To the Episcopalians

[gurneyhalleck1]

Come on gurney, don’t be naive. Just call your insurance company and ask them if they would cover it.

**VARC, as I’ve stated before, both of us are intelligent folks, neither of us is naive or foolish, so please don’t assume I’m a boob here. I would never mistake you for a naive yutz, so kindly treat me equally as well. You are making a bold statement about insurance company’s coverage here without any numbers to back it up. VARC, the burden of proof is NOT on me to disprove this. The burden of proof is on you to show me it’s TRUE. Produce some numbers and I’ll consider your argument. **

I would argue that that is a morally irresponsible choice depending on the circumstances of their lives. If a woman has other children, she has a moral obligation to provide for them. If she knew that their is no hope for the embryo, which there isn’t in tubal pregnancies, she has to choose to the morally best outcome which doesn’t needlessly deprive children of their mother. Just my opinion.
** No problem, I would agree here. I wouldn’t let my wife die for this either. I just simply stated that SOME would, some wouldn’t. I’d be in the “wouldn’t” category with you here.**

That is completely beside the point. The fact that it happens at all should be enough for you to consider how appropriate it is to lay such a moral burden on a person. Catholics often times don’t wish to acknowlege complex moral situations. They like everytrhing black and white. The fact that you even suggest that the frequency of abortions to save life is low implies that you are indeed willing to sacrifice the innocent lives of the few women whose abortions are necessary to maintain the “pro-life” party line against the radical abortion advocates.
It is NOT beside the point. In many of your arguments you cite rarities and bizarre circumstances and freak moments, not the norm. And I will tell you you’re WRONG when you say that the Church would expect a woman to die for childbirth. I here and now challenge you to back up your statement with Roman Catholic official statements and policy in writing to, again, PROVE what you’re saying is true. Nowhere in the Catholic Church is there a teaching saying that all women must die even in an ectopic situation, for a birth or suffer hell. It’s all your perception and you’re trying to make the Church look draconian and heartless. Again, the burden of proof, my friend, is not met by you.

And BTW, tubal ectopic pregnancies are not uncommon. Anywhere from 1 in 40 to 1 in 100 pregnancies are tubal.
Finally, numbers. No citation, but numbers at least. I would also like you to follow this 1 in 40 statistic with how many fatalities ensue for either mom or baby.

I acknowlege that the vast majority of surgical abortions are the intentional killing of human persons for dubious or selfish reasons, and therefore I consider them murder. I wish the government would do something about elective abortions.
**You’re expecting the government to start an agency to go around probing which abortions were well-intended and which ones were malicious? First of all, you called me naive? Anyway, you’re again trying to have your cake and eat it, too, VARC. The FBI is pretty busy already and hardly has the time to trail millions of irresponsible women to see what their abortion motives were. You almost sound like you’d like to put limits on abortion? uh oh! Sounds almost like the radical kookoo nutsoid pro-life wing wants LOL You describe us pro-lifers as crazy-kookoo but you sound not far off with that desire.
**
Perhaps you can acknowlege that some abortions, even if it be few, are the killing of innocent persons for good reasons (saving the woman’s life) and not necessarily murder and the morality of those abortions is legitimately debatable.
**Didn’t I already do that? And the Church has, at no point, said that saving a mother’s life that results in an abortion is intrinsically evil. **
Unfortunately Rome will not allow you to admit that.

**Rome has never placed a gag order on Catholics with these issues, VARC. Contrary to what you might think, the Vatican stormtroopers haven’t visited my California home and told me I can’t say that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy must die… **

 

[Justy90]

Much-appreciated, Justy. I notice you’re ACNA. Great, what diocese? I used to attend the San Joaquin Diocese. However thanks to the liberal and semi-psychotic “Presiding Bishop” Schiori, the diocese is being sued for their property and they are WINNING. It looks as if they’ll lose it all. Lawyers, I have heard from numerous sources, are very very pessimistic about the outcome for the lowly conservative Anglicans and it looks like TEC will get their way. These courageous Anglicans will be out on their ears soon and the loons will claim the real estate to empty and unenthusastic congregants. They are expected to sell the property to secular folks effectively turning the churches into bar and grills or bookstores or office space rather than give it to the conservatives.

