To the Muslims:

[Aydan]

Yes. Therefore, Islamic law is unfair to the woman. Regardless of whether she left the house with or without permission, a man still has no right to rape her. A man should never take advantage of woman simply because he finds the opportunity to find her alone. If the Islamic law finds fault in the woman for being raped because she left the house without permission, then this same law is also guilty of treating women unequal as human beings and in dignity to begin with.

no Islamic law is not inherently bad it is the way that it is interpreted in countries like Pakistan Saudi Arabia in some cases Turkey.

 

[Aydan]

Great…now people will think this is Islam

Why don’t you try reading everything before you make assumptions thank youlet me say again it is not an Islamic law itself that’s the problem is the interpretation of law in Saudi Arabia Pakistan Afghanistan that is the problem this does not mean it represents Islam. There now everybody won’t think that Saudi Arabia represents Islam. I’m going to do my Turkish I’ve had enough of you putting me down for one night.

 

[famdigy]

I don’t quite understand what you mean here. Could you please explain more? I don’t understand why the woman would find herself in harm and trouble by the people. Doesn’t the people understand that she was a victim and not at fault? Why would the people give her any kind of trouble over this incident?

We sometimes take for granted the rights and freedoms we have. Many of the Women’s rights we acknowledge and live by today, weren’t around say 60 years ago. So how about 1400 years ago?

I would imagine the social stigma associated with being raped is very harsh in a society that has for centuries treated women like property that are owned and passed on from father to son, and at some point a new precedent would have to be set for how rape victims are viewed by the society. In a way, the words spoken by the Prophet (pbuh&hf) serve as a public disclaimer of the victim’s innocence.

 

[famdigy]

no Islamic law is not inherently bad it is the way that it is interpreted in countries like Pakistan Saudi Arabia in some cases Turkey.

My sentiments exactly

 

[ZAKI]

Yes. Therefore, Islamic law is unfair to the woman. Regardless of whether she left the house with or without permission, a man still has no right to rape her. A man should never take advantage of woman simply because he finds the opportunity to find her alone. If the Islamic law finds fault in the woman for being raped because she left the house without permission, then this same law is also guilty of treating women unequal as human beings and in dignity to begin with.

What don’t you understand? This is NOT islamic law. This is an arabian tradition which most muslims find stupid.

wasalam

 

[Selene]

What don’t you understand? This is NOT islamic law. This is an arabian tradition which most muslims find stupid.

wasalam

Then the tradition should be changed or the Islamic law made very clear so that no one can misinterpret it. It is right for Allah to protect a rape victim from the people who will harm her or cause trouble to her. It is very unfortunate that the people of Mohammed’s time were not taught to be more compassionate toward the victim. Perhaps, if they were taught this from the very beginning, it would not be a tradition carried on through the generations. However, this is now the 21st century, and people are more likely to see that this kind of tradition should be done away with.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[ZAKI]

Then the tradition should be changed or the Islamic law made very clear so that no one can misinterpret it. It is right for Allah to protect a rape victim from the people who will harm her or cause trouble to her. It is very unfortunate that the people of Mohammed’s time were not taught to be more compassionate toward the victim. Perhaps, if they were taught this from the very beginning, it would not be a tradition carried on through the generations. However, this is now the 21st century, and people are more likely to see that this kind of tradition should be done away with.

Peace be with you,
Selene

Inshallah this tradition ends. Also you have to consider that the people of Muhammed (pbuh)'s time were pagans and had many weird beliefs. One of them was burying their baby daughters ALIVE. Alhamdullilah when Muhammed (pbuh) came; he put a stop to this. A reason why he was so hated during those times by his enemies is because he said that women were equal to men and during those times in Arabia-the pagans believed that men were greater than women and that women were just there to give off springs to their husband.

wasalamu alaykum (peace be upon you as well)

 

[Selene]

We sometimes take for granted the rights and freedoms we have. Many of the Women’s rights we acknowledge and live by today, weren’t around say 60 years ago. So how about 1400 years ago?

