To the Muslims:

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Sam_777 said:
Yes, as the case in Christianity also, unless you have a different opinion on that ;).
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But, that’s just the thing, a Christian doesn’t. A Christian SHOULD, certainly, but, there are people who consider themselves Christian and have sex before marriage and it’s not an issue.

Thank you all who have answered and helped me with this question. I was watching an episode of Law & Order: SVU and it was the third time I saw one particular episode where an illigal Bosnian woman (alledgedly) gets raped and her brother is upset that the authorities acknowledged it because now everybody would know she’s not a virgin. After the third viewing, I thought it best to ask and not get my knowledge from a TV show.
 
adstrinity said:
But, that’s just the thing, a Christian doesn’t. A Christian SHOULD, certainly, but, there are people who consider themselves Christian and have sex before marriage and it’s not an issue.

Thank you all who have answered and helped me with this question. I was watching an episode of Law & Order: SVU and it was the third time I saw one particular episode where an illigal Bosnian woman (alledgedly) gets raped and her brother is upset that the authorities acknowledged it because now everybody would know she’s not a virgin. After the third viewing, I thought it best to ask and not get my knowledge from a TV show.
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how do you even know she was a muslim? (unless she was wearing hijab or her name was ayesha ibn abdullah or something) dunno i dont watch those shows

wasalam
 
ZAKI said:
how do you even know she was a muslim? (unless she was wearing hijab or her name was ayesha ibn abdullah or something) dunno i dont watch those shows

wasalam
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I’ve seen this episode and she is clearly identified as a Muslim in the show.
 
planten said:
The case of a raped lady is different. It is no fault of her own unless she asked for it.
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you disgust me, how would a woman even ask for it, no women deserves to be raped at ALL.
Even if a woman is dressed provocatively, she is no way at fault, she does not ask for it, she does not deserve it. Men who think women ‘that asked for it’ need to be re-educated
 
dolphinlove said:
you disgust me, how would a woman even ask for it, no women deserves to be raped at ALL.
Even if a woman is dressed provocatively, she is no way at fault, she does not ask for it, she does not deserve it. Men who think women ‘that asked for it’ need to be re-educated
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I don’t bother to respond to him at all any more - don’t waste your time and get upset by the non-sense he posts.
 
quran
024.004
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

024.013
YUSUFALI: Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!

From the Hadith:
Bukhari (5:59:462) - The background for the Qur’anic requirement of four witnesses to adultery. Muhammad’s favorite wife, Aisha, was accused of cheating [on her polygamous husband]. Three witnesses corroborated the event, but Muhammad did not want to believe it, and so established the arbitrary rule that four witnesses are required.

thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/002-rape_adultery.htm
 
jakasaki said:
I don’t bother to respond to him at all any more - don’t waste your time and get upset by the non-sense he posts.
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thought i would get in my last few post before i take off, and i had to, things like that make me so angry to read.
 
dolphinlove said:
thought i would get in my last few post before i take off, and i had to, things like that make me so angry to read.
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This “rape” issue with islam requiring 4 witness to “witness” the rape is pathetic on all levels.

When you do take off, stay in touch!

Lov-ya and all my best
JakaSaki
 
jakasaki said:
This “rape” issue with islam requiring 4 witness to “witness” the rape is pathetic on all levels.

When you do take off, stay in touch!

Lov-ya and all my best
JakaSaki
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I had an Islamic professor who had her life threatened several times because she is a Muslim woman who dared to speak out against not only this very issue but other women’s rights issues in Islam as well. Now the best of my knowledge women are required to have four witnesses because the weight of her testimony is not the same as a man’s I read somewhere else that’s there had to be too female witnesses to equal the weight of the testimony of one man I can’t remember where I read it though.
 
jakasaki said:
This “rape” issue with islam requiring 4 witness to “witness” the rape is pathetic on all levels.

When you do take off, stay in touch!

Lov-ya and all my best
JakaSaki
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yeah i just posted the quran and hadith and what it says.
Of course i will stay in touch, im coming to america!
Love ya too
Dolphinlove
 
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

If Y says “the woman X had illicit sexual relationship”…then Y has to bring 4 witnesses…otherwise Y is to be flogged…

so the punishment is on the accuser not the victim…

now what if the woman was raped…

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
Code: 
         During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused                his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne                of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about                what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing                the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was                no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf) 





         Islamic legal scholars interpret rape as a crime in the category                of Hiraba. In ‘Fiqh-us-Sunnah’, hiraba is described                as: ‘a single person or group of people causing public disruption,                killing, forcibly taking property or money, **attacking or raping                women** (hatk al ‘arad), killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture.’ 





