To those who deny the true presence

[Gabriel_of_12]

Well, Jesus didn’t even institute the Lord’s Supper yet. Also, you’re leaving out verse 64, which says, “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.” It’s pretty obvious that He isn’t talking about the Lord’s Supper.

Gabriel of 12;
When Jesus fed the 4000 and 5000 with just a few fishes and some loaves of bread. Forshadowed of what Jesus is doing today feeding humanity miraculously in Holy Communion from the breaking of bread which is his body and blood.

True Jesus has not instituted his Eucharist yet in John 6… but he begins to seperate the sheep from the goats before he begins his passion death and resurrection. Those unbelievers that walked away from Jesus true presence lacke faith in Jesus, and only sought him because he provided literal bread to feed the multitudes. When Jesus spoke about the True bread that gives eternal life in himself, these unbelievers left Jesus teachings because they did not believe and trusted in themselves not Jesus to do this. That is why they went to they’re former way of living.

As far as the spirit speech which follows the completion of the bread of life discourse from John 6 which Jesus speaks from within the synagogue in Capernaum.

Begins speaking about his Words of eternal life which will make the bread his body, and the wine his blood. The bread topic has ended already before he begins to speak about his Words that give eternal life in the Spirit where the flesh is of no avail.

In other words, it doesn’t matter if you see bread and wine with your flesh, know that Jesus is Truth when states “this is my body” “This is my blood” with his Words because it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profit nothing, but this food is journey for our souls to passover into eternal life just as Jesus promises to all those who receive him in his Eucharist.

Peace be with you

 

[StrawberryJam]

I understand your point now.

I guess the unknown here is the reason that these people were following him. I don’t think this is different from the situation of any temporary follower of a particular faith.

You are a member only to the extent that you follow the beliefs and practices of the organization.

Still does not answer my problem here. Jesus could have had all of those believers being in harmony, or most if he only would have patiently explained to those who were stunned by it.

They were rightfully stunned by it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I did make a bobo in not including something from the chapter. So let me continue John 6
56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
source drbo.org/chapter/50006.htm

Now not to cherry pick but if Christ was not talking about his literal body and blood why in verse 67 would many of the disciples leave?

Because they were shocked by being told that they would do Him to death ?:​

• Psa 14.4 Will evildoers never learn—
  those who devour my people as men eat bread
  and who do not call on the LORD ?
• Psa 27:2 When the wicked, [even] mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.
• Psa 53. 4 Will the evildoers never learn—
  those who devour my people as men eat bread
  and who do not call on God?
• Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
• Micah 3:3 Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.
• John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
• Galatians 5.13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
• Rev. 19.17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army…

For “to do to death” is what “to eat the flesh” ordinarily means. Christian Eucharistic practice would likely deepen this ordinary meaning, without destroying it. Why were they shocked ? Because at verse 6.15 they had wanted to make him King. What he tells them looks forward to His rejection by them. They are doing what Peter did - recognising Him as Messiah or King, but failing utterly to recognise what this dignity of His demands of Him: they & Peter both interpret Hids dognity in this-worldly, political, terms. Peter denied Him with lies and oaths and curses - they will demand His death. The Eucharist is one way in which He can be recognised - as at Emmaus He was known “in the breaking of the bread” (Luke 24); because of John’s interest in Baptism & Eucharist, and the importance in his gospel of the recognition and unrecognition of Jesus, the priorities in this gospel are different. And the Eucharist is one way of recognising Jesus, & not the only one, in this gospel.

Throughout chapter six, as throughout this Gospel, is found the theme of His Unrecognition by those who are not His, those who follow Him until the going gets tough. Hence the question at theend of the chapter, & Peter’s reply: not all of His disciplies will leave Him.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Those who did not understand this teaching, were left without a shepherd who looks for the lost sheep.
See what I mean?

It is confusing.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Still does not answer my problem here. Jesus could have had all of those believers being in harmony, or most if he only would have patiently explained to those who were stunned by it.

They were rightfully stunned by it.

Do you think it would have been different had he said:

“I am God incarnate. I will be brutally killed, then buried, then dead for three days, then I will rise again. I will ascend in to heaven after short stay here, THEN…, I will reappear in the flesh during the eucharistic feast as bread and wine.”

“So, are you with me?”

 

[StrawberryJam]

Do you think it would have been different had he said:

“I am God incarnate. I will be brutally killed, then buried, then dead for three days, then I will rise again. I will ascend in to heaven after short stay here, THEN…, I will reappear in the flesh during the eucharistic feast as bread and wine.”

