentralFLJames but here it is:
motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=85

And I’m not a Protestant. I’m just a Catholic who listens to both sides.
 
Hi ron:)

I’m sorry I don’t have the time today to go through your quotes in great detail, but I wanted to say a few quick things that came to mind when reading your post.

First, I feel sad for St. Alphonsus de Liguori that his great devotion to our blessed mother is so often picked apart and riddiculed by Christians who don’t understand or agree with his spirituality. Or that so many of his writings are used to attack Catholics and “prove” that we worship Mary. I don’t know how many times now on these boards and others that I’ve seen him quoted, as the ultimate “proof” that the Church indeed condones “mary worship.”

Secondly, I think more people who are quick to judge his spirituality should read his writings about his devotion to Christ. When you understand this great saint’s devotion to our Lord, his marian devotion falls into perspective much more clearly.

Lastly, I read through the quotation you posted. I didn’t find anything “wrong” with what he said at all. Granted, this saint often used “flowery” language that seems out of place for us today…but the themes of what he wrote are beautiful and contemplative. He never places Mary “above” or as deity with God at all! He understands, as all Catholics should, that everything Mary is…all honor we give her, all love and devotion flows in, through and with Christ. We honor the mother to honor the Son. If only God would give me the grace to express so beautifully my love for Him and for His mother! Mary is such a blessing from God, and if more would hold her as highly in their hearts as this wondeful saint I think we would understand and love Jesus so much more deeply!

Perhaps others will have time to go through his quote more in depth if they find it worthwhile…but if you are willing to study it in light of what we believe about Mary…in relation to the Family of God, intercession, co-mediating of all believers, and ultimately our salvation through Jesus, you may find yourself also appreciating the great devotion of this saint and many others:)

God bless!

edit

I wanted to add something I heard on the radio the other night… (EWTN actually) I don’t remember who was speaking but he had a great analogy! Many are uncomfortable not only with praying for Mary’s intercession, but asking her to “do” anything for us. Well here was his analogy:

When you get sick, do you pray to God for healing?
Code: 
   "yes."
Why don’t you go to a doctor?
Code: 
 "well...I do that too of course!"
Does the doctor help heal you? Does he give you treatment?
Code: 
"yes..."

Well, does that make the doctor God????
And his second analogy was along the same lines:

If you prayed because you were having a hard time financially, and I came to you and gave you 100 dollars… Would that make me God?

(I have terribly misquoted these I’m sure, but I thought they were such great analogies!)

Basically… We can pray to Mary for her intercession, and God can work through her to reach and help us if He chooses. Just as He can use any one of us to reach and help others:)
 
AshleyBelle said:
Hi ron:)

I’m sorry I don’t have the time today to go through your quotes in great detail, but I wanted to say a few quick things that came to mind when reading your post.

Basically… We can pray to Mary for her intercession, and God can work through her to reach and help us if He chooses. Just as He can use any one of us to reach and help others:)
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I would never hesitate to pray to Mary if I needed to. I have also sensed the reality of intercession from the saints at the Easter Vigil. I’m also not going to ignore the fact that some incorrect teaching had occurred in medieval Catholicism that trickled down for centuries to follow and was adopted as sacred tradition. Jesus was never reluctant to forgive us. He says “him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out.”
 
Napsack said:
I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities. Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine. However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism. The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.
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Napsack,

I was not criticizing you; if you thought I was. I just wanted to make sure you were on track and did not get into the mud; which it appears you are not.

Blessings brother!
 
CentralFLJames said:
Mary devotion is biblical. It begins with the Magi bowing to worship Mary with Child in the manger scene. The beginnings of public acknowledgement and devotion to the Mother of Jesus is present from apostolic times in the living Tradition of the early Church.

**First of all it was the shepherds that went to the manger and the Magi were not at the manger…geesh! I rest my case!

Matthew 2:9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was**. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11 After **coming into the house they saw the Child **with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.