         The famous jurist, Ibn Hazm, had the widest definition of hiraba,                defining a hiraba offender as: ‘One who puts people in fear                on the road, whether or not with a weapon, at night or day, in urban                areas or in open spaces, in the palace of a caliph or a mosque,                with or without accomplices, in the desert or in the village, in                a large or small city, with one or more people… making people                fear that they’ll be killed, or have money taken, **or be raped**                (hatk al ‘arad)… whether the attackers are one or many."
Al-Dasuqi held that if a person forced a woman to have sex, his actions would be deemed as committing hiraba. In addition, the Maliki judge Ibn ‘Arabi, relates a story in which a group was attacked and a woman in their party was raped. Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn ‘Arabi replied indignantly that “hiraba with the private parts” is much worse than hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former.
Code: 
         The crime of rape is classified not as a subcategory of ‘zina’                (consensual adultery), but rather as a separate crime of violence                under hiraba. This classification is logical, as the "taking"                is of the victim’s property (the rape victim’s sexual                autonomy) by force. In Islam, sexual autonomy and pleasure is a                fundamental right for both women and men (Ghazâlî);                taking by force someone’s right to control the sexual activity                of one’s body is thus a form of hiraba. 



         Rape as hiraba is a violent crime that uses sexual intercourse                as a weapon. The focus in a hiraba prosecution is the accused rapist                and his intent and physical actions, and not second-guessing the                consent of the rape victim. Hiraba does not require four witnesses                to prove the offense, circumstantial evidence, medical data and                expert testimony form the evidence used to prosecute such crimes.




         Islamic legal responses to rape are not limited to a criminal prosecution                for hiraba. Islamic jurisprudence also provides an avenue for civil                redress for a rape survivor in its law of "jirah" (wounds).                Islamic law designates ownership rights to each part of one’s                body, and a right to corresponding compensation for any harm done                unlawfully to any of those parts. Islamic law calls this the ‘law                of jirah’ (wounds). Harm to a sexual organ, therefore, entitles                the person harmed to appropriate financial compensation under classical                Islamic jirah jurisprudence. Each school of Islamic law has held                that where a woman is harmed through sexual intercourse (some include                marital intercourse), she is entitled to financial compensation                for the harm. Further, where this intercourse was without the consent                of the woman, the perpetrator must pay the woman both the basic                compensation for the harm, as well as an additional amount based                on the ‘diyya’ (financial compensation for murder, akin                to a wrongful death payment).
muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/rape_in_islam.asp
 
Hadi said:
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

If Y says “the woman X had illicit sexual relationship”…then Y has to bring 4 witnesses…otherwise Y is to be flogged…

so the punishment is on the accuser not the victim…

now what if the woman was raped…

~ snip ~

muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/rape_in_islam.asp
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I’m sorry - flogging in the 21st century is STILL A BARBARIC ACT - regardless who raped who - who had witness - who did what.

There are court systems for such behavour with jail and punishment time.

Flogging, whipping, stoning, head chopping, hand choping is old and BARBARIC and inhumane - regardless of the crime.

Assign a judge and jury - produce witness(es) have judgement by jury of equal peers, assing jail time just like we do in civilized nations.

Enough!!!

:mad:
 
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jakasaki:
Why do we have some Christians supporting the “barbaric and uncivilized” death penalty ??
 
Hadi said:
YUSUFALI: During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

What sin did she commit that Allah ‘forgave’ her?
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Jay53 said:
What sin did she commit that Allah ‘forgave’ her?
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Since this case was in public , the prophet wanted to make sure that everyone will think of her as pure (without sexual sin)…
 
jakasaki said:
Explain yourself Hadi - what do you mean by your inquiry/question?
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this was a response to your saying “*I’m sorry - flogging in the 21st century is STILL A BARBARIC ACT”

so I asked ,* Why do we have some Christians supporting the “barbaric and uncivilized” death penalty ??
 
Hadi said:
Since this case was in public , the prophet wanted to make sure that everyone will think of her as pure (without sexual sin)…
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That doesn’t make sense.

He said “Allah has** forgiven **you”. That explicitly says she did something wrong for which she needed forgiveness. What did she do that needed forgiveness?
 
Jay53 said:
That doesn’t make sense.

He said “Allah has** forgiven **you”. That explicitly says she did something wrong for which she needed forgiveness. What did she do that needed forgiveness?
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I’m only speculating here since I’m not familiar with this incident and it’s the first time I’ve seen the hadith. I presume the word translated as “forgiven” is the arabic root “Ghafara” which is commonly translated as forgiven. The word Ghafara also means to watch over someone, or to cover something. This meaning does not imply sin, it just means by being raped, the woman would find herself in harm and trouble by the people, and therefore she would be guarded by Allah from trouble by the people over this incident.
 
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