To the people whom claim Alah is the same God we worship, surely cannot be?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BR549
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

BR549

Guest
I can go along with the idea that the Muslim (Islam) folks wish to believe that, as they also claim everything is from Alah and not Yaweh or I AM or the trinity. It should also be revelant that Islam is around 600 A.D. (Muhammed and a Koran), perhaps they are jealous of the Jews and Christians whom have a much older heritage and some what documented background, in effect they were left out of the loop and Muhammed came forth and is claimed to be a decendant from Ishmael (jewish roots from Abraham). It is said in Genesis that Ishmael ‘was a wild *** of a man and would fight among his brothers’ (interesting note). I don’t know if I can believe Ishmael is their decendant, although it is not impossible presumably. I could claim I am too.
Anyway under Islam it appears that their God is a Master(without family roots or heritage) and the people are slaves and not part of his mystical body-family, is what I am thinking. Our God is a loving father and his son came as a servant with love and mercy and we are connected to his body and family (vine & branches).
Other arguement would include the logic of" if "Islams God(Alah) is the same, how could radical Islam allow killing of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims (this is part of his plan, to create us all and then to allow it to be righteous to kill us for worthless self serving rule by non-righteous killers and of whom would be rewarded in heaven or such with virgins…etc. as a reward program (lol)).
I have seen websites denying them to be the same God and of course I guessed that before even looking elsewhere. If there are legitimate logical reasons otherwise, let’s hear them. I cannot see that arguement at all.
 
It’s the same God, just worshipped through a fog of error–just like other heretics who have a bunch of mistaken notions about God and His commands.

Since we can discover simply from natural reason that there is one Supreme God, traditionally those cultures which acknowledged one Supreme God were considered to have discovered Him. A great example of such a discovery is Aristotle. We can see this in the Scriptures when St. Paul comes across the pagans with an altar to the one God:

Acts 17:23 For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:
 
[BR549;1858200]I can go along with the idea that the Muslim (Islam) folks wish to believe that, as they also claim everything is from Alah and not Yaweh or I AM or the trinity. It should also be revelant that Islam is around 600 A.D. (Muhammed and a Koran), perhaps they are jealous of the Jews and Christians whom have a much older heritage and some what documented background, in effect they were left out of the loop and Muhammed came forth and is claimed to be a decendant from Ishmael (jewish roots from Abraham). It is said in Genesis that Ishmael ‘was a wild *** of a man and would fight among his brothers’ (interesting note). I don’t know if I can believe Ishmael is their decendant, although it is not impossible presumably. I could claim I am too.
Anyway under Islam it appears that their God is a Master(without family roots or heritage) and the people are slaves and not part of his mystical body-family, is what I am thinking. Our God is a loving father and his son came as a servant with love and mercy and we are connected to his body and family (vine & branches).
Other arguement would include the logic of" if "Islams God(Alah) is the same, how could radical Islam allow killing of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims (this is part of his plan, to create us all and then to allow it to be righteous to kill us for worthless self serving rule by non-righteous killers and of whom would be rewarded in heaven or such with virgins…etc. as a reward program (lol)).
Click to expand...
I think you are confusing what Christianity shares with Judaism and Islam in all three being montheists which is how we all share in the same one God. Just because their religion teaches a one God theology doesn’t mean ALL of their theology is correct. No, what is meant by the same God is all three religions share a belief in monotheism, all have a belief in a one God who is creator, judge and all affirm they descend from Abraham.
But let’s be honest, all religions past and present had or have a radical element within, it’s the waywardness effects of human sin.
There were in the OT and still are many over zealous Jews whos radicalism extends against other religions, and the same could be said of the Crusades where there were some over radical Catholics who didn’t follow just war practices given by the Pope.
We had and still have in the US radicals that call themselves “Christians” and burn crosses and hate other people of different races, they would quote the Bible!

And it’s not the Islamic radicals who are affirming the shared view of monotheism between Christianity,Judaism, it’s Catholicism and other Christians who recognize the same aspect of one God in all three. Portions of “some” truth can be found in any religion which can give a small common denominator between Christianity and other religions, but that doesn’t mean all religions are the same in believe or truth; Christianity affirms its truth above all other religions.
Radical Islamists see Christians and Jews as betrayors of God’s (Allah’s) law of strict submission and anyone else for that matter, whether Suni, or Shiite who doesn’t share their same radical belief, so their mentality is the end justifies the means; being blowing up people and killing them with any means possible, and they aren’t just following the one God but more so following a radical view of Mohammed’s confused beliefs about who* is the one God.
I have seen websites denying them to be the same God and of course I guessed that before even looking elsewhere. If there are legitimate logical reasons otherwise, let’s hear them. I cannot see that arguement at all.
Click to expand...
Again, it depends on what one means by “the same God”
If we mean we are all monotheists, that we all believe God is creator, judge and ruler then within that small aspect of “the same God” we do share belief in a one God; that’s all we are saying.