I agree wtih you about the feminist movement (gag)…Schiori comes to mind…a marine biologist-turned bishop. It boggles the mind? Nothing like a good, solid theological background like studying jellyfish and moray eels to get one’s mind wrapped around morality, good vs. evil, and philosophy. LOL

We are in the Diocese of The Holy Spirit which is where many parishes are until the time arrives to go into newly formed geographical diocese. When that time comes we may be in a Michigan based diocese or maybe the Midwest Diocese which is going to be based in Chicago. My priest was elected to the Executive Board of the Diocese of The Holy Spirit back around Holy Week of this year.

I can’t express it enough how Schiori has made a joke out of herself. Wasn’t it fitting that their convention was in Anehiem CA? Not just one Disneyland but two!

 

[josie_L]

**Rome has never placed a gag order on Catholics with these issues, VARC. Contrary to what you might think, the Vatican stormtroopers haven’t visited my California home **and told me I can’t say that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy must die…

 

[VARC]

VARC, as I’ve stated before, both of us are intelligent folks, neither of us is naive or foolish, so please don’t assume I’m a boob here. I would never mistake you for a naive yutz, so kindly treat me equally as well. You are making a bold statement about insurance company’s coverage here without any numbers to back it up. VARC, the burden of proof is NOT on me to disprove this. The burden of proof is on you to show me it’s TRUE. Produce some numbers and I’ll consider your argument.

Well I hope your wife doesn’t get an ectpoic preganancy because if you expect your insurance company to pay for 1000s of dollars of un-necessary surgery you’re going to have a rude awakening. I’m here to discuss not argue. If you don’t believe me call your insurance company and ask them yourself. I do know for a fact that my insurance company absolutely will not consider it and I have a pretty comprehensive union negotiated health plan.

It is NOT beside the point. In many of your arguments you cite rarities and bizarre circumstances and freak moments, not the norm.

Funny. I was talking to a hard core liberal some number of years ago about partial birth abortion. He made the exact same argument. “It doesn’t matter that PBA happens because that’s only a very small amount of abortions.” It is really amazing how the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing actually think very much the same way but arrive at different conclusion. I like taking the via media.

And I will tell you you’re WRONG when you say that the Church would expect a woman to die for childbirth. I here and now challenge you to back up your statement with Roman Catholic official statements and policy in writing to, again, PROVE what you’re saying is true. Nowhere in the Catholic Church is there a teaching saying that all women must die even in an ectopic situation, for a birth or suffer hell. It’s all your perception and you’re trying to make the Church look draconian and heartless. Again, the burden of proof, my friend, is not met by you.

Well let me first say that I am very happy to hear that you approve of a family’s right to choose an abortion in that circumstance. Your progressive views on abortion are a credit to your church. I’m glad you don’t tow the line of your church on this subject.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95532

The majority of Catholic moralists reject MTX and salpingostomy on the basis that these two amount to no less than a direct abortion. In both cases, the embryo is directly attacked, so the death of the embryo is not the unintended evil effect, but rather the very means used to bring about the intended good effect. Yet, for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX and salpingostomy do not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57

Finally, numbers. No citation, but numbers at least. I would also like you to follow this 1 in 40 statistic with how many fatalities ensue for either mom or baby.

You know you can look into this issue yourself. I’m not making this up. But to answer the question…Embryos do not survive tubal ectopic pregnency at all. Mortality rates are low for women in modern countries because MTX is used regularly to treat the condition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy

You’re expecting the government to start an agency to go around probing which abortions were well-intended and which ones were malicious? First of all, you called me naive? Anyway, you’re again trying to have your cake and eat it, too, VARC. The FBI is pretty busy already and hardly has the time to trail millions of irresponsible women to see what their abortion motives were. You almost sound like you’d like to put limits on abortion? uh oh! Sounds almost like the radical kookoo nutsoid pro-life wing wants LOL You describe us pro-lifers as crazy-kookoo but you sound not far off with that desire.

Well I did describe myself as both pro-life and pro-choice. This is a complicated problem and it calls for a complex solution. Medical and judicial oversight on abortions seems like a good start to me. This is how they do it in Latin America. Abortion is legal only in some circumstances. What’s your solution?