I would imagine the social stigma associated with being raped is very harsh in a society that has for centuries treated women like property that are owned and passed on from father to son, and at some point a new precedent would have to be set for how rape victims are viewed by the society. In a way, the words spoken by the Prophet (pbuh&hf) serve as a public disclaimer of the victim’s innocence.

Yes, times have now changed. It is not the way as it was many years ago. Even women in America had to struggle at one point in time just to gain the right to vote and other civil rights.

In my island, it is just the opposite. I come from a matrilineal society where women had more rights than men. A long time ago, only the women were allowed to own property and property rights were handed down from mother to daughter and other female lines. The children belong to the mothers, and faithers had no say in raising them up. Although we had male chiefs, it was the women who voted for them and the women can take them out. Only the women made decisions in the clan. All that changed when the Americans came in. We now have American laws and men today have property rights and all the other rights that we females used to have. However, the women still have some degree of control here in that the children still carry their mother’s names, and women still carry a lot of weight when making decisions in the household.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[Jay53]

Does anyone have any news stories/evidence that someone found harming a rape victim is/had been punished in an Islamic court? Just curious.

Or have any clerics/imams issued any fatwas concerning this issue?

Thank you.

(Please note that I am just curious and don’t wish for this to degenerate into the usual argument about whether honor killings with regard to rape victims are Islamic or just cultural. Thanks. )

 

[Hadi]

Does anyone have any news stories/evidence that someone found harming a rape victim is/had been punished in an Islamic court? Just curious.

Or have any clerics/imams issued any fatwas concerning this issue?

Thank you.

(Please note that I am just curious and don’t wish for this to degenerate into the usual argument about whether honor killings with regard to rape victims are Islamic or just cultural. Thanks. )

independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/three-saudi-rapists-beheaded-in-mecca-705011.html

 

[rtconstant]

Then the tradition should be changed or the Islamic law made very clear so that no one can misinterpret it. It is right for Allah to protect a rape victim from the people who will harm her or cause trouble to her. It is very unfortunate that the people of Mohammed’s time were not taught to be more compassionate toward the victim. Perhaps, if they were taught this from the very beginning, it would not be a tradition carried on through the generations. However, this is now the 21st century, and people are more likely to see that this kind of tradition should be done away with.

Peace be with you,
Selene

I think part of the problem is that Islam relies on a method similar to our separated brethren in order to arrive at proper doctrine. They use their own version of Sola Scriptura. The Quran is the final authority but the Quran cannot interpret itself. So ultimately individual Muslims or individual groups/societies decide what proper practice is in Islam. Now I’m sure that some of our Muslim brothers will argue that there is one proper Islam but ultimately like our Protestant brethren that basically just means “my Islam is correct Islam”.

Most of Muslims on these boards are of a more enlightened bend. But some of their views would be considered liberal or incorrect in large swaths of the Muslim world. To my thinking this is a primary reason why the Islam is distrusted in the West. Because it seems like we’re always getting mixed messages from the Muslim world. Authority is necessary in order to stop heterodox beliefs in a religion. Sunni Islam is particularly vulnerable to this lack of direction. Shia at least at one point had a hereditary system of authority in place, though I think that is gone now. Famidgy can correct me on that if I’m wrong.

To be honest I think that this is part of the problem that exists between Muslims themselves. After all as much as other religions may suffer under Sharia in some parts of the world, Muslims are definitely harsher to each other than they are to rest of us. They are all devoted to a single religion but all have different views in how it should be followed but none of them have any way of really proving that they are right.

Just my view.

 

[Hadi]

I think part of the problem is that Islam relies on a method similar to our separated brethren in order to arrive at proper doctrine. They use their own version of Sola Scriptura. The Quran is the final authority but the Quran cannot interpret itself. So ultimately individual Muslims or individual groups/societies decide what proper practice is in Islam. Now I’m sure that some of our Muslim brothers will argue that there is one proper Islam but ultimately like our Protestant brethren that basically just means “my Islam is correct Islam”.

