To those with conservative views on salvation

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What makes me really sad is not what they are missing on earth; it’s that they will lose their souls in the world to come.

Post 98 took care of that ​

Besides, to belong to Christ at all, is to be united with His Body - maybe in a less complete than is in fact possible on earth, but the union is a real one even so. One can be in union with the Church in a great number of ways & in very varying degrees - conscious & intentional communion with the empirical Church on earth, is one way - & only one: as the OP made clear, at least by implication.

In any case, unless Christ takes the initiative in taking hold of us to join us to Himself, nothing we may do will make a bit of difference. The Church is not a club, but something far more weird - it’s a body one joins. How many living beings have bodies like that ? Yet Christ does. It is so odd, that St. Paul even calls Christians “living stones” - which is even more bizarre (if possible).

So the Church is not something to take for granted, as though any dummy could stumble into it - that’s possible with a dead thing like a house or a ruin, but not with the Church of Christ. The Church is straight out of science fiction - so it’s possible to be connected in & with it in a way not possible to a club or other merely human society.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

What makes me really sad is not what they are missing on earth; it’s that they will lose their souls in the world to come.

Indeed.

“The sacrosanct Roman Church…firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, and almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”
The Council of Florence

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

Though perhaps for some, it remains to be seen whether post #98 speaks with more authority than these texts.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

A number of errors need to be corrected here:

1. Firstly, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” is not an “opinion” or a “sliding scale” teaching about which some Catholics can hold “conservative” views and others “liberal” ones.

The FACT is that outside the Catholic Church (which is the only Church) there is no salvation. None. No qualifications, no hemming and hawing, no relativist heresies.

This is a dogmatic, infallible teaching of the Church found in Sacred Scripture, the teachings, both ex cathedra and universal ordinary of the popes, councils of the Church, catechisms, and anywhere else you would like to look.

1. It is FALSE to say that one “need not be” a formal Catholic to be saved.

As the above link points out, baptism is necessary, absolutely necessary, for salvation (Cf. Jn 3:5). The above link also notes that “necessity” here does NOT mean “It’s probably a good idea to be baptized, but Our Lord is merciful and will save some unbaptized people anyway.” No. Baptism is necessary for salvation. That is the infallible teaching of Our Lord and of His Church.

1. It is FALSE to state that “one’s best bet” to be saved is in the Church, but that salvation can somehow happen elsewhere.
2. The teaching of the Church, to repeat, is infallible:

In short, the reprobate, as St. Leonard of Port Maurice reminds us, has chosen his own eternal separation from God. Mortal sin, to be mortal, is deliberate. A mortal sin is a heinous offense against God because it is a deliberate choice to offend Infinite Goodness.

As Pope Leo XII noted:

Outside of the Church there is no salvation. Period, fullstop.

As the above link points out, baptism is necessary, absolutely necessary, for salvation (Cf. Jn 3:5). The above link also notes that “necessity” here does NOT mean “It’s probably a good idea to be baptized, but Our Lord is merciful and will save some unbaptized people anyway.” No. Baptism is necessary for salvation. That is the infallible teaching of Our Lord and of His Church.

The thing is, you cant have it both ways. You cant keep changing your tune every time it suits your need to make your doctrine fit.

So, baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation?
Then how is it that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was told
that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise, did they take him down and baptise him when he was dead?

Now, I know that there will just have to be an exception here, right??

Thats the trouble with all of the man-made doctrines that come from the papacy. They are changed when they need to be changed. The word of God says that Jesus is the same yesterday,
today and forever. You cant just

The FACT is that outside the Catholic Church (which is the only Church) there is no salvation. None. No qualifications, no hemming and hawing, no relativist heresies.

This is a dogmatic, infallible teaching of the Church found in Sacred Scripture, the teachings, both ex cathedra and universal ordinary of the popes, councils of the Church, catechisms, and anywhere else you would like to look.

So, does this mean that the pope and the catholic church supercede the Holy Spirit inspired word of God?

The scripture tells us to let a bishop be the husband of one wife.

The catholic church says: “lets change that”

The scripture tells us that we should make for ouselves no graven
image.

The catholic church says: lets change that as well and have as many statues of peter and mary and anyone else that we want wherever we want them.

