To Spauline concerning some ECF quotes

  • Thread starter Thread starter copland
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

copland

Guest
"Also, just as a side note, what is the totality that ECFs have to say about the five months of the first Woe, and the “myriads of myriads” of the second woe, and that that the false prophet has “two horns like a lamb”? and I’m looking specifically for how they treat of these numbers specifically, if possible?"

Rev. 9:5 Concerning 5 months
5 months, using the number in a kind of mystical way, sinners will be most severely punished as if stung by a scorpion; but after this we shall be punished more gently, though we shall certainly not be entirely unpunished, to such an extent that we may seek death and not find it. Oecumenius Commentary On Revelation] 6th Century

For by the five months he signifies the time of the age, because of the division into five of the sense which we use in this life. But in that another translation (Primasius’ Commentary) has “six months,” it agrees with this interpretation, because of the six periods of the age. The Venerable Bede Commentary on Revelation] 672-735AD

We think that the fives months of their torment signifies either the shortness of time, as the Lord says, “For had those days not been shortened, no flesh would have been saved,(Mt. 24:22)” or a certain 5day period representing the 5 senses through which sin enters into people, or a determined period that is known to God alone. St. Andrew of Caesarea Commentary on Revelation] 6th Century
 
Rev. 9:16 Myraids and myraids
number. This number designates the crafty duplicity of the perverse army; and this may more easily be perceived in another translation, which says, “two myriads of myriads.” This is the number which the parable of the Gospel (St. Luke xiv. 31) opposes to the king who has ten thousand, as if the duplicity of the wicked resists the simple faith of Christ, for “thousands of thousands minister unto Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stand before Him.(Dan. vii. 10)” The Venerable Bede Commentary on Revelation] 672-735AD
“Some say that these four angels are Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael, who, bound by the joy of the contemplation of God, will be loosed on the day of judgment together with an innumerable multitude of angels to judge the impious, of whom a third will be annihilated. But I think that these four angels are the most cunning demons who were bound at the coming of Christ and who, by the command of God which comes from the heavenly altar (an image of which was the ancient tabernacle), are loosed by the Divine angel to agitate the peoples not only against Christians, but also against each other, so that through this some might be manifested as tested, faithful and worthy of the best rewards, the highest mansions and dwellings like ripe wheat; while others, like tares, the impious, inconstant sinners and unrepentant and here justly punished, might receive a yet harder condemnation at the judgment. And that they were bound at the Euphrates is nothing strange, for, by God’s permission, some were condemned until the time in the bottomless pit, others in wine, and some in other places, so that after the final end of the battle against men they might be subjected to eternal torments. Perhaps the mention of the Euphrates is an indication that Antichrist will come from those lands” St. Andrew of Caesarea] 6th Century
But who does he say the 4 angels are? Perhaps they are those designated in the Scripture: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael. After this they went out with an ineffably large army of cavalry. By this he means the invincible force of the holy angels, comparing it with a huge force of cavalry. Oecumenius Commentary On Revelation] 6th Century
 
continue Rev. 9:16

The number of the cavalry was 80 thousand. He again uses different ways to suggest the whole body of evil persons. Here it says 80 thousand. Just as through the perfection of the number 6, he signifies for us the form of 60 good people, so that we read “there were 60 queens,(Song 6:7)” so sometimes the number 80 is used in a bad sense. 80 arises from that which is fourfold, on account of the 4 well-known qualities of the body- cold and heat, moisture and dryness- or on account of the 4 passions that often vex humans in life- dread, desire, pain and joy. When these 4 are doubled because of the 2 sexes, they become 8. Thus number similarity increasing by way of 10’s make 80, and in some way this shows that portion of evil persons who as cavalry fight against the body of Christ, which is the Church. Therefore, that verse continued, “there are 80 concubines,(Song 6:7)” as though they were not united by a legitimate union but by a fraudulent one. And this is characteristic of all heresies that lay hold of the sacraments of faith for a time while they are clothed in the name of Christ. Yet just like concubines who do not remain permanently in the home, they desire to profit from the name of Christ by gaining influence or advantage of authority of human praise. Tyconius comments upon another translation, “And the number of soldier was twice 10 thousand time 10 thousand.” It seems to us that also in this translation the portion of the people of perdition are aptly indicated. For twice 10 thousand is 20 thousand, and this is the number which the Lord in the Gospel placed the king who had 10 thousand, (Lk. 14:31) so that, as it were, the duplicity of those who are evil opposes the simplicity of the Christians. Primasius Commentary on Revelation] 550AD
 
