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Deacon_Ed_B
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Can anyone please tell me why you think the Catechism of the Catholic Church is "ultra conservative bla-bla etc. It is the most comprehensive statement as to our beliefs, in plain English that I have come across. Thats just my opinion. It is concise, to the point, and TRUE. For those who do not accept its teaching, would this be because there is a strain of cafeteria catholicism out there.
Deacon Ed B
Deacon Ed B
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mgrfin
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Deacon_Ed_B
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No you did not. Someone else did.
Just making an observation
Deacon Ed B
Just making an observation
Deacon Ed B
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mgrfin
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Really? Wrong again! Every dogma is not ‘de fide’.
And where is that written? And how about these dogmas? Are they ‘de fide’?:
The existence of God can be proven by means of causality
The Son proceeds from the intellect of the Father by way of generation.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the will or from the mutual love of the Father and the Son.
The Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation
The World is the work of Divine Wisdom
God was free to create this world.
God co-operates immediately in every act of his creatures.
The whole human race stems from one single human pair
Every human soul was immediately created out of nothing by God
Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all posterity.
When you finish those I have some more dogmas to look up in your manuals that are not ‘de fide’
And, no, I did not learn my dogmatic theology at a Methodist seminary.
peace
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Spirit_Filled
Guest
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore,** if anyone is in Christ**, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation** to those who are in Christ Jesus**, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that **if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. **10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that **whoever believes **in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Have these scriptures verses been excluded from your faith???
Salvation is not through any church and it never was.
It is through belief in Jesus Christ alone!
In Christ Jesus,
Chris
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Miles_Mariae
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If one truly believes in Christ and calls on His name, then one would also believe in the One Church that He established. Naturally, one would act on these beliefs, striving to receive the sacraments of the Church and professing the Catholic Faith. There is no error in Scripture - in this case, one would certainly be saved.
However, it is not enough to merely pay lip service. What does Our Lord tell us of false prophets?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21-23
You cannot ignore this passage. Belief and its consequent, salvation, implies full belief. To confess Jesus as Lord is to give assent to everything else that He taught, including the institution of His Church. Merely saying “I believe” while rejecting Christ’s Church does not suffice. It seems that your error stems from selectively reading Scripture, and imposing your own interpretation on the text.
If one truly believes in Christ and calls on His name, then one would also believe in the One Church that He established. Naturally, one would act on these beliefs, striving to receive the sacraments of the Church and professing the Catholic Faith. There is no error in Scripture - in this case, one would certainly be saved.
However, it is not enough to merely pay lip service. What does Our Lord tell us of false prophets?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21-23
You cannot ignore this passage. Belief and its consequent, salvation, implies full belief. To confess Jesus as Lord is to give assent to everything else that He taught, including the institution of His Church. Merely saying “I believe” while rejecting Christ’s Church does not suffice. It seems that your error stems from selectively reading Scripture, and imposing your own interpretation on the text.
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Deusdonat
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No, they have not been excluded, but are rather taken into context with the REST of scripture, which fundies conveniently ignore.
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say o Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord,’ did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23
Now, start reading the bible instead of some fundie play book.
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Spirit_Filled
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And exactly where is this verse found?
It is not found anywhere in scripture, but it is something that has
been taught as scripture. What is really very scary is the warning that we have with regard to such things:
Revelation 22:18
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Why do you want to believe anything that has been added?
Why are so many allowing themselves to be decieved?
In Christ,
Chris
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Miles_Mariae
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Spirit_Filled
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Ok, lets be really clear and specific here,
You said:
What exactly does this have to do with:]"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,…??
Does Peter say anywhere in 1st or 2nd Peter or anywhere else in scripture for that matter, that belonging to the institution of the church is also a condition of salvation?
If not, then why are you preaching such a lie?
In Christ,
Chris
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Spirit_Filled
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One more thing, The Bible was not compiled by the catholic church. The King James Bible was written by the Holy Spirit.
It was compiled by many scholars under King James of England in
about 1611.
It was compiled by many scholars under King James of England in
about 1611.
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mgrfin
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You know, when I see attacks on the Papacy, I see them as rants by a bunch of ultra conservative Catholics.
peace
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Yes.
