To the global warming nay-sayers

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One of the troubling aspects about all of this, is the fact that man-made global warming is still very much open to conjecture. There are many, many good scientists that hold opposing views towards this. Although, you wouldn’t get that feeling that this is the case on here sometimes. I get the feeling that these skeptical scientists aren’t really taken very seriously by some, and are largely written off as “kooks” or “denialists.” Some actually hold animosity towards those of us who are skeptical about all of this, and aren’t perceived to be on the same page with them. This was experienced on a similar thread right here not so long ago. Some of us who are skeptical were actually told in no uncertain terms, that we would be going to hell and that our souls could be damned for our disbelief! :rolleyes: Now that’s one hell of a bold proclamation…don’t you think? How in the world could you ever come to this assumption? Is this Church teaching? Is this in the CCC? And who are you trying to win over with this attitude? I realize that some recent Popes have voiced concerns about global warming, but saying you’re damned if you are skeptical? In my opinion, I think some of this “alarmist” thinking borders on idolatry in some respects, in that they put the environment before God and cast judgements on those who they think are not “up to snuff.” It gets to the point of obsession. The environment consumes their very being and becomes their god! And their whole attitude about this, and their judgementalism becomes very troubling to me, and quite disturbing indeed!..Just some of my thoughts.

Peace, Mark***
 
One of the troubling aspects about all of this, is the fact that man-made global warming is still very much open to conjecture.
It’s been settled for at least a decade, with nearly all climate scientists agreeing. First studies to reach .05 on the null (95% confidence) came out in 1995. However, JPII and I did not need 95% confidence we were harming people and others of God’s creatures to start mitigating and calling on others to mitigate…which we both independently started doing in 1990, 5 years before it reach scientific significance.

Also the greenhouse effect theory has been around for nearly 200 years, and explains quite a bit. It is based on the laws of physics and milliions of years of data, paleoclimatology. And now our current data is supporting our current warming.

People take out insurance on their home with only a slight chance it will be totally destroyed. We likewise should be mitigating climate change, even if we are not totally sure it is happening, esp in cost-effective ways that save us $1000s, without lowering our living standards. That is the very least we should do…if we are moral beings and/or want to save $$$$.
 
It’s been settled for at least a decade, with nearly all climate scientists agreeing. First studies to reach .05 on the null (95% confidence) came out in 1995. However, JPII and I did not need 95% confidence we were harming people and others of God’s creatures to start mitigating and calling on others to mitigate…which we both independently started doing in 1990, 5 years before it reach scientific significance.

Also the greenhouse effect theory has been around for nearly 200 years, and explains quite a bit. It is based on the laws of physics and milliions of years of data, paleoclimatology. And now our current data is supporting our current warming.

People take out insurance on their home with only a slight chance it will be totally destroyed. We likewise should be mitigating climate change, even if we are not totally sure it is happening, esp in cost-effective ways that save us $1000s, without lowering our living standards. That is the very least we should do…if we are moral beings and/or want to save $$$$.
Even the scientists who agree with the proposition that the climate is warming do not necessarily concur with the political solutions proposed to deal with it. The pastoral letters by the bishops caution that political proposals have to take into account the poor. As an example, a gas tax may sound like a great idea, but it has to be taken into account whether the poor (who drive the older more-consuming cars) will be disproportionately affected. Growing corn for ethanol sounds fine, except when the effect on food prices and the Midwestern aquifers is not known. In Oregon, one company appears to have falsely used a single wind facility to obtain the tax credits due to several separate enterprises, at the cost of tens of millions of dollars to a state that is facing larger and larger class sizes.

Just because one is not ready to write a blank check to anyone who claims to care about the environment does not mean one does not understand physics or is not a “moral being”. And, by the way, being a moral being does not mean defending a particular set of “living standards”. If the moral thing to do is to lower our comfort level, then so be it.

If one reads the pastoral letters on the environment, one sees this is not a one-issue matter, nor one that leads to a single course of action. It does not do to imply that it is.
 