The scripture says to call no man father.

The catholic church says: we should ignore that and do what we want.

The list of sins against the Living God by the hand of the catholic church and the papacy is very very long.

The catholic church says that you must “do” many things in order to have salvation, sacraments, belonging to the catholic church,
and other good works.

The scripture says in the book of Ephesians:
2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

There are so many lies. You can quote all of the councils of popes and bishops that you like, but the truth will always be the truth. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone and it is a gift of God.

The catholic church is a prophetic fulfillment and have become to many, what the pharisees and saducees were to those that were in the time of Christ.

I plead with you if you are catholic to hear my words, In Jesus Christ’s name, turn now and ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

Here is a verse that is very important if you are catholic.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

In Christ,
Chris

 

[palmas85]

The thing is, you cant have it both ways. You cant keep changing your tune every time it suits your need to make your doctrine fit.

So, baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation?
Then how is it that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was told
that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise, did they take him down and baptise him when he was dead?

Now, I know that there will just have to be an exception here, right??

Thats the trouble with all of the man-made doctrines that come from the papacy. They are changed when they need to be changed. The word of God says that Jesus is the same yesterday,
today and forever. You cant just

So, does this mean that the pope and the catholic church supercede the Holy Spirit inspired word of God?

The scripture tells us to let a bishop be the husband of one wife.

The catholic church says: “lets change that”

The scripture tells us that we should make for ouselves no graven
image.

The catholic church says: lets change that as well and have as many statues of peter and mary and anyone else that we want wherever we want them.

The scripture says to call no man father.

The catholic church says: we should ignore that and do what we want.

The list of sins against the Living God by the hand of the catholic church and the papacy is very very long.

The catholic church says that you must “do” many things in order to have salvation, sacraments, belonging to the catholic church,
and other good works.

The scripture says in the book of Ephesians:
2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

There are so many lies. You can quote all of the councils of popes and bishops that you like, but the truth will always be the truth. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone and it is a gift of God.

The catholic church is a prophetic fulfillment and have become to many, what the pharisees and saducees were to those that were in the time of Christ.

I plead with you if you are catholic to hear my words, In Jesus Christ’s name, turn now and ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

Here is a verse that is very important if you are catholic.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

In Christ,
Chris

Papacy? You’ve been reading Sister Charlotte haven’t you?

 

[Kolbe300]

Hi Chris,
I hope you are well. I can’t answer all of your questions, since it’s late. But I’d be happy to in the future. I’ll try to address of few of them.

Thats the trouble with all of the man-made doctrines that come from the papacy. They are changed when they need to be changed. The word of God says that Jesus is the same yesterday,
today and forever. You cant just.

Can you point me to a doctrine on faith and morals where the position has been changed?

The scripture tells us to let a bishop be the husband of one wife.

The catholic church says: “lets change that”

Where does the Church say “let’s change that”? Did you know that there are some priests in the Church who ARE married? What do you think Paul is saying when he says, “Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am (single), but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. Now, to the unmarried and widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry.” 1 Cor 7:7-8

The Church ASKS priests to be unmarried. A priest CHOOSES to do that. As Jesus says in Matthew 19, some are eunuchs “for the sake of the Kingdom.” Isn’t that exactly what a priest does?

The scripture tells us that we should make for ouselves no graven
image.

Is there a difference between a work of art and a graven image?

The scripture says to call no man father.

Chris, are you aware of how many instances there are in your Bible when a spiritual leader is called “father”? James does it, Paul does it (numerous times), Stephen does it. Were they wrong in doing so? Or do you think maybe Jesus was referring to God the FATHER?

I know you mean well and I am glad to see someone evangelizing with zeal. That is a good thing! I have to get to bed but I have a couple questions for you:

In Matthew Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and soul. Then in John He says, "“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”(John 14:21) Doesn’t Jesus tell us here that without keeping His commandments and following His path we do not love Him? Do you believe that you must love Jesus to be saved?

In Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus says, “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” What happens if you aren’t a forgiving Christian? Can you explain to me how one can be saved if they aren’t forgiven?