 

[Holly3278]

Here is some links about the Episcopal Church in the United States:

episcopalchurch.org/visitors.htm

iamepiscopalian.org/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Episcopal_Church_USA

God Bless,
Holly

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I hope your wife doesn’t get an ectpoic preganancy because if you expect your insurance company to pay for 1000s of dollars of un-necessary surgery you’re going to have a rude awakening. I’m here to discuss not argue. If you don’t believe me call your insurance company and ask them yourself. I do know for a fact that my insurance company absolutely will not consider it and I have a pretty comprehensive union negotiated health plan.
I also am a union man. At least we have something in common, VARC And I have no idea if it is covered. I made that clear. I’m merely saying that you stated the fact that they’d never cover it as fact and total certainty. Thank you for hoping my wife doesn’t have an ectopic pregnancy. I hope the same for your wife.
Funny. I was talking to a hard core liberal some number of years ago about partial birth abortion. He made the exact same argument. “It doesn’t matter that PBA happens because that’s only a very small amount of abortions.” It is really amazing how the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing actually think very much the same way but arrive at different conclusion. I like taking the via media.
The via media is like spiritual cohabitation. No strings, no hang-ups, no commitment. A spiritual hometown buffet so to speak. I am NOT like a hard core liberal in my argument in that my statement that PBA is a rare necessity. That isn’t the focus of my argument. My argument is that ectopic pregnancies are dealt with as needed and the Church doesn’t excommunicate a woman who chooses her own life over the baby’s. You put words in the Church’s mouth on this and I called you on it. I never said that rarity excuses or allows anything. I merely mentioned it. I don’t think my reasoning ever sounds liberal. Trust me!

Well let me first say that I am very happy to hear that you approve of a family’s right to choose an abortion in that circumstance. Your progressive views on abortion are a credit to your church. I’m glad you don’t tow the line of your church on this subject.
Well I do tow the line. The Church, again, has never said that a woman must die in labor. I’ve said this so many times, VARC, that my head is spinning like the little girl, Regan’s, head in the Exorcist! I hope I don’t start spitting up pea soup! The Church does NOT expect women to die in labor! My saying that I agree with that doesn’t put me at odds with the Church? I can’t understand why you don’t see that? I’m a passionate pro-life Christian.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95532

The majority of Catholic moralists reject MTX and salpingostomy on the basis that these two amount to no less than a direct abortion. In both cases, the embryo is directly attacked, so the death of the embryo is not the unintended evil effect, but rather the very means used to bring about the intended good effect. Yet, for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX and salpingostomy do not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57
Have you read the actual papal statements on this issue? What does the vatican say? Catholic moralists are one thing, the papacy and college of cardinals another. Thomas Aquinas was a great moralist but he taught that the immaculate conception wasn’t viable. The pope decided otherwise. Good points though, and good citations. Thanks.

You know you can look into this issue yourself. I’m not making this up. But to answer the question…Embryos do not survive tubal ectopic pregnency at all. Mortality rates are low for women in modern countries because MTX is used regularly to treat the condition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy

Well I did describe myself as both pro-life and pro-choice. This is a complicated problem and it calls for a complex solution. Medical and judicial oversight on abortions seems like a good start to me. This is how they do it in Latin America. Abortion is legal only in some circumstances. What’s your solution?
** My solution is pre-1973. Unless it threatens the life of the mother, and this is rare, abortions should be outlawed. Any doctor found doing one or participating in one would lose his license. Hospitals or clinics found to have participated in abortions outside of the boundaries of the health of the mother should be fined and financially smacked-down by the federal government. Each procedure should be looked-over by a panel of doctors and administrators after such a procedure and a board should be able to punish any doctor who did such a procedure unethically or with loose interpretations of the law. Abortion should be a crime.**

 

[VARC]

VARC;5662910:

Well I hope your wife doesn’t get an ectpoic preganancy because if you expect your insurance company to pay for 1000s of dollars of un-necessary surgery you’re going to have a rude awakening. I’m here to discuss not argue. If you don’t believe me call your insurance company and ask them yourself. I do know for a fact that my insurance company absolutely will not consider it and I have a pretty comprehensive union negotiated health plan.
I also am a union man. At least we have something in common, VARC And I have no idea if it is covered. I made that clear. I’m merely saying that you stated the fact that they’d never cover it as fact and total certainty. Thank you for hoping my wife doesn’t have an ectopic pregnancy. I hope the same for your wife.