Most of Muslims on these boards are of a more enlightened bend. But some of their views would be considered liberal or incorrect in large swaths of the Muslim world. To my thinking this is a primary reason why the Islam is distrusted in the West. Because it seems like we’re always getting mixed messages from the Muslim world. Authority is necessary in order to stop heterodox beliefs in a religion. Sunni Islam is particularly vulnerable to this lack of direction. Shia at least at one point had a hereditary system of authority in place, though I think that is gone now. Famidgy can correct me on that if I’m wrong.

To be honest I think that this is part of the problem that exists between Muslims themselves. After all as much as other religions may suffer under Sharia in some parts of the world, Muslims are definitely harsher to each other than they are to rest of us. They are all devoted to a single religion but all have different views in how it should be followed but none of them have any way of really proving that they are right.

Just my view.

Excellent post…

I will add that Sunnis had in the past a unifying authority represented by the Caliphate from the sixth century until its collapse after WW1…yes, they were filled with corruption,but at least they represented a large percentage of the Muslims…Today, Al Azhar is trying to reclaim this role but facing many challenges and obstacles toward the unity in the Islamic legal authority…

 

[Jay53]

independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/three-saudi-rapists-beheaded-in-mecca-705011.html

Thank you, Hadi, but I was looking for a story about persons being punished for harming the rape victim (not the rapist) after she had been raped; i.e. her father kills her to restore “honor” to the family and he is supposed to subsequently be punished for murder. The news story/evidence about the father being punished in an Islamic court is the type of story/evidence I was interested in seeing.

Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

This may or may not be off topic, but I found it interesting, particularly the part I bolded and underlined seeing as how planten is always espousing how we are not kaffir; but this person explicitly says we are (and she happens to be in Cleveland, OH!!)

Assalamu alaikum,
This is a topic most of us would like to hush hush, but I think needs to be addressed seriously.

Muslim women are being harrassed by Muslim men, in Masjid, in Muslim gatherings, and Islamic Schools. And the community is doing nothing about it.

Yes, we may argue, this was the reason the Caliph Omar (r.a.a.) forbade women from coming to the mosques, but **we who live in the land of the Kuffar **know that if we ( and our children) do not get enough exposure to the Islamic Community, we will get more exposure to the Non-Islamic Community, especially, since a lot of the women I am talking about are single women with children.

Recently, my friend, who is a single mother of two boys, and dressed modestly according to Islamic specification, was being stalked by a married brother. She made it clear that she was not interested, but the brother tried to talk to her, phoned, and sent letters. Driven to desperation, she showed the letter to the Imam of the mosque, and complained about the harrassment.

The result was, that though, no action was taken to correct the situation, the wife of the brother attacked the victim physically, in front of her children, saying that she had falsely accused her husband.

This is not an isolated incident. I have experienced harrassment myself, and women won’t talk about it unless prodded.

My question is, are we going to remain silent about it, or are we going to take some kind of action?

The sister stopped going to that particular mosque, but is that a solution? What if she is harrassed out of all the mosques one by one? How is she going to raise her kids as Muslims? How are her boys going to learn about the importance of praying in the mosque?

Salaam,
Sisteronline
Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

themodernreligion.com/women/w_harassmuslims_sis.htm

 

[Jay53]

I don’t even know what to say about this. This clearly says that a woman has to act in a certain way to be “absolved of guilt” - so if the woman wasn’t “careful” enough it’s her own fault she was raped!!!

It’s a fact that, to be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct, in the sense that what befell her must be something beyond her control. This is where Islam excels. In dealing with a certain issue or addressing a certain problem, it brings forth a comprehensive panacea that uproots the problem and eliminates its causes. Rather than stipulating a temporary measure that will act as sedatives, Islam gets down to the root of the problem itself with the aim of uprooting entirely. It sets noble codes of conduct that should prevail in the society; it addresses women to maintain their modesty, as not to open the door for evils:

“… be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.” Surah 33 Verse 32

The above verse, despite addressing the wives of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, actually, in an implicit way, calls upon Muslim women in general to preserve their dignity and modesty, just to save themselves from any harassment. crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/raped_woman_punished.htm

 

[Selene]

I think part of the problem is that Islam relies on a method similar to our separated brethren in order to arrive at proper doctrine. They use their own version of Sola Scriptura. The Quran is the final authority but the Quran cannot interpret itself. So ultimately individual Muslims or individual groups/societies decide what proper practice is in Islam. Now I’m sure that some of our Muslim brothers will argue that there is one proper Islam but ultimately like our Protestant brethren that basically just means “my Islam is correct Islam”.