I absolutely agree with you that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. The important word there is THROUGH faith. Faith is an action. Jesus has handed us a perfect, complete Gift. What he requires is that we pick up our cross and follow Him. It’s something Catholics believe we MUST do. It isn’t an option, something the Bible makes abundantly clear.

I hope you have a wonderful week! I will be praying for you and ask that you pray for me as well. Peace.

 

[nkbeth]

Anonymous2:

You said (in post #5)

baptism is necessary, absolutely necessary, for salvation (Cf. Jn 3:5).

But in your 5th point you quote Blessed Pope Pius IX:

[It is a grave error to] believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. **

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments

**

Are you claiming (in post #5) that if you don’t receive the Sacrament of Baptism it means that you will die in mortal sin and go to the fires of hell? That is how I’m reading your post - is that what you really MEAN?
Am I misinterpreting you, or do you think that Blessed Pope Pius IX is supporting your claim?

That is not a reasonable interpretation of Pope Pius IX’s words!

Pope Pius IX first says:

[It is im]possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity

You are RIGHT that this is saying “No Salvation outside the Church” - in the sense the Church means it. But the Church doesn’t mean it the way you do! Pope Pius IX clarifies this in the remainder of the quote above.

He says:
**

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

**

He’s talking about non-Catholics (the ones struggling with invincible ignorance) who REMAIN non-Catholics (unbaptized) while sincerely obeying God’s natural law, and READY TO OBEY GOD (as soon as they understand and can do what He asks), and live honest lives. God (who alone saves us!) can bring them (still not baptized Catholics) to eternal life by His Sanctifying Grace alone.

THE POINT HERE is that since God “knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all” he knows those who are not just leading a good life, but one that is most certainly not “living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity”. Their hearts and their minds are ready for HIS GRACE, and He gives it. God has won those in Sanctifying grace at death, and they are saved.

In mortal sin we lose God’s sanctifying grace, become spiritually dead and unable to be saved - unless we repent. By Baptism we lose Original Sin and obtain God’s grace. We also enter the Catholic Church as a baptized member. But what is the Church for (its final purpose for each member)? It provides God’s means for preserving, restoring and growing in Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace - THAT is absolutely necessary for salvation, in every sense.

Sanctifying Grace and Salvation are always from God - but He works through His Church and its Sacraments. Christ is the Head of the Church, and He is GOD - He is not BOUND to His own Sacraments! Christ as the Head can give grace directly (without the Sacraments), but it still comes from the Church.

The Sacrament of Baptism is NECESSARY for **us ** (we are commanded to use them). It is NECESSARY to water a plant, or it will die. But GOD doesn’t need water, either to bring a plant to life, or to give us His Sanctifying Grace. Pope Pius IX explained very well what was needed to receive “Baptism of Desire”. BUt we can not “choose” it (today I’ll be baptized by desire) or even know it is there - in ourselves or in others.

If Christ (the Head of His Church) baptizes someone for their implicit desire to join the Church, I think that in some way (only Christ knows) they are INSIDE THE CHURCH. ONLY GOD knows who they are. They are not actual members, and they need to be (by Christ’s command, and all the Church provides). But if they die in the state of His grace, I think God will accept them as “members of Christ”.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Your exact question was asking for scriptural evidence that Christ instituted a Church. I gave you the quote. You cannot then switch to a different question, and then accuse me of failing to answer it.

Now for your current question:

1. Matthew 16:18 proves that Christ established His Church.
2. This Church compiled the Bible, which was accepted as Scripture due to the authority of that Church. If you accept that the Bible is the Word of God, you implicitly agree that the Church has the authority to teach the Faith.
3. The Church has taught that outside of it, there is no salvation.

Your scriptural quotations have been shown to be out of context and refuted by Matthew 7:21-23. You asked for proof that Christ instituted His Church, and I gave it to you. You changed your question into having me prove that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I did so. You have not had enough?

Ok, let me try asking this again.

You keep saying:

1. The Church has taught that outside of it, there is no salvation.

You are correct that the church has taught this, but where is it in scripture???

Where in the Bible does it say that belonging to the institution of the catholic church is a condition of salvation?

Continuing to quote Matthew 16 does not at all answer this question!

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Where in this verse are we told that salvation will be found here??

You are really twisitng the words to mean something that they just do not say. These words have nothing at all to do with
salvation through the Blood of Christ alone!