Funny. I was talking to a hard core liberal some number of years ago about partial birth abortion. He made the exact same argument. “It doesn’t matter that PBA happens because that’s only a very small amount of abortions.” It is really amazing how the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing actually think very much the same way but arrive at different conclusion. I like taking the via media.
The via media is like spiritual cohabitation. No strings, no hang-ups, no commitment. A spiritual hometown buffet so to speak. I am NOT like a hard core liberal in my argument in that my statement that PBA is a rare necessity. That isn’t the focus of my argument. My argument is that ectopic pregnancies are dealt with as needed and the Church doesn’t excommunicate a woman who chooses her own life over the baby’s. You put words in the Church’s mouth on this and I called you on it. I never said that rarity excuses or allows anything. I merely mentioned it. I don’t think my reasoning ever sounds liberal. Trust me!

Well let me first say that I am very happy to hear that you approve of a family’s right to choose an abortion in that circumstance. Your progressive views on abortion are a credit to your church. I’m glad you don’t tow the line of your church on this subject.
Well I do tow the line. The Church, again, has never said that a woman must die in labor. I’ve said this so many times, VARC, that my head is spinning like the little girl, Regan’s, head in the Exorcist! I hope I don’t start spitting up pea soup! The Church does NOT expect women to die in labor! My saying that I agree with that doesn’t put me at odds with the Church? I can’t understand why you don’t see that? I’m a passionate pro-life Christian.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95532

The majority of Catholic moralists reject MTX and salpingostomy on the basis that these two amount to no less than a direct abortion. In both cases, the embryo is directly attacked, so the death of the embryo is not the unintended evil effect, but rather the very means used to bring about the intended good effect. Yet, for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX and salpingostomy do not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57
Have you read the actual papal statements on this issue? What does the vatican say? Catholic moralists are one thing, the papacy and college of cardinals another. Thomas Aquinas was a great moralist but he taught that the immaculate conception wasn’t viable. The pope decided otherwise. Good points though, and good citations. Thanks.

You know you can look into this issue yourself. I’m not making this up. But to answer the question…Embryos do not survive tubal ectopic pregnency at all. Mortality rates are low for women in modern countries because MTX is used regularly to treat the condition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy

Well I did describe myself as both pro-life and pro-choice. This is a complicated problem and it calls for a complex solution. Medical and judicial oversight on abortions seems like a good start to me. This is how they do it in Latin America. Abortion is legal only in some circumstances. What’s your solution?
** My solution is pre-1973. Unless it threatens the life of the mother, and this is rare, abortions should be outlawed. Any doctor found doing one or participating in one would lose his license. Hospitals or clinics found to have participated in abortions outside of the boundaries of the health of the mother should be fined and financially smacked-down by the federal government. Each procedure should be looked-over by a panel of doctors and administrators after such a procedure and a board should be able to punish any doctor who did such a procedure unethically or with loose interpretations of the law. Abortion should be a crime.**

Whether you realize it or not you are out of step with the RCC. The RCC says no abortions. PERIOD. Not even to save the mother’s life. Ectoptic preganancy is potentially fatal. Oftentimes surgery is not an option. In that circumstance the RCC demands that she risk death or be excommunicated. Don’t take my word for it, your catholic brethren will tell you so

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95532

Even JPII said that abortions can never, under any circumstances, be permitted in Evangelium Vitae. They did not mention that during my RCIA class either.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We are in the Diocese of The Holy Spirit which is where many parishes are until the time arrives to go into newly formed geographical diocese. When that time comes we may be in a Michigan based diocese or maybe the Midwest Diocese which is going to be based in Chicago. My priest was elected to the Executive Board of the Diocese of The Holy Spirit back around Holy Week of this year.

I can’t express it enough how Schiori has made a joke out of herself. Wasn’t it fitting that their convention was in Anehiem CA? Not just one Disneyland but two!

