To those with conservative views on salvation

[Kolbe300]

What you are doing by saying that there are all of these conditions of salvation is that you are Cheapening the Gospel!

You are cheapening the Blood of Jesus Christ that He willingly spilled on the Cross for your salvation!

By saying that His Blood is not sufficient, but that we need some other thing also in order to have salvation.

There aren’t enough good works on the planet that could “earn” our way to salvation. You, like so many others, are looking at what the Church teaches from the wrong direction. When God hands a person the gift of faith and salvation there are two choices we have. We can open that gift, walk with the gift, and follow Christ’s path OR we can take that gift, throw it away, and walk in a life of sinfulness. You cannot earn salvation, what you can do is throw it away. There is a HUGE difference there.

How do you reconcile what you believe with Christ’s response in Matthew to a man who asks the very question we are asking. He asks Christ how he can gain eternal life. What does Jesus say? He says, “If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments.” Mt 19:17

What does that mean to you? Is keeping the commandments optional?

Peace!

 

[jmcrae]

By saying that His Blood is not sufficient, but that we need some other thing also in order to have salvation.

Where has anyone here ever made such a claim?

You are saying that we also need to add to Christs Blood, belonging to the catholic church, being baptised, doing good works, etc…

Belonging to the Church that He founded, and following its precepts (he who hears you hears Me - Luke 10:16) is how we enter into Christ’s death and have His blood applied to our souls for the washing of regeneration to become saved from our sins.

We cannot do this merely by means of wishful thinking. We have to do so through the means that Christ provided for us, in His Church. (This is what it means, to “obey.”)

 

[SD_Catholic]

Spirit Filled

Do you see this??
Paul is also telling them the very same thing that I am telling you,
You are being bewitched into believing that your salvation is somehow an act of your works!!
This is a false Gospel and has taken so many to hell!

How do you know who is in hell? I see in the Bible where many were sent to hell for not obeying God’s commandments even though they believed in him. If you know the Bible as good as you appear to this should be very clear to you. “Believe and be in” is not a good quote to live by… doesn’t the devil believe in Jesus? I’m sure you realize it’s not that simple. There are so many places in Scripture where people are given rules to follow in order to obtain salvation… yes believing that Christ is our savior is a very important one, but it’s not the** only** one.

SD

 

[Spirit_Filled]

How do you know who is in hell? I see in the Bible where many were sent to hell for not obeying God’s commandments even though they believed in him. If you know the Bible as good as you appear to this should be very clear to you. “Believe and be in” is not a good quote to live by… doesn’t the devil believe in Jesus? I’m sure you realize it’s not that simple. There are so many places in Scripture where people are given rules to follow in order to obtain salvation… yes believing that Christ is our savior is a very important one, but it’s not the** only** one.

SD

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

A gift is something that you don’t give something for.
It is free.

However, works are a fruit, or something that is produced because of the gift of salvation and we are not justified by them as
you are saying.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that **a man is not justified by the works of the law **but **by faith **in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

In Christ,
Chris

.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

There aren’t enough good works on the planet that could “earn” our way to salvation. You, like so many others, are looking at what the Church teaches from the wrong direction. When God hands a person the gift of faith and salvation there are two choices we have. We can open that gift, walk with the gift, and follow Christ’s path OR we can take that gift, throw it away, and walk in a life of sinfulness. You cannot earn salvation, what you can do is throw it away. There is a HUGE difference there.

How do you reconcile what you believe with Christ’s response in Matthew to a man who asks the very question we are asking. He asks Christ how he can gain eternal life. What does Jesus say? He says, “If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments.” Mt 19:17

What does that mean to you? Is keeping the commandments optional?

Peace!

You missed the mist important part of what Jesus was teaching that man.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
This is theactual Greek meaning of this word “follow”
From a (as a particle of union) and keleuthos (a road); properly, to be in the same way with, i.e. To accompany (specially, as a disciple) – follow, reach.

And in keeping with the rest of Jesus teaching, He is telling that man and us, to follow Him by doing the same things that He does.
Where did He go?
He went to the Cross.
And He tells us:Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

We must die to self and to the mere teachings of men.

 

[jmcrae]

You missed the mist important part of what Jesus was teaching that man.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
This is theactual Greek meaning of this word “follow”
From a (as a particle of union) and keleuthos (a road); properly, to be in the same way with, i.e. To accompany (specially, as a disciple) – follow, reach.

This means that we have to be in the same Church as Jesus. Not a different man-made one that only came into existence since the time of the Protestant Revolt.

And in keeping with the rest of Jesus teaching, He is telling that man and us, to follow Him by doing the same things that He does.
Where did He go?
He went to the Cross.
And He tells us:Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

We must die to self and to the mere teachings of men.

Absolutely. That’s why we have to be in His Church and no other.