You also did not answer my question regarding the thief on the cross that was not baptised and yet went to be in paradise with Christ. (So much for baptism being another condition of salvation)

In Christ alone,
Chris

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Your exact question was asking for scriptural evidence that Christ instituted a Church. I gave you the quote. You cannot then switch to a different question, and then accuse me of failing to answer it.

Now for your current question:

1. Matthew 16:18 proves that Christ established His Church.
2. This Church compiled the Bible, which was accepted as Scripture due to the authority of that Church. If you accept that the Bible is the Word of God, you implicitly agree that the Church has the authority to teach the Faith.
3. The Church has taught that outside of it, there is no salvation.

Your scriptural quotations have been shown to be out of context and refuted by Matthew 7:21-23. You asked for proof that Christ instituted His Church, and I gave it to you. You changed your question into having me prove that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I did so. You have not had enough?

Your answers are really lame

 

[Miles_Mariae]

You also did not answer my question regarding the thief on the cross that was not baptised and yet went to be in paradise with Christ. (So much for baptism being another condition of salvation)

Baptism of desire.

Continue trolling.

 

[GerardP]

Baptism of desire.

Continue trolling.

This is not true. Baptism was not mandatory. St. Dismus was saved under the Old Covenant.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

This is not true. Baptism was not mandatory. St. Dismus was saved under the Old Covenant.

I stand humbly corrected. I think someone might have even told me that, and I forgot, so my fault entirely.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Hi Chris,
I hope you are well. I can’t answer all of your questions, since it’s late. But I’d be happy to in the future. I’ll try to address of few of them.

Can you point me to a doctrine on faith and morals where the position has been changed?

Where does the Church say “let’s change that”? Did you know that there are some priests in the Church who ARE married? What do you think Paul is saying when he says, “Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am (single), but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. Now, to the unmarried and widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry.” 1 Cor 7:7-8

The Church ASKS priests to be unmarried. A priest CHOOSES to do that. As Jesus says in Matthew 19, some are eunuchs “for the sake of the Kingdom.” Isn’t that exactly what a priest does?

Is there a difference between a work of art and a graven image?

Chris, are you aware of how many instances there are in your Bible when a spiritual leader is called “father”? James does it, Paul does it (numerous times), Stephen does it. Were they wrong in doing so? Or do you think maybe Jesus was referring to God the FATHER?

I know you mean well and I am glad to see someone evangelizing with zeal. That is a good thing! I have to get to bed but I have a couple questions for you:

In Matthew Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and soul. Then in John He says, "“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”(John 14:21) Doesn’t Jesus tell us here that without keeping His commandments and following His path we do not love Him? Do you believe that you must love Jesus to be saved?

In Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus says, “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” What happens if you aren’t a forgiving Christian? Can you explain to me how one can be saved if they aren’t forgiven?

I absolutely agree with you that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. The important word there is THROUGH faith. Faith is an action. Jesus has handed us a perfect, complete Gift. What he requires is that we pick up our cross and follow Him. It’s something Catholics believe we MUST do. It isn’t an option, something the Bible makes abundantly clear.

I hope you have a wonderful week! I will be praying for you and ask that you pray for me as well. Peace.

Is there a difference between a work of art and a graven image?

Well, how about an image that people bow before in prayer, like the statue of ST Peter in Rome. Or how about millions of people that go into their church and bow in prayer before statues of mary.

Or how about the statues of mary that are literally kissed during the may festival all over the catholic world…

C’mon, are we really all going to rpretend that all of these things arent happening???

They are either alright in the eyes of the Lord, or they are blatant
worship of graven images!!!

In Christ,
Chris

 

[Miles_Mariae]

You believe that kissing is an act of adoration? Or that bowing necessarily connotes worship?

Your arguments practically debunk themselves.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

You believe that kissing is an act of adoration? Or that bowing necessarily connotes worship?

Your arguments practically debunk themselves.

Just listen to yourself!!!

You are like the naked king that has been told that he has a beautiful new outfit… And he just simply closes his eyes and says,
yes, I do have a new outfit of clothing and it is quite beautiful!

You want to exchange the truth of God for a lie and you are forcing what you want to fit what you want.