Even the scientists who agree with the proposition that the climate is warming do not necessarily concur with the political solutions proposed to deal with it. The pastoral letters by the bishops caution that political proposals have to take into account the poor. As an example, a gas tax may sound like a great idea, but it has to be taken into account whether the poor (who drive the older more-consuming cars) will be disproportionately affected. Growing corn for ethanol sounds fine, except when the effect on food prices and the Midwestern aquifers is not known. In Oregon, one company appears to have falsely used a single wind facility to obtain the tax credits due to several separate enterprises, at the cost of tens of millions of dollars to a state that is facing larger and larger class sizes.
There are 1000s of measures one can take to mitigate climate change; among those I’d say the vast majority save money or have no cost or no net cost.

One could used that saved money to help the poor, so I really don’t see how the poor will suffer. In fact Hunter Lovins said that the poor cannot afford not to caulk their windows, etc. And I remember a case of a very poor woman in Chicago having a $400 gas bill in her one BR apt back in the 90s, when our gas bill out in Aurora (where the temps are lower in winter bec it doesn’t get the warming lake effect) for a large 3 BR house was about $100 that same month. She couldn’t pay, she was in dire straights. But imagine if she or someone had gone in and caulked her windows and made her apt energy conservative/efficient, her gas bill probably would have been $60.

I’m against raising gas taxes, etc. in the name of mitigating global warming – the only thing that does is make people pay more. It in no way lowers a persons GHG emissions. People have to consciously decide to do that themselves, either to save $$$ or to save lives & reduce harms to others, or both.

I might be for a money-neutral “fee & dividend” in which the energy fees collected go back to the people equally divvied up; then they could decide if they want to use that money to become energy/resource efficient/conservative and get onto the track of saving $$, or just stay at they inefficient level at no extra cost. Of course that women I wrote about would be paying more bec of her tremendous waste of gas, so there should also be programs available to help people become energy conservative/efficient if they want to go on that track.

The rich will probably ignore all this and just pay more for their much higher energy use.
Just because one is not ready to write a blank check to anyone who claims to care about the environment does not mean one does not understand physics or is not a “moral being”. And, by the way, being a moral being does not mean defending a particular set of “living standards”. If the moral thing to do is to lower our comfort level, then so be it.
If one reads the pastoral letters on the environment, one sees this is not a one-issue matter, nor one that leads to a single course of action. It does not do to imply that it is.
The Bible clearly states “thou shalt not kill” and gives us plenty of instruction not to harm others financially or physically, but it does not specify or limit by what means (nor by what means to reduce that harm).

One who understands AGW is killing and harming people in various ways, if that person is a moral being of any mainstream religion, would probably connect the dots and strive to reduce their harm.

Of course if people refuse to even consider AGW and its well-established harms are real, then I suppose they are not culpable of any sin…as long as that is their sincere belief and no one has told them to the contrary. The vast majority of people in my personal world are not very cognizant of AGW and are not doing much about it.

And my husband gets sick of hearing me talk about it, saying we don’t have children, or “they” will come up with solution, but nevertheless he goes along with nearly everything I suggest we do to mitigate it. And for that God has truly blessed me with a terrific husband. And I’ve even heard him talking about enviro issues and solutions to others when he didn’t know I was listening…and in some circles he’s considered an environmentalist himself 🙂

I sort of think that many who are skeptical of AGW are so bec it would place a moral burden of responsibility on them, and also perhaps threatens to damage their self-image.

I remember in 1990 when I came to grips with the fact that I was harming others thru AGW and it was my responsibility to do something about it – I felt just terrible, esp since I didn’t have hardly any idea what to do about it. I spent that Lent on the cross next to Jesus, the Good Thief who was repentant, but couldn’t get down an recitify my sins, until Holy Week when I realized I was the Roman soldier pounding the nails into Jesus – except I knew what I was doing. I prayed and prayed that Jesus show me the way to solve this problem.

People may think I crazy for feeling that way, but that’s how I felt. And I was so glad and happy that Jesus forgave me anyway, and then ecstatic as my prayers were answered and I began to find one solution after another. CF bulbs were just out then, we got a low-flow showerhead and installed a low-flush toilet, caulked our windows, put a water heater jacket on, put forth effort to turn out lights not in use, installed a new fixture in our breakfast area (going from 5-60 watt incandescants in amber chimneys to 1-15 watt globe CF bulb, in a new bevelled glass and oak fixture – the floor model in K-Mart for $49.99). We watched our energy bills reduce, and the following year when we got our SunFrost frig the electric bill took a big nose-dive.