However, that we are all correctly following and worshiping, and have all the same theological beliefs of that one God is NOT correct for we affirm God is ONE and three persons, a Trinity.
 
I disagree that Muslims worship the same God. Anyone who has read a properly translated Qur’an (not the liberalized/Westernized/watered down version American Muslims are apt to give you) knows that Muslims deny the very essence of God as understood and taught by the Jewish prophets and Christian apostles.

I see a similar problem with Christian immitations like Mormonism (of which I am a casualty). I think religions like Mormonism and Islam are similar because they begin with charismatic leaders who try to fit in with the established religious beliefs and gradually twist them into entirely different things.

Joseph Smith originally taught the Trinity. There is actually a short discourse on the Trinity in the Book of Mormon. Gradually, however, Smith began to play around with new theories on the nature of God.

From the Trinity he developed the idea of Two persons of one God: the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit was at that point considered not a person or being, but merely the shared thoughts of the Father or Son.

From there, Smith decided that the Father and Son were completely separate, and human, beings. This was officially defined in what is now known as the King Follet Discourse. *[In it, Smith also taught that God is not the creator of all things because nothing is created. Instead, the Father is really just a human made into a god by **his *God. This cycle never began and will never end because Mormons will be made into gods, produce “spirit offspring” who will become human and in turn, gods themselves.] Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost was not defined for quite some time. Gradually the Holy Ghost came to be known as the third, separate person in the “Godhead.” The Holy Ghost, unlike the Father and Son, is not human and will never possess a human body.

Now, if the several Mormon gods were “inspired” by the one true Christian God but contradict His very essence, are they the same? Do Mormons worship the Creator of All Things?

The answer is, of course, no. Jimmy Akin’s method is both faulty and disputed by the Mormons and the Muslims themselves. When you hear the current Mormon “prophet” saying that the Jesus of the Christians “is not the Christ of whom I speak,” it’s hard to argue! According to Mormon doctrine Jesus: was not always a god, but eventually became one after his mortal life and ressurection; is not one person of the triune God, but is one of billions of separate gods; created nothing and is your, my, and the Devil’s equal; was conceived by ordinary means by the HUMAN “God the Father” having literal, physical sex with Mary; was a polygamist; and on and on…

I could go on this way about Islam as well, but I figured someone else would do it. I just wanted to make the point using Mormonism as an example, since it is more similar to Catholicism than Islam is.
 
Genesis315 said:
We can see this in the Scriptures when St. Paul comes across the pagans with an altar to the one God:

Acts 17:23 For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:
Click to expand...
Eh, not quite. The “unknown god” is not any particular god in Greek polytheism. The altar for the “unknown god” was actually a place holder for any gods that the Greeks were ignorant of or had neglected to build individual shrines for. Paul was using this aspect of their beliefs to introduce what would be a new god to them.
 
GIMJ said:
The answer is, of course, no. Jimmy Akin’s method is both faulty and disputed by the Mormons and the Muslims themselves.
Click to expand...
It may be disputed by them, but this is not our concern. Our beliefs do not need their assent.

What is our concern, and our Churches concern, is how does mankind, in darkness, relate to God?

This topic has been discussed and debated by Christians down through the centuries. Many Catholic philosophers have argued, with incredibly watertight arguments, that even completely ignorant man with no revelation can arrive at the conclusion of a monotheistic Creator. This is affirmed in a simple passage in Romans 1:19-20 where Paul states that God is evident in His creation.

This does not mean that they can arrive at a full understanding of God, but they can understand some things. Then, I think that Jimmy Akins argument is quite forceful. To the extent that the intent of the person praying is to communicate with that which they know about God, they communicate with Him. To the extent that they exclude the real God, they exclude. Don’t forget that God knows the heart, so surely if a Muslim in his heart says, “Merciful God, hear me”, God hears him.

In discussions like this, I am reminded of the story of the blind men and the elephant. Usually, this is a new age story to make all religions equal, but I think it can be adapted.

Four blind men are exploring an elephant. One says, “It’s skinny and has hair on it,” as he grasps the tail. Another says, “No, it’s large around, like a tree,” as he hugs the leg. The third says, “Your wrong, it’s like a wall made of leather,” as he feels the elephants flank. The fourth wanders up near the head and grasps a tusk, he is about to say that they’re all wrong, it’s really hard and bony, but the elephant lovingly picks him up in its trunk and whispers to him, “All together, that makes me what I am, an elephant. Go tell them.”

A bit corny perhaps, but it makes the point. We have the fullness of Truth, because God has revealed it to us. We are not any better than any of the other blind men, and shouldn’t contradict them in their search, but affirm what they have said which is correct, and guide them to the sum.
 