No doubt, Justy! No doubt! Disneyland is indeed appropriate as Schiori lives in Never-Never Land…lol…

You and I can joke about Schiori but she’s the devil-incarnate IMO. She is suing the pants off the San Joaquin Diocese here and winning. Very soon every piece of property here will go to that witch and these poor ACNA Anglicans will be out on their ear languishing without a physical home. God bless them and you all!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

gurneyhalleck1;5663596:

Whether you realize it or not you are out of step with the RCC. The RCC says no abortions. PERIOD

. Not even to save the mother’s life. Ectoptic preganancy is potentially fatal. Oftentimes surgery is not an option. In that circumstance the RCC demands that she risk death or be excommunicated. Don’t take my word for it, your catholic brethren will tell you so

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95532

Even JPII said that abortions can never, under any circumstances, be permitted in Evangelium Vitae. They did not mention that during my RCIA class either.

**Well I don’t base my theology on my brethren but would prefer to look at the catechism, papal statements, and Church teachings holistically. There are Catholics on CAF that say a lot of things that I don’t agree with. Some here would indeed jeopardize their wife’s life for a baby. I would not. My wife and I have made decisions at times that were at odds with the Church. I’m no saint. I never claim that! **

 

[VARC]

VARC;5663636:

**Well I don’t base my theology on my brethren but would prefer to look at the catechism, papal statements, and Church teachings holistically. There are Catholics on CAF that say a lot of things that I don’t agree with. Some here would indeed jeopardize their wife’s life for a baby. I would not. My wife and I have made decisions at times that were at odds with the Church. I’m no saint. I never claim that! **

Evangelium Vitae, the authoratative papal statement on abortion, teaches that no abortion is permitted. Not even to save her life. Not even if the embryo is certain to die anyway. No compromise.

Reminds me of Rorschach from Watchmen by Alan Moore: “No compromise. Never. Not even in the face of Armageddon” He was willing to risk the destruction of the entire world rather than to tell a lie that would prevent it.

I am happy to to know that you aren’t in lockstep with the Pope on this. You are a credit to your church.

 

[Justy90]

No doubt, Justy! No doubt! Disneyland is indeed appropriate as Schiori lives in Never-Never Land…lol…

You and I can joke about Schiori but she’s the devil-incarnate IMO. She is suing the pants off the San Joaquin Diocese here and winning. Very soon every piece of property here will go to that witch and these poor ACNA Anglicans will be out on their ear languishing without a physical home. God bless them and you all!!

It’s all too bad. So many folks have left so much behind to strive on toward the Gospel and people like Schiori just revel in it. I remember in 07’ when we split from the Episcopal church that we were in, the Bishop and his Chancellor tried to make our priest look like a fool (unsuccessfully though!). God’s truth rang out that night though. It was apparent after the Vestry split and those of us that left marched out hand in hand in support of our priest and our beliefs. What in the hell is wrong with those folks? You can’t claim to be a Christian and affirm to Schiori’s statement of, "Jesus is just one way to Salvation (not the only way).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s all too bad. So many folks have left so much behind to strive on toward the Gospel and people like Schiori just revel in it. I remember in 07’ when we split from the Episcopal church that we were in, the Bishop and his Chancellor tried to make our priest look like a fool (unsuccessfully though!). God’s truth rang out that night though. It was apparent after the Vestry split and those of us that left marched out hand in hand in support of our priest and our beliefs. What in the hell is wrong with those folks? You can’t claim to be a Christian and affirm to Schiori’s statement of, "Jesus is just one way to Salvation (not the only way).