Idol worship by any other name is still idol worship.

A statue is a statue and bowing before one or kissing one will never be anything else but what it is…
IDOLATRY!!!

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Bowing is not worship, and kissing is not worship. Your argument has flatlined, and angry rhetoric will not resuscitate it.

Edit:
You may also want to cut down on the obnoxious cap-locking. It certainly doesn’t make you look any less ridiculous.

 

[jmcrae]

One more thing, The Bible was not compiled by the catholic church. The King James Bible was written by the Holy Spirit.

It was compiled by many scholars under King James of England in
about 1611.

The King James Bible is a translation of the Bible into English. It is one of the more famous ones because it became the official translation of the Anglican Church, but it is neither more nor less inspired than any other translation - the Holy Spirit inspired the original, of course, but translations are just translations.

The original Bible came to be when the books that comprise it were gathered together into one list (or “canon”) in the late 300s AD by the Councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage, which were local Councils.

The canon of the New Testament was then infallibly promulgated to the whole world by Pope St. Innocent I. St. Jerome had previously been commanded by Pope Damasus to translate both the Old and New Testaments into the common language, and have it distributed to all of the churches all over the world - once Pope Innocent gave him the final list of the New Testament, he was able to complete this work.

How the Catholic Bishops of the Councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage figured out which books to include in the Bible was by looking at the Oral Tradition of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. This is also the same place that we get all of our other doctrines and moral teachings from, as well.

 

[fix]

One more thing, The Bible was not compiled by the catholic church. The King James Bible was written by the Holy Spirit.

It was compiled by many scholars under King James of England in
about 1611.

What did Christians do before 1611?

 

[jmcrae]

I think this post is entirely consistent with the Catholic view of salvation. Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus - there is no salvation outside the Church. All who are saved are part of Christ’s Church. Formal membership in this life is not required.

… for those who have never heard of it in this lifetime.

We leave in the hands of God those who know about it, and outright reject it.

Those that believe in their hearts and profess with their lips will be saved, and their mystical union with the universal Church will be revealed at another time. Those that know that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church must belong to it. Those that do not know can be saved without formal membership. This is what the catechism says and what the Council declared.

To be “in Christ” is to be in His Body, the Church. (I Corinthians 12)

Those who are not formally or visibly part of His Body, the Church, have to ask themselves whether they are really in Christ, or whether they are just paying lip service.

 

[Kolbe300]

C’mon, are we really all going to rpretend that all of these things arent happening???

Who said anything about pretending that people don’t bow before statues or kiss statues? Chris, for something to be an “idol”, significance has to be placed onto the physical object itself! Ever seen someone kiss the picture of a family member? Has that picture become an idol or is that person showing affection for the person IN the picture? A statue is nothing more than a piece of artwork. The statue itself is no different than any other rock, other than the fact that it may look like someone. One doesn’t pray TO a statue. A statue is a reminder of someone we admire. A statue is just like a photograph.

They are either alright in the eyes of the Lord, or they are blatant worship of graven images!!!

Very true. And if someone is worshipping the physical statue, there is a real problem. Even the Catholic Church says we can’t do that.

Now, any chance you can answer the two questions I posed to you in my previous post?

Peace!

 

[Spirit_Filled]

What you are doing by saying that there are all of these conditions of salvation is that you are Cheapening the Gospel!

You are cheapening the Blood of Jesus Christ that He willingly spilled on the Cross for your salvation!

By saying that His Blood is not sufficient, but that we need some other thing also in order to have salvation.

You are saying that we also need to add to Christs Blood, belonging to the catholic church, being baptised, doing good works, etc…

His blood was just not good enough, and believing in the Son of God alone will just not do. we must also add things to it to merit our salvation.

Hear what Paul said to the Galatians:

3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Do you see this??
Paul is also telling them the very same thing that I am telling you,
You are being bewitched into believing that your salvation is somehow an act of your works!!
This is a false Gospel and has taken so many to hell!

Please stop trying to look for ways to prove yourself right in your own eyes and repent of these things.
I was raised catholic and it never felt real and always seemed empty and ritualistic. I asked God to open my eyes and let me see. He healed me and now I know what His truth really is and I know His Son and I know that He knows me.

In Christ,
Chris