To those who believe in a literal 6 day creation

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Do you also believe that God literally walked with Adam and Eve in a literal garden of Eden here on earth? Do you also believe there was literally a serpent and a tree which bore fruit?
It seems whenever people debate this topic, they start AND end it with the creation story so I’ve never actually heard if ALL of this story is taken as literally true, or just the creation part.

And, if I may probe further…if you DO believe the literal 6 day creation AND the literal garden of Eden and serpent and all of that, could you please explain that position to me? If you DO believe the literal 6 day creation and NOT the literal garden of Eden and all its trappings, could you please explain the difference?

I’m not trying to call anybody out here, but I’m reading ‘Making Sense of the Scriptures’ by Mark Shea, and he talks about this very thing and it got me to wondering.

Thanks in advance for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut. 🙂
 
Yes, I believe in a literal 6 days of creation. I believe God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I believe there was a tree in the midst of the garden that God told Adam not to eat from (what is so hard about believing in a tree with fruit?). I also believe that a serpent tempted Eve. I believe it because it is recorded in the Scriptures. I cannot explain how this was done, but I would remind you that prior to the fall Adam and Eve were sinless (as perfect and holy as man could possibly be). With that in mind, I don’t see any reason why God wouldn’t walk with them in the garden.

As for how it is that creation seems to be much older, I would make 2 points. First, there is no mention of how much time (as we know it) passed between Gen 1:1 (“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” RSV) and Gen 1:2 (“The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.” RSV), so it does not conflict with Scripture to believe in the Big Bang Theory.

Second, when God created the plants and animals (and Adam and Eve), He created them fully capable of caring for themselves. If the plants and animals were created fully mature, then why is it difficult to imagine that God could create the material universe as “fully mature”? Again, this does not conflict with Scripture.

Hope this helps!
 
it is necessary right at the start of trying to understand or interpret scriptures that it is the inerrant word of God and secondly that "the literal and obvious must always be accepted first unless reason or necessity dictate that a symbolic or allegoric should be accepted.Now,in fact,reason and necessity dictate that the six days be accepted as six literal 24hr days,and not in an instant or six seconds,minutes,hours,weeks,months or years or six hundred,thousand,million or billion,for the seventh day is the sabbath day - should anyone still not understand,please say so and ask for further education -twinc
 
it is necessary right at the start of trying to understand or interpret scriptures that it is the inerrant word of God and secondly that "the literal and obvious must always be accepted first unless reason or necessity dictate that a symbolic or allegoric should be accepted.Now,in fact,reason and necessity dictate that the six days be accepted as six literal 24hr days,and not in an instant or six seconds,minutes,hours,weeks,months or years or six hundred,thousand,million or billion,for the seventh day is the sabbath day - should anyone still not understand,please say so and ask for further education -twinc
contd:- so then was it or is it impossible for God to walk with men - I do somehow think that Jesus Christ walked and talked with men in the OT as in the NT - Both in the garden of Eden and Gethsamane etc - btw not only could but God did iin fact create animals and plants fully mature at their creation as Adam and Eve were probably 30 on their first birthday and the chicken did in fact come before the egg and Adam did not have a belly button - twinc
 
What has the Catholic Church understood and taught since the beginning?
 
contd:- so then was it or is it impossible for God to walk with men - I do somehow think that Jesus Christ walked and talked with men in the OT as in the NT - Both in the garden of Eden and Gethsamane etc - btw not only could but God did iin fact create animals and plants fully mature at their creation as Adam and Eve were probably 30 on their first birthday and the chicken did in fact come before the egg and Adam did not have a belly button - twinc
btw not only are there human ventrilocuists but God spoke through Balaam.s ***[donkey] and the devil spoke through the serpent to Eve - so what.s impossible or new under the sun - twinc
 
rwillenborg,
It’s a touchy subject on this forum.
Dismissing young earth explanations as ultra-literalistic compulsion does not place one’s soul in the least bit of peril. You can still receive the sacraments. 👍

There are truths present to be sure, but they are theological and moral truths.
Once one graduates from strict literalism other horizons of meaning come into view.
The Catechism explains with great clarity what we need to be concerned about in the early chapters of Genesis. Belief in a 6-day creation event is absent from the Catechism.