Hi BR,

Beware of prejudice on this question. Since Muslims and Jews believe in one God, who is a person and the creator of all things, and since there can only be one God, they worship the same God as we do. They just do not know the same things about Him.

Say we both have the same neighbor. You live on one side of him, I live on the other. You are no relation to him, but I happen to be his cousin. I know lots more things about him than you do. Does that mean that we don’t have the same neighbor?. Come on!

Verbum
 
BR549 said:
I can go along with the idea that the Muslim (Islam) folks wish to believe that, as they also claim everything is from Alah and not Yaweh or I AM or the trinity. It should also be revelant that Islam is around 600 A.D. (Muhammed and a Koran), perhaps they are jealous of the Jews and Christians whom have a much older heritage and some what documented background, in effect they were left out of the loop and Muhammed came forth and is claimed to be a decendant from Ishmael (jewish roots from Abraham). It is said in Genesis that Ishmael ‘was a wild *** of a man and would fight among his brothers’ (interesting note). I don’t know if I can believe Ishmael is their decendant, although it is not impossible presumably. I could claim I am too.
Anyway under Islam it appears that their God is a Master(without family roots or heritage) and the people are slaves and not part of his mystical body-family, is what I am thinking. Our God is a loving father and his son came as a servant with love and mercy and we are connected to his body and family (vine & branches).
Other arguement would include the logic of" if "Islams God(Alah) is the same, how could radical Islam allow killing of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims (this is part of his plan, to create us all and then to allow it to be righteous to kill us for worthless self serving rule by non-righteous killers and of whom would be rewarded in heaven or such with virgins…etc. as a reward program (lol)).
I have seen websites denying them to be the same God and of course I guessed that before even looking elsewhere. If there are legitimate logical reasons otherwise, let’s hear them. I cannot see that arguement at all.
Click to expand...
I’ve never known Muslims to claim they worship the same God
as Christians and Jews. I’ve only heard it from Christian religious and political leaders, who seem to be trying to instill a little tolerance in us Christians and ecumanism with Muslims.
 
mark_a said:
I’ve never known Muslims to claim they worship the same God
as Christians and Jews. I’ve only heard it from Christian religious and political leaders, who seem to be trying to instill a little tolerance in us Christians and ecumanism with Muslims.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you don’t know many muslims, but the truth is that they do. Ask any imman.

According to Islam: Judaism, Christianity and Islam are but three forms of one religion, which, in its original purity they believe, was the religion of Abraham. Thus, Muslims believe and worship the God of Abraham and Moses as do Christians.

But muslims like Jews reject the Holy Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons who are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent.

Muslims refer to us as “trinitarians” which they claim is not the pure Semitic monotheism that Muslims and Jews adhere to.

They claim that Christians have to contend with believers who in the Old Testament were “non-Trinitarian” or that “Trinitarian Christianity” was largely rejected by the Jews but found fertile ground in pagan communities amongst whom concepts of triune gods were more readily acceptable.

Why Christians who worship the monotheistic God of Abraham like themselves should worship a trinity is a mystery to muslims.

This criticism has already been refuted.

The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness. The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called. Of all revealed truths, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the most impenetrable mystery.

Yours in Christ

Paul
 
Im not sure if you ask a Muslim if we Christians and Jews worship the same God as their Allah.

I personally would like to know if the Muslims pray for their enemies?
I personally would like to know if the Muslims forgive their debtors?
I personally would like to know if the Muslims believe in LOVE from God or their Allah?

Is LOVE any part of the Koran? Does Love of neighbor figure in anywhere in their religion? Does Love transend hate for our differences?

Since God is LOVE and if this is not part of Islam than we do indeed worship different Gods.
 
StMarkEofE said:
Im not sure if you ask a Muslim if we Christians and Jews worship the same God as their Allah.

I personally would like to know if the Muslims pray for their enemies?
I personally would like to know if the Muslims forgive their debtors?
I personally would like to know if the Muslims believe in LOVE from God or their Allah?

Is LOVE any part of the Koran? Does Love of neighbor figure in anywhere in their religion? Does Love transend hate for our differences?
Click to expand...
It’s a question of keeping things in perspective. Muslims know some truth but not all of it. What muslims believe (that which had already been revealed) and what Islam teaches is not the same thing. One reason why Islam is not Christianity. But even then, it could be said that Mormons are Christian but what they teach is antithetical to the one true faith.
 
The God of Islam and the God of Christianity and the Jews are not alike.

When was the last time you or anyone else heard any words of Love for your enemies and neighbor in the Koran?’

God of Israel and Christianity is LOVE. The God of Islam is the God of Subjugation and submission.
 