A house; not a manger. Worshiped Him; not her.

The first historic indications of the existing veneration of Mary carried on from the Apostolic Church is manifested in the Roman catacombs. As early as the end of the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary is depicted in frescos in the Roman catacombs both with and without her divine Son. Mary is depicted as a model of virginity with her Son; at the Annunciation; at the adoration of the Magi; and as the orans, the “praying one,” the woman of prayer

A very significant fresco found in the catacombs of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between St. Peter and St. Paul with her arms outstretched to both. This fresco reflects, in the language of Christian frescoes, the earliest symbol of Mary as “Mother of the Church.”

It is also clear from the number of representations of the Blessed Virgin and their locations in the catacombs that the Mother of Jesus was also recognized for her maternal intercession of protection and defense. Her image was present on tombs, as well as on the large central vaults of the catacombs. Clearly, the early Christians dwelling in the catacombs prayed to Mary as intercessor to her Son for special protection and for motherly assistance. As early as the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary’s role as Spiritual Mother was recognized and her protective intercession was invoked. (2)

St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d.202), great defender of Christian orthodoxy and arguably the first true Mariologist, establishes Mary as the New Eve who participates with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation, becoming through her obedience the “cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race”:

Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race… And so it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by Mary’s obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief. (4)

More here: Mother of All Peoples

The evidence is all here for early Church veneration/worship of Mary for anyone who cares to know about it. It is only after the Protestant Revolution that Mary leaves the biblical account becomes someone to be feared rather than venerated. I say to those who fear the Mother of Jesus (and Jesus being God makes her “Mother of God”) why must you slither in calumny in denigrating Catholic veneration / worship of Mary? Do you feel threatened by her? If so, your fear puts you in common league with the serpent’s fear and it would appear to be the very same enmity God placed between her offspring and the devil’s. Satan has been dreading the coming crush of her offspring’s heel on his head for millennium. Those that hold stubborn to bad thoughts for Marian veneration are just bone headed – if not also making themselves a conspicuous target for the coming crush of all evil and heresies.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall crush you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

James
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NonCatholic said:
Napsack,

I was not criticizing you; if you thought I was. I just wanted to make sure you were on track and did not get into the mud; which it appears you are not.

Blessings brother!
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Thank you and keep fighting for the Gospel brother! Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Peace.
 
placido said:
Hey, are you awake yet? Catholics are not trying to deny the divinity of Christ, quiet the contrary.
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That was the question I asked the poster because he seemed to think that Scripture doesn’t prove the diety of Christ. You missed the original quote that I was responding to.
 
pete_29 said:
I’m sorry, but your not making any sense. No one is saying that Jesus got his divinity from Mary, but if Mary is not the mother of God then either Mary was not Jesus mother, or Jesus has no divinity. Which is it? For example, if you were to become President of the United States, your mother would be known as mother of the President of the United States even though you did not derive the power of the Presidency from your mother.
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Oh man, talk about being dense.:banghead: :sleep:
 
NDfan said:
Pete that’s not what scripture says. The church doesn’t even say scripture refers to Mary as the mother of GOD. You need to study history a little more carefully. Do you even know why Mary was called the Mother of GOD? It wasn’t to give her any special status. It was to affirm the deity of Christ. Early Christian groups questioned whether Jesus was really a deity given that he was born of an earthly person. The church confirmed that Christ did not receive HIS deity status from Mary, but that HE was a deity because Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit making HIM GOD incarnate. So Mary was then called the mother of GOD to re-affirm the deity of Christ. That resulted in the use of the term Theotokos which refers to the the person who gave birth to God. Some Christians especially the nestorians had an issue with this and preferred to use the term Christotokos which refers to the person that gave birth to the messiah or the Christ.

The church did not like this because Christotokos refers to Mary as giving birth to Jesus in human form not affirming HIS deity status whereas Theotokos states Mary gave birth to the divine Jesus. The elements of Jesus as being divine but born of a virgin certainly are scriptural. But scripture never uses the term Mother of GOD.
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Sorry - but you don’t know what you are talking about. The Church has always called Mary “Mother of God”.

The Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: “Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh.” 90

See CCC’s
466: …that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb…

469: " … O only-begotten Son and Word of God, immortal being, you who deigned for our salvation to become incarnate of the holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, you who without change became man and were crucified…"

493: "…The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”. 138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. "

495: “…Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly “Mother of God” (Theotokos).”

721: “Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time…”

963: “…The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer… She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ … since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head.” 502 “Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church.” 503 …

966: “…In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life…”

971: “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” 515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and …”

975: We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

and more than 10 more…

Catholics don’t need Protestants telling us what “The Church” teaches since you are clueless…

James
 
ron77nyc said:
This is also from "Mother of All Peoples

Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: **“Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)**Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.
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Why don’t you go back and read this thread instead of spamming us with the same old rehash here. I commented on this a long time ago. Do your homework.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4764365&postcount=808

James
 
Napsack said:
That was the question I asked the poster because he seemed to think that Scripture doesn’t prove the diety of Christ. You missed the original quote that I was responding to.
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Originally Posted by pete 29 View Post
Well, you finally got something right. Mary is not devine. We don’t think so either, but she is the mother of God, that is unless you deny Jesus divinity. Is that what you’re saying?
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Napsack said:
Is that what Scripture says?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Fella View Post
Luke 1, 31-35
Luke 1, 43
Theotokos
A wise man fears, and departs from evil; but the fool rages and is confident.
Proverbs 14, 16
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Napsack said:
I guess you’ll have to show me how those deny the divinity of Christ.
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placido said:
Hey, are you awake yet? Catholics are not trying to deny the divinity of Christ, quiet the contrary.
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That was the question I asked the poster because he seemed to think that Scripture doesn’t prove the diety of Christ. You missed the original quote that I was responding to.
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I hope after reviewing the post you realize that he was not denying the divinity of Jesus but asking if your were.
 
CentralFLJames said:
No Ron - what you are is a Catholic who talks out of both sides of his mouth and is very confused.
James
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I’m not confused. I’m just not willing to explain away error when I see it or accept an explanation that is ridiculous. Could it be the emperor really has no clothes?
 
**This will make one ill!

He was pleased to humble Himself and to be subject to Mary, as we are told by St. Luke: “And He was subject to them.” (2) And still more, says Saint Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of Saint Lawrence, “of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be said that she was so far favored as to be not only herself submissive to the will of God, but even that God was subject to her will.” (3) And whereas of all other virgins, remarks the same author, we must say that “they follow the Lamb wherever he goes” (4) of the Blessed Virgin Mary we can say that the Lamb followed her, having become subject to her. (5)…

I can’t even read the thing; it is so blasphemous! Oh God help them!**
 
NonCatholic said:
First of all it was the shepherds that went to the manger and the Magi were not at the manger…geesh! I rest my case!

Matthew 2:9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.

A house; not a manger. Worshiped Him; not her.
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First of all you better tell all your Protestant friends to return their manger and nativity Christmas sets for being unbiblical or tell them to remove their three magi from it and to stop depicting this scene in their Christmas pageants. 😃

Secondly whether the words mean house or shelter or place its irrelevant to the point I was making. Nice try to discount the entire point on a trivial matter like this. The point is that the Mother and Child are NOT seperated AND the wise men worshiped The Christ Child in the presence of Mary - most likely in her arms.
Matthew 2:9:
Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the East, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was. 10 And seeing the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And entering into the house, they found the **child with **Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him: and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
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Thirdly I recommend you tone down your bigotry and false charges made on Catholics here and stop trying to seperate Mary from Christ as if she must put him down every time somone walks in and bows down to worship him just to prevent some zealous hypocrite from mistaking it as worship of her rather than the honoring of her in the presence of her Son while worshiping Him.

James
 
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