Most of Muslims on these boards are of a more enlightened bend. But some of their views would be considered liberal or incorrect in large swaths of the Muslim world. To my thinking this is a primary reason why the Islam is distrusted in the West. Because it seems like we’re always getting mixed messages from the Muslim world. Authority is necessary in order to stop heterodox beliefs in a religion. Sunni Islam is particularly vulnerable to this lack of direction. Shia at least at one point had a hereditary system of authority in place, though I think that is gone now. Famidgy can correct me on that if I’m wrong.

To be honest I think that this is part of the problem that exists between Muslims themselves. After all as much as other religions may suffer under Sharia in some parts of the world, Muslims are definitely harsher to each other than they are to rest of us. They are all devoted to a single religion but all have different views in how it should be followed but none of them have any way of really proving that they are right.

Just my view.

Hello rtconstant,

Thank you for expressing your views. This does seem to make more sense. I can now see why Islam can be misinterpreted by different groups and societies in the Muslim world.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[planten]

I think part of the problem is that Islam relies on a method similar to our separated brethren in order to arrive at proper doctrine. They use their own version of Sola Scriptura. The Quran is the final authority but the Quran cannot interpret itself. So ultimately individual Muslims or individual groups/societies decide what proper practice is in Islam. Now I’m sure that some of our Muslim brothers will argue that there is one proper Islam but ultimately like our Protestant brethren that basically just means “my Islam is correct Islam”.

**rtconstant, You are right. But it is not necessary that Quran cannot interpret itself. That is not right. The Quran interprets itself in most cases except few where help is taken from other sources. (Sunnah, Hadith ). Quran is not a helpless thing needing some crutches. I am telling you this honestly, not to degarde you.

There had been bad times when the muslims lost the real knowledge. They then took refuge in other things. There has been a downfall. That has created new science which teaches wrong things to the Muslims today that Quran cannot express itself. It needs hadith etc.
**

Most of Muslims on these boards are of a more enlightened bend. But some of their views would be considered liberal or incorrect in large swaths of the Muslim world. To my thinking this is a primary reason why the Islam is distrusted in the West. Because it seems like we’re always getting mixed messages from the Muslim world. Authority is necessary in order to stop heterodox beliefs in a religion. Sunni Islam is particularly vulnerable to this lack of direction. Shia at least at one point had a hereditary system of authority in place, though I think that is gone now. Famidgy can correct me on that if I’m wrong

.

**The Shia Sunni partition is the worst one amongst Muslims. But the other branches are not close together. Most Muslims are divided. There are many sects and that is a good proof that they do not understand Islam. That is not too bad if they had some sense of improvement and the Will to resolve the differences. There are many sects.

The prophet had predicted that a time will come that the Muslims will do exactly the same bad things as did the Jews and the christians. The companions of the prophet could not believe it.
Then the prophet said “The Jews and christians were divided in 72 sects. The Muslism will be divided into 73 sects. All will be hell bound except one sect.”

The companions asked the prophet " Who will be that sect who will not be hell bound?"

The prophet replied, “That will be the one who is as I am and as are my companions.” In Arabic, he said , “Maa anaa alaihi wa as-haabi.”

So that is the condition of the Muslim Ummah. They are divided spiritually, educationally, morally, mentally and materially.**

To be honest I think that this is part of the problem that exists between Muslims themselves. After all as much as other religions may suffer under Sharia in some parts of the world, Muslims are definitely harsher to each other than they are to rest of us. They are all devoted to a single religion but all have different views in how it should be followed but none of them have any way of really proving that they are right.