Rev. 13:11- 2 horns like a lamb
And in speaking of the ‘horns being like a lamb,’ he means that he will make himself like the Son of God and set himself foward as king. St. Hippolytus On the Antichrist 49] 222AD

It says that he has ‘horns like a lamb’ because he has the form of a righteous man. St. Victorinus Commentary on Revelation] 304AD

It now pretend to be the Lamb so that it might assail the Lamb, that is, the body of Christ. Tyconius Commentary on Revelation] 330-390AD

That he has 2 horns like a lamb indicates that in the skin of a lamb he cloaks the murdersousness of the wolf hiding within and that at the beiginning he will have the form of piety. St. Andrew of Caesarea Commentary on Revelation] 6th Century

*horns *He shows the horns of a lamb, that he may secretly introduce the poison of the dragon. For by the false assumption of sanctity, which the Lord truly had in Himself, he pretends that a matchless life and wisdom are his. Of this beast the Lord says, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.” St. Bede Commentary on Revelation] 672-735AD
 
btw, copland,

seeing as i’m a theologian “wannabe” (😛 ), I have speculation that builds on the ECFs to see the trumpet stages from the “Seal of God” to the “Mark of the Beast” as being symbols of a gradual spiritual digression from full Catholicism to full Apostasy.

I can send you the link if you like.

blessings!
scott
🙂
 
spauline,

Sounds good to me! I really enjoy my dialogues with you. You make me wiser every time I talk to you. By the way, how do you see Islam in relation to the Antichrist? I have some theories that I have been entertaining in my head lately, and I am not quite to a point to where I can put all the peices together yet. But I am very alarmed by the recent actions and intentions by how the Muslems are uniting for an all out holy war.
 
copland said:
spauline,

Sounds good to me! I really enjoy my dialogues with you. You make me wiser every time I talk to you. By the way, how do you see Islam in relation to the Antichrist? I have some theories that I have been entertaining in my head lately, and I am not quite to a point to where I can put all the peices together yet. But I am very alarmed by the recent actions and intentions by how the Muslems are uniting for an all out holy war.
Click to expand...
thanks for the compliments, copland! As far as Islam is concerned, I would not see any “prophecies” about anything temporal. Again I would refer you to the essay I wrote on “Why futurists and preterists miss the point”, knowing what any individual nations will do to one another is not really what the apoc is about. These questions are relatively useless. It is more dealing with spiritual epochs in the Church’s history.

Secondly, most likely, we are NOT living in the time of THE Antichrist. According to the best expert analysis of EWTN, we are in the MINOR apostasy, not the GREAT apostasy. This apostasy is going to be healed, if necessary, by a MINOR chastisement, and Christians will be reunited and a glorious Catholic age of peace inaugurated. Only after the age of peace does the GREAT apostasy come, which is also when the Antichrist comes.

In that vein, I wouldn’t even see Islam existing to any significant extent at that time, because the Minor Chastisement will have already manifested the partial darkness of Islam (as well as any other errors outside Catholicism, including anything from Orthodoxy, Protestanttism, the hedonisitc relativists), so that at the time of Antichrist, there will simply three types of people: full apostates, devout Catholics, and Jews who are in the process to converting to Catholicism. But I would have to check on this, but that is my hunch.

in other words, I see Islam in prophecy only to the extent that it arises as a great spiritual opposition to the Church’s development of doctrine, that it, like all other theological errors, will be destroyed by the Minor Chastisement, in the sense that the Minor Chastisement will manifest all the non-Catholic errors for what they truly are, so that the world, as a near whole reverts to Catholicism.

Toward that end, you might read my discourse on how I see the “Two Witnesses” dealing with this: The Two Witnesses: Scripture and Tradition.

Blessings to you!
scott
 
dear copland,

to clarify further how I see Islam in the apocalypse, as you may notice if you read the above discourse i give on the seal, mark, and trumpets, I place Islam as the second trumpet, for several reasons.

First, as a brief synopsis, the jist of my analysis is to simply structure the spiritual attacks on the Church’s development of doctrine as simply going from the top to the bottom of the “Spiritual Pyramid” of the sources of divine truth. I think that the “pyramid” is straightforward in our faith:

I. God as Trinity and Incarnation
II. The Pope
III. The rest of the Bishops and Oral Tradition
IV. The Scriptures (Written Tradition)
V. Reason

Now, of course, these are only five, whereas there are seven trumpets. In this regard, I subdivide sources I and III above into each as two trumpets instead of just one to make out the difference.

In this regard, i think this makes sense as follows: since the Church’s doctrinal development does not really begin formally until after Constantine, I simply see the great spiritual affronts to the Church as basically walking down this pyramid.