I hear ya. Schiori, IMO, is Satan’s minion. I think Satan works through folks and comes around from time to time. Schiori is his latest avatar. How could any Christian seriously look at the Episcopal Church and Schiori and think it even resembles Christianity at all? Women’s ordination, abortion, gay ‘marriages,’ quasi-polytheism, ordination of a Buddhist (!!), Gene Robinson, and finally the summit of their sinfulness—suing the pants off of conservative Anglicans. That is the final piece of the puzzle that exposes their evil…who would SUE a fellow Christian group? Can you imagine that? It’s just diabolical? It’s just plain bizarre. I just can’t believe those Episcopalians who stick around and try to be apologists for this lunatic? Anglicanism is a mess and the forecast is cloudy with a chance of collapse! But my hat goes off to guys like Iker, Schofield, and Venables who are standing up to this bogus garbage. I think Anglicanism is in serious trouble and perhaps God is behind this? Discerning His will is never easy as we do not think as He thinks, our minds are far from His will. He could be realigning Anglicans to a better place or wiping them off the map to bring them home to Rome? Heck, I don’t know. I just pray for grace, strength, and holy stubbornness for these Anglicans. I applaud them for their willingness to take on lady Katherine’s dictatorship machine…

 

[VARC]

I hear ya. Schiori, IMO, is Satan’s minion. I think Satan works through folks and comes around from time to time. Schiori is his latest avatar. How could any Christian seriously look at the Episcopal Church and Schiori and think it even resembles Christianity at all? Women’s ordination

I don’t believe that WO is such an evil thing. I believe it is an idea whose time. It’s funny that Christians are repulsed by sexual discrimantion in every other facet of social life except in church.

abortion

First let me state that TEC doesn’t have any position on abortion at all so they can’t be considered pro-abortion. That being said, the fact that they don’t take any stand at all is troubling and I admit it. But then again, the RCC’s stand on abortion is problematic as well as we have just seen in the case of ectopic pregnancy. We’ll just have to say that neither church’s disposition on this issue is correct. Unless you want to revisit the RCCs attitude toward ectoptic pregnancy…

gay ‘marriages’

First, you may not realize that TEC isn’t proposing gay marriages. Gay unions will not be using the ritual The celebration and blessing of a Marriage found on p423 on the BCP. They will be using a new ritual that emphasizes love, friendship, and partnership. One can google for examples. Not that that matters to you, but I did feel the need to clarify that. There is an interesting thread about homosexuality so I don’t feel the need to drag that here. Needlessly to say that there are many Christians revisiting this topic and how the Gospel applies to it.

quasi-polytheism

That’s not fair. There may be some individual Episcopalians that have some unorthodox ideas but the hardly translate to the teaching of TEC. One could easily do the same thing to the RCC. Some individual Catholics have some pretty disturbing ideas as well.

ordination of a Buddhist (!!)

I don’t know if you are aware, but the Christian preist who practiced elements of Buddahism was denied ordination to the episcopate by TEC. in.christiantoday.com/articles/episcopal-church-nullifies-election-of-priest-with-buddhist-ties/4291.htm

Gene Robinson

I agree that the ordination of Robinson was a bad idea. The purpose of a bishop is to unify the church. This ordination was more of a political statement that only served to divide the church. Very sad.

and finally the summit of their sinfulness—suing the pants off of conservative Anglicans. That is the final piece of the puzzle that exposes their evil…who would SUE a fellow Christian group? Can you imagine that? It’s just diabolical? It’s just plain bizarre.

Ask yourself what would happen to a RC parish if they told the diocese that they were breaking away to join another episcopal jurisdiction. What do you think would happen to them?

It’s funny because both of of are on ground zero for this thing. I’m in the episcopal diocese of Virginia where the parishes of Truro and the Falls Church have seperated and joined CANA. I don’t believe that parishes should be able to that. In traditional Christianity, the bishop was in charge of the local church not the rector or the vestry. If they have have a problem they can leave.

But I agree with you about the diocese of San Jaoquin. The bishop, with the support of his diocese, made a decision to seperate from TEC. I don’t believe that TEC has any legitimate claim to the property of his diocese.

It surprised me to hear that the diocese is losing the legal battle. The virginia parishes have won the case and TEC has appealed to the Supreme Court of VA.

I just can’t believe those Episcopalians who stick around and try to be apologists for this lunatic?

I don’t think that the PB has served TEC or the AC very well. The ethos of Anglicanism has always been tolerance and learning to live with the differences of others like the Elizabethan Compromise. The Anglo-catholics would have to go without the six candles in order to not scandalize their low church brethren. Bishop Schori hasn’t followed the Queen’s example.

Anglicanism is a mess and the forecast is cloudy with a chance of collapse!