Just my view.

During the last 100 years, there was a good chance for the Muslims to advance menatlly and morally, spiritually. But they wasted away their time and energy in building policies for Jihaad. That was absolutely wrong. I know one man who told (120 years ago) that there is no Jihaad now. Jihaad with weapons is Haraam. But the muslims collectively abused him and ex-communicated him, abuse him till this day.

I can only admire the last sentence of your post rtconstant. Please see the verses 23:53 and 30:32 of Quran below as a proof.:

**[23:52] وَإِنَّ هَـٰذِهِۦۤ أُمَّتُكُمۡ أُمَّةً۬ وَٲحِدَةً۬ وَأَنَا۟ رَبُّڪُمۡ فَٱتَّقُونِ

[23:52] And know that this community of yours is one community, and I am your Lord. So take Me as your Protector.

[23:53] فَتَقَطَّعُوٓاْ أَمۡرَهُم بَيۡنَہُمۡ زُبُرً۬ا‌ۖ كُلُّ حِزۡبِۭ بِمَا لَدَيۡہِمۡ فَرِحُونَ

[23:53] But they (the people) have cut up their affairs among themselves forming themselves into parties, each group rejoicing in what they have**.

**[30:32] مِنَ الَّذِيْنَ فَرَّقُوْا دِيْنَهُمْ وَكَانُوْا شِيَعًا ‌ؕ كُلُّ حِزْبِۭۢ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُوْنَ‏

[30:32] Of those who split up their religion and have become divided into sects; every party rejoicing in what they have**.

 

[Sam_777]

The word Ghafara also means to watch over someone, or to cover something. This meaning does not imply sin,

No it does imply sin… :

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366:
Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr:
When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.
She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).
When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.

سنن أبي داود:
أن امرأة خرجت على عهد النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏تريد الصلاة فتلقاها رجل ‏ ‏فتجللها ‏ ‏فقضى حاجته منها فصاحت وانطلق فمر عليها رجل فقالت إن ذاك فعل بي كذا وكذا ومرت ‏ ‏عصابة ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏المهاجرين ‏ ‏فقالت إن ذلك الرجل فعل بي كذا وكذا فانطلقوا فأخذوا الرجل الذي ظنت أنه وقع عليها فأتوها به فقالت نعم هو هذا فأتوا به النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فلما أمر به قام صاحبها الذي وقع عليها فقال يا رسول الله أنا صاحبها ‏ ‏فقال لها اذهبي فقد غفر الله لك وقال للرجل قولا حسنا ‏
قال ‏ ‏أبو داود ‏ ‏يعني الرجل المأخوذ وقال للرجل الذي وقع عليها ارجموه فقال لقد تاب توبة لو تابها أهل ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏لقبل منهم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏أبو داود ‏ ‏رواه ‏ ‏أسباط بن نصر ‏ ‏أيضا ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏سماك
​

(E) (A)

 

[elwill]

What I find most intriguing though is that I can find the most common Arabic phrases used by Muslims on all these Islamic web sites but I cannot find any audio to go with them so here’s another to Muslims question.
You are required to say the prayers in Arabic but my question is how is it possible to learn Arabic properly if they do not include sound on Islamic web sites? Can the Muslims here please explain this?

salat is the only prayer which required to be in arabic , so what is your question exactly ?
are you asking bout audio for arabic quran with it’s translation in english , or what ?

 

[elwill]

Yes. Therefore, Islamic law is unfair to the woman. Regardless of whether she left the house with or without permission, a man still has no right to rape her. A man should never take advantage of woman simply because he finds the opportunity to find her alone. If the Islamic law finds fault in the woman for being raped because she left the house without permission, then this same law is also guilty of treating women unequal as human beings and in dignity to begin with.

who said that man have the rights to rape a woman under such circumstance ?

when allah command women to be chast and to wear hijab and to take the permission from her husband or to not travel lonely
the main purpose for all of that is to protect them andto protect the society as well from such crimes

whatever the reasons which caused the woman to be a victim of rape , the punishment of rapist must be excuted