So, the first great age of heresies in the Church, from what I can tell in the most part, truly attack either the Trinity or the Incarnation in one sense or another. However, I separate the beginning waves of these with Islam, because prior to Islam, the heresies indeed attacked something about the Trinity or Incarnation (usually), but they still retain Christ as the Messiah and final Revelator to humanity, whereas Islam is much more serious: not only does it completely attack the Trinity and the Incarnation, but it goes on to dethrone Christ as Messiah and final Revelator and sets up an extra-Christological Revelator (i.e., the “prophet Muhammed”), and it is for this reason that I have the attack of pyramid block “I” above into two trumpets, the first being the general initial age of Trinitarian and Christological heresies, the second being Islam.

And I also find this appropriate seeing that the second trumpet is a great “flaming mountain” that is cast into the sea. Well, from Daniel 2, we see the Catholic Church is represented as a great mountain, as it is itself a great kindgom and religion, so that Islam is also appropriately a “great” religion, the existence of which is still prominent in humanity after all these centuries.

And just as many “creatures in the sea died”, so then there is a certain spiritual death that Islam can cause, seeing as it is counter to the LOVE that exists in the Trinity, and of the God of LOVE who became man and died for us. In this regard, I don’t care what people say, Islam is simply NOT as loving as Christianity. For if God is merely ONE in person, and he is more our “Master” whom we must “submit to”, rather than a loving Father, and if there is not an Infinite Communion of Love of Persons in God, One of which has become a Man and died for us, in LOVE, then certainly God is not nearly as loving in Islam.

That’s just my take anyway.

As an unrelated side note, the next trumpet would be the Great Schism, which appropriately attacks the Pope, but still retains Apostolic Succession and Oral Tradition in general.

Then, for the attack on pyramid block III, I again use two trumpets, in the sense that, clearly the devil has used the preceding SCANDAL of the Catholic clergy as an essential mechanism to raise up the Protestant Rebelllion, and I see heavy Scriptural basis for this, in many places in the Gospels themselves, and from Christ’s very lips: the parable of the Wheat and the Tares (the devil sows weeds in the wheat, that is, scandal of iniquity in Christ’s Kingdom), and again, “If anyone should cause one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him to be drowned …” And finally, and most especially, in the Matthew Apocalpyse itself: note here, Matthew’s Gospel is the only one that contains a reference to, as per Christ’s words, “And then many shall be SCANDALIZED, and shall hate and betray one another, and many FALSE PROPHETS shall arise and deceive many, and because iniquity will abound, the CHARITY of the many will grow cold!”

Note, Luke and Mark have some reference to “hatred and betrayal”, but neither of them have this scandal/false prophets/loss of charity section that** Matthew** does. And I see in this a deep principle, for as Christ says in the introductory section of His apocalypses, “for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines and earthquakes… BUT THE END IS NOT YET.” In other words, Christ here already dethrones the entire system of evangelical fundamentalism: Specific nations, wars, and natural disturbances are NOT the issue. The issue is SPIRITUAL,.

… continued
 
… continued

And I cannot help but believe that Christ has nailed the spiritual ROOT of the apostasy we now have: SCANDAL. For is not the devil’s intention to destroy people’s faith, thereby to get them embrace sin, and hence lose their souls? But since the Catholic Church is the only true FULL voice of God on earth, telling men what they must do to be saved, and which gives them the greatest graces that they need to do this, then, in order for the devil to get people to apostatize, this is the equivalent of getting them to lose trust in the Church. And how might he do that? By getting them to lose trust in the Church’s leadership! And so getting the bishops to become largely hypocrites through SCANDAL is his best bet to get people to reject the Church.

For this very reason, getting back to the subject of pyramid block III, I make this step into TWO trumpets, the fourth and fifth, so that the fourth, as a darkening of the luminaries (which could obviously symbolize the “lights”, the “prophets” of the NT Cov, that is, the Catholic leadership) symbolizes the great MORAL darkening of the bishops and clergy just prior to Protestantism, then making Protestantism the fifth trumpet, or first great Woe, or analogously in the Gospels above, the rise of many “false prophets” who deceive.

It then also becomes appropriate that in the next great woe, one third of man is “killed” by an myriads of myriads, which could mean what Christ says that the “charity of the many will grow cold” (i.e., a spiritual “death”) because “iniquity will abound”, which is quite similar to the worldy heresies and worldliness that ensued with the “Enlightenment”.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe, but thought I’d just expand into the question of Islam and a little beyond.

Blessings!
scott
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top