Some people immediately take this approach as a blanket endorsement of evolutionary theory. It’s not. Some scientific hypothesizing might have merit. Some is bunk I’ sure. It’s yet to be seen. I’m not holding my breath on any of it.

I just try to go with what is reasonable.

Even if every verse in the Bible was proven to be borrowed from pagan myths and ‘brushed up’ a bit, this would not mute, in the least, the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through scripture. God reveals himself in spite of the faulty works and half-hearted efforts of sinful man. Our short comings present no barrier to his will.

But hey, as I’ve said before, if the belief that dinosaurs and Adam bumped elbows gets you to church each Sunday then hold on to it. And I sincerely mean that. Our Faith is a gift. And as Paul says the gifts are varied but issue from the same Spirit.

Hope that helped,

PeterK
 
There is a distinction between allegory and metaphors, which seems to be something that the OP does not seem to recognize, which is very common. Just because someone takes a literal position does not mean that they don’t recognize metaphors or symbolic language, such as 6 “days”, or “serpent.”

As for me, the “days” may not be 24 hour periods but they are literally some type of intervals in which God created. The serpent is not a literal snake but represents the Devil who is called a serpent in Revelation, but the serpent represents something literal, not some generalization.

No doubt that some of us are going to handle some of the metaphors more or less rigidly, but we do understand this account to have happened literally in space and time, and not just a representation of something unrelated to creation or a broad generalization or just a didactic story that has a moral message.

I highly recommend my commentary on Gen 1-3, not because of me, but because it is based upon Church teachings such as papal letters, Catechism, and the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. here is the link litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Commentary+on+Genesis+by+John+Litteral
 
Hi Rwillen__,

Be wary of extreme positions in this matter. Here is, in part, an authoritative declaration of the Pontifical Biblical Commission (1948) It is the famous letter to Cardinal Suhard :
Letter to Cardinal Suhard [on the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, and on the historical character of Gen 1-11]
(AAS 40 [1948] 45-8)


The Holy Father graciously entrusted to the Pontifical Biblical Commission the examination of two questions recently submitted to His Holiness concerning the sources of the Pentateuch and the historicity of the first eleven chapters of Genesis.

As the result of their deliberations His Holiness deigned to approve the following reply. on 16 January 1948.

The Pontifical Biblical Commission. desires to promote biblical studies by assuring to them the most complete liberty within the limits of the traditional teaching of the Church. This liberty has been proclaimed in explicit terms by the present Pope in his Encyclical Divino afflante Spiritu: "The Catholic exegete. ought not by any manner of means to debar himself from taking in hand, and that repeatedly, the difficult questions which have found no solution up to the present time. in an attempt to find a well-founded explanation in perfect harmony with the doctrine of the Church, in particular with that of biblical inerrancy, and at the same time capable of fully satisfying the certain conclusions of the secular sciences. (…)

As regards the composition of the Pentateuch, in the above-mentioned decree of June 27, 1906, the Biblical Commission recognized already that it could be affirmed that Moses “in order to compose his work made use of written documents or of oral traditions” and that post-Mosaic modifications and additions could also be admitted (EB 176-7). (…) However, even among non-Catholic exegetes very diverse opinions are held today concerning the character and the number of these documents, their names and dates. (…) Hence we invite Catholic scholars to study these problems with an open mind in the light of sane criticism and of the results of other sciences which have their part in these matters, and such study will without doubt establish the large share and the profound influence of Moses as author and as legislator.