Where there is a will to do good (or reduce bad) God will show the way.
 
Not on a matter of science. If the Pope thinks that there is GW, that is his belief based on the scientific facts that he has seen. Others may come to different conclusions based on their own research. The infallibility of the Pope, bishops, and Church only applies to faith and morals. The Church leaves scientific research up to the scientists of the world. There have been convincing studies on both sides of the GW argument. To my knowledge, the only binding belief that could come from the Pope is if he made a Church Law that the members of the Church should do whatever they can, within their power, to combat harming the environment, and to promote greener living. The Pope cannot say that we must believe GW is true.
I taught a religious ed class on environmental stewardship. We talked about climate deniers. I showed a graphic of scientists… 97 on one side and 3 on the other. I asked them to consider this. 97 doctor’s reviewed your medical test, biopsies and images and told you that you needed to cut out that cancerous tumor or it will kill you in the next few years. Three doctors told you that you that your tumor was natural, made up your own cells. How can your own cells kill you? What would you do? What if it was your mom or your little brother or sister? Would you do the hard work and go for the surgery or would you relax and let the cancerous cells, your own natural cancerous cells, continue to exist inside you? That’s climate change. We can either let it go or we can try to minimize the impact as much as we can by acting now.

I reminded the kids about how each and every one of us needs to be good stewards of our planet. We shouldn’t pollute it and we shouldn’t waste valuable resources. We talked about the serious lack of food, fresh water and sanitation that affects the majority of humans alive right now. We also discussed the animals on the brink of extinction and the devastation of our rain forests, which produces much of the oxygen we breathe. We talked about WHAT WE CAN DO as individuals, as consumers, as companies and as members of our church, community & nation to heal our planet. Parents loved it and the kids felt empowered to take on the huge of job of being stewards of our big blue beautiful gift from God.

We can chose to heed the call or take a pass, leaving the results for our grandkids to worry about.
 
I taught a religious ed class on environmental stewardship. We talked about climate deniers. I showed a graphic of scientists… 97 on one side and 3 on the other. I asked them to consider this. 97 doctor’s reviewed your medical test, biopsies and images and told you that you needed to cut out that cancerous tumor or it will kill you in the next few years. Three doctors told you that you that your tumor was natural, made up your own cells. How can your own cells kill you? What would you do? What if it was your mom or your little brother or sister? Would you do the hard work and go for the surgery or would you relax and let the cancerous cells, your own natural cancerous cells, continue to exist inside you? That’s climate change. We can either let it go or we can try to minimize the impact as much as we can by acting now.

I reminded the kids about how each and every one of us needs to be good stewards of our planet. We shouldn’t pollute it and we shouldn’t waste valuable resources. We talked about the serious lack of food, fresh water and sanitation that affects the majority of humans alive right now. We also discussed the animals on the brink of extinction and the devastation of our rain forests, which produces much of the oxygen we breathe. We talked about WHAT WE CAN DO as individuals, as consumers, as companies and as members of our church, community & nation to heal our planet. Parents loved it and the kids felt empowered to take on the huge of job of being stewards of our big blue beautiful gift from God.

We can chose to heed the call or take a pass, leaving the results for our grandkids to worry about.
This thread is almost a year old. Try not to resurrect old threads like this, since it is likely that the people involved have moved on, or even left the forum.

If you are interested in this topic, feel free to start a new thread.
 
One of the troubling aspects about all of this, is the fact that man-made global warming is still very much open to conjecture.
97% of climate scientists believe in human made climate change and 99% of all peer reviewed articles on the subject are in support of it. We have a small # of scientists, only 1 of which is an actual climatologist, who are not sure. Just like we have a small number of scientists who do not believe cancer is bad for you or who believe that repeated bee stings will cure you of MS. Whatever. There are some in every crowd, even in climatology. But that doesn’t give us an excuse not to be good stewards of our world. If most of our learned scientists tell us we are hurting the planet and we need to treat it better, why should we ignore them? Even if they were wrong which is a statistical improbability, what is being proposed would only succeed in making our world a healthier planet for all life forms.