“So, are you with me?”

He was called Rabbi, (teacher)

nice way to grade the class. They don’t understand, you let them flunk.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

He was called Rabbi, (teacher)

nice way to grade the class. They don’t understand, you let them flunk.

At the time, it was incomprehensible. He might just as well have said blessed are the cheesemakers!

There is no indication that these men didn’t later come to a fuller understanding of his message.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all,

How can one say it is figurative language or only a “spiritual presence”. Just wondering how one can ratonalize that it is not the literal presence

I once believed the Eucharist was “Real Pesence” as a young catholic.

what I did not know is the holy spirit lived in me each and every day of my life…

The bible says this…
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. 2Tim 1:13-14

I believe this is true of every single human being on the face of this earth.
The holy spirit lives in all of us…no exception…right from the day we are born

That being the case…

His real presence is right there with me, in me every day of my life. I can not get away from Him even if I try.

Yes the bible verses from John which were quoted in the OP gives the impression that we literally eat Jesus body.

this, I believe, is what can happen when you take a few verses out of context and say it is truth.

Question to ponder…read a book… any book…can you tell the story of the book by any one sentence or paragraph or chapter?

the answer in we can not

then, in due respect…why should the bible be any different?

There are verses in the bible which say communion is spiritual… and by the way, also states the “Rock” is Jesus

They all ate the same **spiritual food **and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the **spiritual rock **that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:3-4

interesting to say the least.

This is one of the reason why many non catholic christians disagree with catholics

I have a question…

if the verses from John 6 comfirmed the “Real Presence”, then why isn’t the other part of the verses believe to be truth?

look at all the times I bold printed the references to eternal life.

This is for those who deny the true literal presence of Christ how do you justify the following out of John 6

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

54 “Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood”… To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence,** life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving**, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. 58. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

These verses clearly state,

If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever

that is heaven my friends I am sure you will all agreen

I have stated after I make a sincere confession before the Lord, I know for sure I will go to heaven should I die right there and then at that point in time

one of the reasons…Romans 6:23 declares salvation is a God’s gift to us

What does one do when offered a Gift by a loved one?

I do not know about you but I say thank you and accept the gift.

problem is…
I have only come across a few catholics who said they were 100% sure that…

if they were to die at the altar immediately making a contrite, remorseful, repentent confession (no sins witheld from the priest) and saying prayers of penance…

they know they would go to heaven or at least be on the road to heaven through purgatory

So why do catholics believe in the real presence from John 6 but do not believe they are assured of eternal life as God promised?

thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Hi all,

So why do catholics believe in the real presence from John 6 but do not believe they are assured of eternal life as God promised?

thank you and God bless

mpjw

Because the real presence is biblical and supported by the traditions of the Church.

Eternal security is neither:

Corinthians 10:12 “Therefore let him who thinks he is standing,** beware**, that he does not fall”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If **we **deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “Th**ey were made free **from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ** if **we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant** by which they were sanctified,** and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 “If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever”.

 

[mpjw2]

Because the real presence is biblical and supported by the traditions of the Church.

Eternal security is neither:

Corinthians 10:12 “Therefore let him who thinks he is standing,** beware**, that he does not fall”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If **we **deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “Th**ey were made free **from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ** if **we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant** by which they were sanctified,** and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 “If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever”.

chestertonrules…

all good scripture but you missed my point .

I agree with you 100% that if I am standing today i may fall tomorrow.

That is not what I am talking about…

let me say it another way, you make a contrite confession, no sin witheld, you are sorry, you repent, absolution given, penance said, soul restored to grace after prayers said…there is no chance to fall or seek because tomorrow does not come…

why?? you ask

because you died right there at the altar…

After making a sincere confession,

Isn’t your soul in a state of grace???

if yes, then God would accept you into heaven, right?

thank you

God bless

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

chestertonrules…

all good scripture but you missed my point .

I agree with you 100% that if I am standing today i may fall tomorrow.

That is not what I am talking about…

let me say it another way, you make a contrite confession, no sin witheld, you are sorry, you repent, absolution given, penance said, soul restored to grace after prayers said…there is no chance to fall or seek because tomorrow does not come…

why?? you ask

because you died right there at the altar…

After making a sincere confession,

Isn’t your soul in a state of grace???

if yes, then God would accept you into heaven, right?

thank you

God bless

Yes, I agree.