The question of the literary forms of the first eleven chapters of Genesis is far more obscure and complex. These literary forms do not correspond to any of our classical categories and cannot be judged in the light of the Greco-Latin or modern literary types. It is therefore impossible to deny or to affirm their historicity as a whole without unduly applying to them norms of a literary type under which they cannot be classed. If it is agreed not to see in these chapters history in the classical and modern sense, it must be admitted also that known scientific facts do not allow a positive solution of all the problems which they present. The first duty in this matter incumbent on scientific exegesis consists in the careful study of all the problems literary, scientific, historical, cultural, and religious connected with these chapters; in the next place is required a** close examination of the literary methods of the ancient oriental peoples, their psychology, their manner of expressing themselves and even their notion of historical truth the requisite, in a word, is to assemble without preformed judgements all the material of the palaeontological and historical, epigraphical and literary sciences. It is only in this way that there is hope of attaining a clearer view of the true nature of certain narratives in the first chapters of Genesis. To declare a priori** that these narratives do not contain history in the modern sense of the word might easily be understood to mean that they do not contain history in any sense, whereas they relate in simple and figurative language, adapted to the understanding f mankind at a lower stage of development, the fundamental truths underlying the divine scheme of salvation, as well as a popular description of the origins of the human race and of the chosen people.
You will find the complete text of this and other declaration at ]catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/bible/pbc.htm
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. I don’t have time to read over them all now, I gotta fly, but I will when I get home. 🙂 I’m trying to understand the spectrum of beliefs when it comes to Genesis. Food for thought is all I’m looking for. It honestly makes no difference to me either way, I think creationists have valid and compelling reasons for their belief just as much as anyone else. 🤷 I’m really just trying to reflect alot more on Genesis, and this popped into my mind.

Thanks,
respectfully yours.
r
 
Y(what is so hard about believing in a tree with fruit?).
LOL! I think I didn’t phrase that quite right!! 😃
I’m glad you figured out what I was getting at anyway.🙂
Like I just said, I’ve got to run, but I will respond when I get back.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
 
it is necessary right at the start of trying to understand or interpret scriptures that it is the inerrant word of God and secondly that "the literal and obvious must always be accepted first unless reason or necessity dictate that a symbolic or allegoric should be accepted.Now,in fact,reason and necessity dictate that the six days be accepted as six literal 24hr days,and not in an instant or six seconds,minutes,hours,weeks,months or years or six hundred,thousand,million or billion,for the seventh day is the sabbath day - should anyone still not understand,please say so and ask for further education -twinc
What you say is totally untrue. The Catholic Church (as you should know if you really are a Catholic) does NOT teach that the 6 days are 6 literal 24 hour periods. Catholics are free to believe that or not. You are one who believes that which is your right but do not say that we must believe the same because that is a lie.
 
What you say is totally untrue. The Catholic Church (as you should know if you really are a Catholic) does NOT teach that the 6 days are 6 literal 24 hour periods. Catholics are free to believe that or not. You are one who believes that which is your right but do not say that we must believe the same because that is a lie.
further [obvious,reasonable,commonsense] instructions “remember the sabbath day” the 7th day of creation - lets try the sabbath two day,week,month,year,hundreds of years,thousands,millions and even if how long would a day in years be - obviously a day is a day including Sunday - btw many people believe some wacky things and they are allowed to - btw dont take my word or anyones else,s but see what the Church via Tradition and the Church Fathers has to say[to Catholics and others] - see www.CatholicOrigins.com re 6 Days and www.ScriptureCatholic.com about 6 Days - jimc
 
twinc,
There are all kinds of other ‘Catholic’ sites on the internet to investigate. However, a much clearer understanding will be acquired if one just checks in with the current living Magisterium via the Catechism or the writings of the current Pope.

Our little polemic concerning interpretation is just one of many, look into liturgical threads for more. Each side of each polemic has their ace-in-the-hole ‘Catholic’ web site with gig upon gig of ‘official’ support data to back up their claims.

If one isn’t sure where they stand on a matter it would be best to start with the Catechism. If the Catechism does not make a big deal about some topic then it probably is not a big deal. In other words, along with direct answers to specific questions it will also begin to form in the reader a mature perspective.

PeterK
 
twinc,
There are all kinds of other ‘Catholic’ sites on the internet to investigate. However, a much clearer understanding will be acquired if one just checks in with the current living Magisterium via the Catechism or the writings of the current Pope.

Our little polemic concerning interpretation is just one of many, look into liturgical threads for more. Each side of each polemic has their ace-in-the-hole ‘Catholic’ web site with gig upon gig of ‘official’ support data to back up their claims.

If one isn’t sure where they stand on a matter it would be best to start with the Catechism. If the Catechism does not make a big deal about some topic then it probably is not a big deal. In other words, along with direct answers to specific questions it will also begin to form in the reader a mature perspective.