People who make the claim that Allah is the same God sort of have to qualify their statement. Verbum made a good analogy. People can believe that Allah is the same God only under the condition that the Muslim source of information about the one, true God is corrupt. IOW, the worship the one, true God, but they do not really know Him because the quran is false or partly false. Obviously, the God protrayed in the quran has some similar attributes of the Trinitarian God that cannot be ignored. Those are that there is only one God, He created heaven and earth, He is all powerful, He is omnipotent, etc. There are also glaring differences in the two beliefs: primarily the Trinitarian nature of God and Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

One thing has always perplexed me though. Hopefully, you’ll be able to make sense of what I am trying to say. I have heard both Muslim and Christian commentators say that the Arabs come from Ishmael. If that is true, there are some things we should keep in mind. The Bible tells us that God told Hagar that He would make a great nation of Ishmael. However we are also told about Ishmael in Gen 16:12": He shall be a wild *** of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." :hmmm: (Of course, Muslims do not believe this account of Ishmael, they believe that the covenent promise was about Ishmael, not Isaac.) The thing that perplexes me is this: if the Arabs, through which Islam sprang, are the descendents of Ishmael then they are worshipping the one God, however, what was His role in making them a “great nation” if they do not believe in Christ? God does not contradict Himself, so what gives? Thoughts anyone?
 
StMarkEofE said:
The God of Islam and the God of Christianity and the Jews are not alike.

When was the last time you or anyone else heard any words of Love for your enemies and neighbor in the Koran?’

God of Israel and Christianity is LOVE. The God of Islam is the God of Subjugation and submission.
Click to expand...
OK. Point me out to a muslim who says the God of Islam and the God of Christianity and the Jews is not the same God.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
The thing that perplexes me is this: if the Arabs, through which Islam sprang, are the descendents of Ishmael then they are worshipping the one God, however, what was His role in making them a “great nation” if they do not believe in Christ? God does not contradict Himself, so what gives? Thoughts anyone?
Click to expand...
I’m not really sure what contradiction you’re referring to, because I don’t see one.

However, I think that you may be misreading the word “great” to mean “good” or “excellent.” I simply interpret it to mean “large” and perhaps “powerful.”

As an example, the Soviet Union was a great nation, but it certainly wasn’t an excellent one.

This interpretation of great is becoming somewhat archaic, but it is still a definition of the word in this kind of context. Other examples would be the “great” room in a house, which just means a big room or the family room, or when the word great is used as an intensifier, as in “there was a great big noise.”

Why is this part of God’s plan?

From the perspective of the world today, I have no idea.
 
mark_a said:
true.

I was speaking only of Muslims I see on the tube.
Click to expand...
I think it was Belloc who once said: “The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith” and with the current crisis of Faith in Europe coupled with high muslim immigration, it is not difficult to understand the apprehension Catholics have.
 
I_A said:
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/12/allah_god.html
Click to expand...
The argument presented at that site is seriously flawed. I’ll go through a few bits and explain why I believe this.

“We need not be detained by the fact that the word “Allah” is not the normal English word for God. It is the normal Arabic word for God, and it is used by Arabic-speaking Christians as a designator for the true God all the time.”
-Jimmy Akin

This is flawed. “God” is the normal English word for God. When I mention God and a Hindu (using English) mentions god (in relation to his beliefs) though we use the same English word, we’re not talking about the same being. Thus of course Arabic speaking people, Christian and Moslem, even atheists would, in course of using Arabic use the same word, even though they’re not talking about the same being.

"What characteristics does a Muslim typically envision Allah as having? I would advance the following list as some of the most important characteristics:
  1. Is an uncreated being
  2. Is the creator of the universe
  3. Appeared to Abraham
  4. Is just
  5. Is merciful
  6. Will raise the dead
  7. Is not a Trinity
  8. Is not incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth"
    -Jimmy Akin
This is simply to say that “Moslems claim this, therefore it is true”. Though they claim their god is just and merciful, doesn’t mean that he is. By Christian standards he is anything but. He urges Moslems to think of Christians and Jews as scum.
62: 5 The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Taurat (Torah), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is as the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example (or the likeness) of people who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah. And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers, etc.).

2:96 says that they are the greediest people…

And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allah (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magicians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

2:61 says that al-lah stamped wretchedness upon them.

4:61 Says that they (and Christians) believe in idols

5:52 they are cursed

etc.

In Islam their god deceived people - when Jesus was being persecuted Moslems believe that a substitute was put in his place and this person was made to appear as Jesus.
Some Jews were turned into monkeys and pigs.

5: 60

Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): “Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world).”

Not only that, the Koran also claims that Christians worship Mary like we worship God! Thus they believe in a book (created by their god) which misrepresents our God.

5:116 And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

Other faiths also believe their god was uncreated, creator, etc. as well. By your logic they also, to various degrees also believe in the same God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top