As a result, I work as hard as I can to encourage my loved ones to follow the laws of God and the laws of the Church. I also pray constantly for them … that the Holy Spirit will give them very loud and persistent direction and guidance. AND that Jesus, the Judge, will be merciful to them (and to me) at their judgement (and at mine).
No.
Because I will have done everything imaginable to get them into Heaven.
Maybe just a smidgen.
And a smidgen because they will have turned their backs on Jesus.
And maybe, they will, in fact be there with me. [assuming that I am in Heaven. Which may be a big assumption.]
Because God is utterly just and utterly merciful. And I won’t know for sure until I get there if they will be there.
Keep in mind also, what Jesus said, that in Heaven there are no husbands and wives … meaning that our concept of Earthly relationships may not exist in Heaven. For example, we may get along well with our co-workers, but if we change jobs a few times, after a while, the memory of those co-workers tends to fade.
AND that our joy in Heaven may be so overwhelming that any sadness would be totally overshadowed by a joy that is so great that it cannot be imagined by people on Earth. We’re not talking about “Heavenly happiness”; we’re talking about an absolutely euphoric sense of joy that … if we were to compare it to our earthly bodies, would be a joy that would invest itself down to our cellular levels … every hair follicle, every finger nail, places where we cannot feel joy now in these Earthly times.
And this would not be any kind of joy of the like we might experience here on Earth. It would be billions and trillions more powerful than anything we could possibly feel here. And it would be invested in us by God Himself. Not something we could generate for ourselves.
Pray over it.
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SFD
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Miles_Mariae
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Your exact question was asking for scriptural evidence that Christ instituted a Church. I gave you the quote. You cannot then switch to a different question, and then accuse me of failing to answer it.
Now for your current question:
- Matthew 16:18 proves that Christ established His Church.
- This Church compiled the Bible, which was accepted as Scripture due to the authority of that Church. If you accept that the Bible is the Word of God, you implicitly agree that the Church has the authority to teach the Faith.
- The Church has taught that outside of it, there is no salvation.
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TMC
Guest
I think this post is entirely consistent with the Catholic view of salvation. Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus - there is no salvatoin outside the Church. All who are saved are part of Christ’s Church. Formal membership in this life is not required. Those that believe in their hearts and profess with their lips will be saved, and their mystical union with the universal Church will be revealed at another time. Those that know that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church must belong to it. Those that do not know can be saved without formal membership. This is what the catechism says and what the Council declared.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Everything else is full of surprises - wouldn’t it be surprising if there were not surprising people in Heaven ?
Jesus could have taken the exclusive line: instead, He spent a lot of time with Samaritans, tax-collectors, Gentiles, & similarly “accursed” people. He even became one of them - crucified men were “accursed” (as St. Paul points out).ISTM there are quite a few passages in both Testaments which make plain enough that God knows His own even though men may not. Elijah did not know of the seven thousand in Israel who had not “bowed the knee to Baal” - God did.
The Church does not know the names - let alone the total number - of those who are yet to be saved. Nor does it know the names of all those in Heaven; that why there is a feast of All Saints: to give liturgical recognition to the countless millions of the redeemed of whom the Church knows nothing, or whom it has forgotten.
the Apostles tried this:
- Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
- Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
- Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
- Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Luke has this: - Luk 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
- Luk 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
- Luk 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
- Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
- Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
It looks as though the Evangelists may have wished to tell that anecdote in different contexts. If OTOH it happened twice, that gives us the same attitude of Jesus to such exclusiveness, twice.
And we come to the Church through union with Christ - not the other way round; He is the way to it - how can it be sound theology for us to enter the Church, without faith in Christ, and only then come to Him through faith ? But that is not the order things happen; if it were, one could be without faith & yet be a Christian.
It’s possible to pay too high a price for a dogma - & if a dogma has the practical effect of contradicting or nullifying the Gospel, then something is wrong with it. If it is impossible that a dogma should do that, then any interpretation of it that makes it have such effects, is self-condemned as wrong.
Maybe there is a danger here of misunderstanding, from thinking of a thing - in this case, salvation - in different ways: Christ & the Church are both causes of salvation - but, in different ways. Maybe emphasising the various kinds of causation in salvation would clarify matters…
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