However, that is the teaching of the Catholic Church, so I’m not sure what your original point was.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Because they were shocked by being told that they would do Him to death ?:​

• Psa 14.4 Will evildoers never learn—
  those who devour my people as men eat bread
  and who do not call on the LORD ?
• Psa 27:2 When the wicked, [even] mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.
• Psa 53. 4 Will the evildoers never learn—
  those who devour my people as men eat bread
  and who do not call on God?
• Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
• Micah 3:3 Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.

For “to do to death” is what “to eat the flesh” ordinarily means.

I believe the Hebrew text you displayed come from a Hebrew idium which as you stated means to kill or destroy another person. The Language Jesus uses does not express the Hebrew idium, but the literal translation of the action of gnawing and chewing what Jesus proposes to Eat by gnawing and chewing “HIS FLESH”, and to “drink his blood”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi all,

I once believed the Eucharist was “Real Pesence” as a young catholic.

what I did not know is the holy spirit lived in me each and every day of my life…

The bible says this…
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. 2Tim 1:13-14

I believe this is true of every single human being on the face of this earth.
The holy spirit lives in all of us…no exception…right from the day we are born

That being the case…

His real presence is right there with me, in me every day of my life. I can not get away from Him even if I try.

Gabriel of 12;

It appears you have been misinformed about the Biblical revelation Jesus gave his Catholic Church about the True Spirit.

For one Timothy was a disciple of St.Paul. Paul teaches in order to recieve the Holy Spirit you must be baptised. I am sure Timothy already understands this, when he addresses the already baptised faithful who have the Holy Spirit. This is the first deposit given to the believer. I never heard of a teaching of recieving the Holy Spirit at Birth unless you are greater than John the Baptist or the blessed Virgin Mary Mother of Jesus?

The book of Acts record the disciples of John the baptist never even heard of recieving a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only the baptism of John these were baptised, then the apostle administers Baptism to them as well as the sacrament of Confirmation at the same time.

You are correct in saying that you realized the Holy Spirit is with you every day of your life, probably because you may have been given a Catholic Baptism after birth and didnt realize it yet? What includes in the deposit of faith that Timothy expresses deals also with the breaking of the bread, teaching of the Apostles and prayers which describe the Mass (see Acts 2:42 please).

True the baptised have been given a mark on the forehead an indeluable signature of God that can never be erased from your soul. That is why you realize that God has made you his through your baptism, and feel you can never get away. And you wont, just as you continue to seek God in Truth, and not allow the pride of men (see Galatians 1:6-9) to hinder your God given faith for another gospel introduced over 1500 years after the resurrection.

I dont see a need to address your other topics of discussion that do not relate to the topic at hand. For the True presence supersedes all of these and those who deny the True Jesus Christ come in the flesh, made visible to all God’s children in every age through his Eucharist Jesus himself instituted not man.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Those who did not understand this teaching, were left without a shepherd who looks for the lost sheep.
See what I mean?

It is confusing.

Gabriel of 12;
Let me give it a go; Those who did not understand Jesus teaching including his 12 apostles. The disciples that left Jesus True presence because they must be freed from the world, these went back to their old way of life which only forshadowed what Jesus was doing.

These disciples who did not understand were of the flesh (old covenant) where God does not desire. Jesus introduces the “Spirit” here when it is the Spirit (New covenant in Jesus body and blood) that gives life whereby the flesh (old covenant) could not give eternal life because the Law of the Old Covenant convicts. When one is of the Spirit who partakes of his divinity (2Peter 1:4) (Eucharist) the Law cannot convict because these have been set free from the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ through the sacrament of baptism.

The Shepherd seeks the lost sheep who are not hindered by pride or sin which keeps them from the true presence of God, where nothing unclean can go before the presence of God.

It is not confusing when one recieves the gift of baptism. This is the death that removes all obstacles from God being present to you and those who are lost. For it is God who teaches us all.

 

[CalCatholic]

Yes the bible verses from John which were quoted in the OP gives the impression that we literally eat Jesus body.

this, I believe, is what can happen when you take a few verses out of context and say it is truth.

When you take those very descriptive verses from John Chap.6 in context with;

Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:14-20, 1 Cor. 11:23-29 (all establishing the institution of the Eucharist), and add a word of caution from Paul, which doesn’t sound figurative;

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and the blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Cor. 11:27-29)

The Early Church Fathers also commented on the Eucharist being the body and blood of Jesus Christ;

Ignatius of Antioch (35-105 A.D.) “I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life - which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God… And I desire the drink of God, namely his blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.”

“Take heed, then, to have only one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to the unity of his blood.”

"They [The Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ… Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death."

Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.)"We do not receive these as common bread and common drink. Rather, Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation. So, likewise, we have taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

Irenaeus (130-200 A.D.)"How can they [the Gnostics] be consistent with themselves [when they say] that the bread over which thanks has been given is the body of their Lord and that the cup is His blood - if they do not call Him the Son of the Creator?.. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption and does not partake of life?"

“For the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation from God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist - consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, So also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.”

[The wine and the bread] having received the Word of God, become the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ."

These teachings have been passed down through the Church for 2000 years and only were challanged after the reformation in the sixteenth century.

(A quotes from the Early Church Fathers taken from; ‘A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs’, David W. Bercot, Editor)

 

[mpjw2]

These teachings have been passed down through the Church for 2000 years and only were challanged after the reformation in the sixteenth century. )

yes I know and in due respect, there are a lot of christians who believe Christ’s one true church consists of all christians united in His one "body’ which is His church of believers in Him and not just the catholics.

God bless

mpjw

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

yes I know and in due respect, there are a lot of christians who believe Christ’s one true church consists of all christians united in His one "body’ which is His church of believers in Him and not just the catholics.

God bless

mpjw

Here’s how the Catholic Church describes the situation:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here’s how the Catholic Church describes the situation:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Beautifully said; what can make this unity of Christians occurr when non catholics stop protesting the Catholic Church from their pulpits, and stop attacking her 2000 year old teachings from Jesus and his apostles, in order to gain members in their communities.

If non catholics can stand on their own merits and own interpretations without attacking the Catholic Church from misrepresentation in order to justify their belief’s we can find unity upon God’s grace. The problem may be Jesus built his Church upon Rock, this Truth cannot be moved by every wind of doctrine that has come and gone throughtout the ages.

Truth cannot be moved outside the will of God, when Truth is revealed.

 

[Radical]

When you take those very descriptive verses from John Chap.6 in context with;…

It seems to me that you must be employing a double standard here. One of the descriptive words used by John is about Jesus’s requirement that his flesh must be chewed/gnawed/ground with one’s teeth, but no Catholic I know thinks that he actually grinds Jesus’s flesh with his teeth or chews that flesh to bits…So it seems that while you point to such a descriptive word, you don’t really believe that the action that the word describes is actually carried out.

Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:14-20, 1 Cor. 11:23-29 (all establishing the institution of the Eucharist), and add a word of caution from Paul, which doesn’t sound figurative;

“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and the blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. ****For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.” (1 Cor. 11:27-29)

You left off that bit the proceeds the “therefore” and it reads: For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Note the reason for the caution is that the Supper is a proclamation of Christ’s death (and not that the Supper involves a Real Presence or that it re-presents that sacrifice).

The Early Church Fathers also commented on the Eucharist being the body and blood of Jesus Christ;

Ignatius of Antioch (35-105 A.D.) “I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life - which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God… And I desire the drink of God, namely his blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.”

“Take heed, then, to have only one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to the unity of his blood.”

"They [The Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ… Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death."

There are three versions of Ignatius’s work. The long version contains spurious material. The middle version contains the bit you quoted and the short version does not. More scholars favour the middle version over the short version as properly reflecting the extant body of Ignatius’s work. Therefore, although the scholarly opinion says that it is more likely than not, it isn’t certain that what you quoted was actually penned by Ignatius. Further, the letter was addressing the Gnostics’ disbelief of Christ’s suffering and as such, in that context the quote can be easily seen as describing those that don’t believe that the bread represents Christ’s flesh, b/c after all they don’t believe that Christ actually came in the flesh .

These teachings have been passed down through the Church for 2000 years and only were challanged after the reformation in the sixteenth century.

This is just wrong. Here is what Marcarius wrote:

"[Christ] took the bread and the cup, each in a similar fashion, and said: ‘This is My Body and this is My Blood.’* Not a figure of His body nor a figure of His blood, as some persons of petrified mind are wont to rhapsodize,** but in truth the Body and the Blood of Christ, seeing that His body is from the earth, and the bread and wine are likewise from the earth."

-“Apocriticus” [3,23] ca. 400 A.D. *

Obviously some challenge was in place ca. 400 AD and of course, Tertullian was one of those that called the bread a figure of Christ’s body.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus chose Peter to be the rock upon which His church would be built. No symbolism here.

People should get a copy of ‘The Mass of the Early Christians’, by Mike Aquilina…the great heresy back in those days immediately after Pentecost was that the Body and Blood of Christ were not ‘in’ the bread and wine…that this was all purely symbolic.

We attest to objective truths, not symbolism that is a form of subjective relativism and no authority.