PeterK
Good,so do just that if nothing else or also - see Paras 282 - 289 - twinc
 
Do you also believe that God literally walked with Adam and Eve in a literal garden of Eden here on earth? Do you also believe there was literally a serpent and a tree which bore fruit?
It seems whenever people debate this topic, they start AND end it with the creation story so I’ve never actually heard if ALL of this story is taken as literally true, or just the creation part.

And, if I may probe further…if you DO believe the literal 6 day creation AND the literal garden of Eden and serpent and all of that, could you please explain that position to me? If you DO believe the literal 6 day creation and NOT the literal garden of Eden and all its trappings, could you please explain the difference?

I’m not trying to call anybody out here, but I’m reading ‘Making Sense of the Scriptures’ by Mark Shea, and he talks about this very thing and it got me to wondering.

Thanks in advance for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut. 🙂
I don’t know if the 6 day creation story is literal, and I really don’t care - because I do believe it serves a purpose in some other way. It tells me that when God created the world, He had a plan to save it.

He finished creating the world on a Friday and rested on the Saturday.
He finished His work of redemption on the cross on a Friday, and was laid to rest on the Saturday.
 
icr.org/article/seven-years-starlight-time/
Here’s the physics behind a comprehension of a literal six day creation. “Seven Years of Starlight and Time” is a great read remembering “one day with the Lord is as a thousand years…”

The Woman’s serpent (she was named “Eve” only after the Sin of Adam) is literally “the shining one” and meshes with Jesus Christ’s admonition to beware of Satan appearing as an angel of light.

The Bible is consonant with high science. Me likey.
 
I don’t know if the 6 day creation story is literal, and I really don’t care - because I do believe it serves a purpose in some other way. It tells me that when God created the world, He had a plan to save it.

He finished creating the world on a Friday and rested on the Saturday.
He finished His work of redemption on the cross on a Friday, and was laid to rest on the Saturday.
we have a problem here,for is the saying then "in three days or within three days"and if HE and Jesus and the Apostles worked on a Sunday why are we forbidden - btw have a look at your calendar/s - does the week start on a Sunday or a Monday.If Sunday is a Monday and Monday is Tuesday,its not much good discussing anything with anyone who does not even know what day it is - twinc
 
This conversation gets dramatic when people people figuratively paint themselves into a corner with arguments about a 6 - (24-hour) days creation.

The Jewish Publication Society Commentary on the Torah - Genesis has a much broader take on the creation story in Genesis.

In literature of the same time frame as Genesis, a seven-day event was an idiom for discussing something that was important. So, from a literary standpoint, the seven-day creation event is simply described in terms that met a certain literary standard for describing something important. The number seven is prominent in the first creation account of Genesis, roughly verses 1:1 to 2:3a.

Seven or a multiple of seven is the number of words in each of the verses (recall that Hebrew has no punctuation, capital/lower case, indentation, footnotes etc. comparable to modern English. So, the number of words in each “verse” is a later interpretation. Nevertheless, God judges creation seven times and declares seven times that it is “good” or “very good.” There may be other sevens in there, too, I don’t remember.

But, projecting and overlaying an astronomical interpretation from modern times on the intentions of the ancient writer is playing with fire. It is jumping to conclusions. And, it ignores the other literary characteristics of the text.

It is as foolhardy as “going literalist” when somebody says “it is raining cats and dogs”, or " the fog is as thick as pea soup" etc.

I was surprised to learn by reading the JPS commentary that Genesis is written in 12 literary sections. Do you know where they are? What do you suppose the purpose of that was? Believe me, it’s there. Ignore it at your own intellectual peril.

The author Rabbi Nahum Sarna takes the perspective of commenting on Genesis as unitary writing, although it is accepted by many scholars that it is really a patchwork of texts. It’s one thing to fiddle with the patches of text, but one shouldn’t ignore the final form as the real Genesis.

(perhaps I need to say that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI both affirm that it is appropriate and necessary and prudent to examine the wealth of 2000 years of Jewish Bible commentary that exists. So, appealing to Jewish commentaries is not inappropriate in the least)
 
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