The people in Congress, the road blocks to real change, are not scientists. Our climatologists are either university or government based. None of them have the deep pockets of the companies who are fighting climate change proposals. The climate will always lose because humans will always fall prey to greed. And that is a fact we will all have to face. Most of see the cliff before us but none of us are strong enough to tell the drivers to change course. Pope John Paul made strong hard comments about climate change. Pope Benedict addressed it and now Pope Francis has pointed out our sins against God’s gift. But even he and all the members of God’s church are not strong enough to stand up to the deep pockets that steer our future.
 
I showed a graphic of scientists… 97 on one side and 3 on the other…
Perhaps you can answer this for me since you are familiar with this and I’ve wondered whenever I hear this 97% number. Exactly where did the 97% number come from? What are the exact number of scientists that were on one side or the other? Were there any that weren’t on either side?
 
I doubt so-called “global warming” is happening today. Look at the historical record. Years back, the earth was going to cool according to the experts. IF global warning is happening, who is responsible?

Global corporations spewing tons of pollutants into the air.

Global corporations not using existing technology to “scrub” emissions to at least reduce the worst of them.

Landfills that generate methane and burn it in the open air, instead of using it as fuel, but since it has a lower energy output than other fuels, there’s not enough money in it.

Coal can be stripped of certain contaminants but that would increase processing costs.

Ever drive by an oil refinery? The smell of rotten eggs is in the air. That is hydrogen sulfide.

Ever drive by a large city incinerator? I’ve seen grey smoke mixed with a sickly yellow center plume. What is that? Who knows?

What about hospital incinerators?

And why aren’t we putting more money into renewable energy and energy storage systems, especially for solar? It might hurt certain financial interests.

solarreserve.com/what-we-do/csp-technology/

America used to be the ‘can-do’ country. Answers, not debates. Face it, some people get euphoric whenever they hear the word change, but the impact on investors and industry are the driving forces behind a reluctance to do something. In other words, for some, it’s “Will this hurt my company? Will this mean I have to invest elsewhere and pull my money out of an industry I’ve supported for years?”

The average person? Pffft. The peasants are not in the position of those with the money, power and influence to change things.

Peace,
Ed
 
Of course, they are referring to BXVI (not our current pope), and his admonitions to combat climate change. And the verdict has been out for some time – skeptics and denialists have roundly refused to accept whatever BXVI has to say about climate change, some pointing out that BXVI is NOT a scientist and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Some even refuse to engage in climate change mitigation measures that save them money without lowering their living standards; and some even go to the extent to striving to emit more GHGs, even tho it is at greater cost to them (also emitting more of other pollution in the process, which also harms and kills people).

It will be interesting to see if Pope Francis, who majored in science, calls on us to combat climate change how skeptics and deniers react.

Will they reject what he says, because (I’m guessing) he is NOT a climate scientist and doesn’t know what he’s talking about; and the other climate scientists of the world (except a few on oil/coal payrolls) are in some vast conspiracy to fool us all for some nefarious purposes. And Pope Francis, like BXVI and JPII before him, is just a dupe of the conspiracy.

Cafeteria Catholic comes to mind.
It is funny how the global warming fanatics simultaneously accuse the skeptics of conspiracy theories, and at the same time posit a conspiracy that all the scientists who oppose it are on the payroll of the oil companies.

It is interesting how people don’t know a scrap of the science, and have never done a scientific experiment are so fanatical on the issue. They are so gungho, and vitriolic toward anyone who disagrees.

The real question is, can people be trusted? The milgram study showed that people will do anything, including cause another person severe pain, if an authority tells them to. The main thing that this whole global warming bs shows is that people are gullible and have a mob mentality. A few scientists, celebrities, and politicians have come out strongly for global warming; and everyone else jumps on because they don’t want to be singled out as a naysayer. Besides, Matt Damon is cool. They are Jim Jonesers and they have drank the coolaid. They will support any legislation, no matter how corrupt and criminal it is for their cause.
 
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