What has happened to Anglicanism only mirrors what has happened to the entire Christian Church over history. Stubborn prelates want to have their way or the highway. Can you honestly say that the Pope has never been guilty of the same. The Great Schism could be over tommorow if the Pope backed down from his insistence of papal supremacy and infallibility. But he is not going to do that. The difference is that such stubborness and an unwillingness to compromise in order to maintain unity is uncharacteristic of Anglicanism.

 

[elgar]

It’s all too bad. So many folks have left so much behind to strive on toward the Gospel and people like Schiori just revel in it. I remember in 07’ when we split from the Episcopal church that we were in, the Bishop and his Chancellor tried to make our priest look like a fool (unsuccessfully though!). God’s truth rang out that night though. It was apparent after the Vestry split and those of us that left marched out hand in hand in support of our priest and our beliefs. What in the hell is wrong with those folks? You can’t claim to be a Christian and affirm to Schiori’s statement of, "Jesus is just one way to Salvation (not the only way).

My wife and I left our parish in TEC six months ago. We are now part of an energized group of folks part of the ACNA and can honestly say we have NO regrets. We left all the worldly things behind. Sure there are a lot of uncertainties about this new conglomeration, but we no longer have to apologize for our church, heretical thrice-married bishops, un-Christian behavior coming from on high like depositions and lawsuits, etc. to people asking questions about our brand. Our mission statement is Jesus and service to others centered. All the garbage is no longer. We can now get on with spreading the Good News to others.

 

[Justy90]

My wife and I left our parish in TEC six months ago. We are now part of an energized group of folks part of the ACNA and can honestly say we have NO regrets. We left all the worldly things behind. Sure there are a lot of uncertainties about this new conglomeration, but we no longer have to apologize for our church, heretical thrice-married bishops, un-Christian behavior coming from on high like depositions and lawsuits, etc. to people asking questions about our brand. Our mission statement is Jesus and service to others centered. All the garbage is no longer. We can now get on with spreading the Good News to others.

Amen. Your experience has mirrored mine in so many ways. I strongly believe that God has lit our torches and the holy spirit will continue to lead us to things that we never knew were possible. I too am in the Diocese of the Holy Spirit (so properly named). My priest was elected to the Board of Directors of the Diocese.

I’m glad to hear your story and glad to know you.

 

[Justy90]

I hear ya. Schiori, IMO, is Satan’s minion. I think Satan works through folks and comes around from time to time. Schiori is his latest avatar. How could any Christian seriously look at the Episcopal Church and Schiori and think it even resembles Christianity at all? Women’s ordination, abortion, gay ‘marriages,’ quasi-polytheism, ordination of a Buddhist (!!), Gene Robinson, and finally the summit of their sinfulness—suing the pants off of conservative Anglicans. That is the final piece of the puzzle that exposes their evil…who would SUE a fellow Christian group? Can you imagine that? It’s just diabolical? It’s just plain bizarre. I just can’t believe those Episcopalians who stick around and try to be apologists for this lunatic? Anglicanism is a mess and the forecast is cloudy with a chance of collapse! But my hat goes off to guys like Iker, Schofield, and Venables who are standing up to this bogus garbage. I think Anglicanism is in serious trouble and perhaps God is behind this? Discerning His will is never easy as we do not think as He thinks, our minds are far from His will. He could be realigning Anglicans to a better place or wiping them off the map to bring them home to Rome? Heck, I don’t know. I just pray for grace, strength, and holy stubbornness for these Anglicans. I applaud them for their willingness to take on lady Katherine’s dictatorship machine…

I empathize with you over these good parishes and diocese losing their legal battle over properties with TEC. Archbishop Gregory Venables is an awesome speaker and a great motivator for Anglicans beyond the Southern Cone. We watched a few of his sermons just before we split with our diocese.

I will have to say that I don’t feel at all like Anglicanism is imploding. If anything, provinces like TEC and Canada’s church will eventually be on the outside looking in. Are you are familiar with what GAFCON was? I got the priviledge to experience some of it. Anglicanism is better for it and I believe that it will endure and emerge strongly. We are already seeing that in Africa and South America. There are more folks in church on a Sunday morning in the country of Uganda alone than in the Entire British Isles and the U.S. combined.