 

[Kolbe300]

And in keeping with the rest of Jesus teaching, He is telling that man and us, to follow Him by doing the same things that He does.
Where did He go?
He went to the Cross.
And He tells us:Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

**We must die to self **and to the mere teachings of men.

Everything you said there is great! But I have to ask, you say we must die to self. You quote Jesus saying he who does not take his cross and follow after Him is not worthy of Him. Do you believe that? After you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, do you have to die to self? Do you have to follow Jesus to be worthy of Him (like He says)? What cross does one bear if believing in Jesus is their one-way ticket to heaven? If your salvation is guaranteed because you believe in Jesus, can’t you walk any path you want, including a very sinful one? If your salvation is guaranteed then you DON’T have to follow after Him, as He said. You say that Jesus is telling us to follow Him. My question should be simple for you to answer: Do you have to follow Him? And if not, why? (and where does Jesus tell us that the walk is optional?)

Also, you didn’t really answer the original question: Is keeping the commandments optional?

I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Have a great day!

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin,

Thanks for filling us in…we were wondering what you thought about that.

SFD

You are certainly most welcome.

We already know where you stand - way over to the right!

peace

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Everything you said there is great! But I have to ask, you say we must die to self. You quote Jesus saying he who does not take his cross and follow after Him is not worthy of Him. Do you believe that? After you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, do you have to die to self? Do you have to follow Jesus to be worthy of Him (like He says)? What cross does one bear if believing in Jesus is their one-way ticket to heaven? If your salvation is guaranteed because you believe in Jesus, can’t you walk any path you want, including a very sinful one? If your salvation is guaranteed then you DON’T have to follow after Him, as He said. You say that Jesus is telling us to follow Him. My question should be simple for you to answer: Do you have to follow Him? And if not, why? (and where does Jesus tell us that the walk is optional?)

Also, you didn’t really answer the original question: Is keeping the commandments optional?

I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Have a great day!

Im suspecting that we are going around the same tree and are about to bump into each other.

What you are implying that i am saying is not what I am saying. but what I am saying (which is what I think many have backward)
is that Salvation is not a product of my obedience, my obedience is a product of my salvation.

Our being obedient to God does not add to or guarantee the security of our salvation, but obedience is a fruit of the Spirit:
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

This abiding in the vine is our faith in Christ.

If I could be good enough to be saved, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed for me?

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

**Mark 9:38-41: John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.
Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward. **

This passage is the key to understanding what the Church means when She teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church. First of all, this doctrine has to be true, as it has been defined dogmatically by several Popes and Councils. However, as Bl. Pius IX stated so eloquently, it is difficult to fathom a God who would punish people for sincerely trying to do His Will, following the eternal natural law. These two statements, one seemingly restrictive and one seemingly permissive, are reconciled by this statement of Christ: “Whoever is not against us is for us.”

In other words, those Orthodox, Protestants, and even non-Christians who sincerely do not know that the Catholic Church holds the One True Faith, but respect the Church and do not impede Her from carrying out Her mission, are not outside of the Church. Rather, they are joined to Her by what Ven. Pius XII called a “mystical communion.”

The best example I can think of is the Rev. Dr. Billy Graham, a Protestant evangelist. Many Evangelical Christians express disdain for the Church and try to convince Catholics to be “born again.” But Dr. Graham has rejected this viewpoint, demonstrating publicly (and thereby subjecting himself to great criticism from fellow Protestants) his respect for Catholics and for the Church. When Pope John Paul II died, Dr. Graham called him one of the greatest men of the 20th century. Clearly, then, he is the kind of man of whom Christ speaks, who is with us by the sole virtue of not being against us.

Now, this is not to say that we shouldn’t evangelize. But we should do it not out of the conviction that those to whom we evangelize are certainly damned, but rather because Christ Himself commanded that we spread the True Faith. Like the proverbial light under a bushel, Truth cannot be hidden; by its very nature, it must be joyfully shouted from the rooftops. As for those who hear the Truth and do not accept it, we can only remember that God alone judges the hearts of men, that God alone knows whether they acted in good faith, and that God is merciful beyond our wildest comprehension.

So yes, it is true, and we should not be afraid to say it: outside of the Church there is no salvation. But it is important that we know what this truly means.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

A gift is something that you don’t give something for.
It is free.

However, works are a fruit, or something that is produced because of the gift of salvation and we are not justified by them as
you are saying.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that **a man is not justified by the works of the law **but **by faith **in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

In Christ,
Chris

.

So how would you explain James 2:14-24 because what you say seems to be different… Please read it again and tell me how you interpret it. It doesn’t say that after you’re saved you’ll do good works or that first you’ll be judged worthy and then you’ll commence to doing fruitful works. How can anyone read this and still except that they can be saved by “faith alone”

SD

 

[Kolbe300]

Im suspecting that we are going around the same tree and are about to bump into each other.

I think you are right.

What you are implying that i am saying is not what I am saying. but what I am saying (which is what I think many have backward) is that Salvation is not a product of my obedience, my obedience is a product of my salvation.

I absolutely agree with you with regards to salvation not being a product of your obedience. Salvation is a product of Christ’s sacrifice and nothing else. However, obedience is not a product of salvation, it is a product of faith. The product of salvation is the reward of eternal life in heaven. In Romans 1:5, Paul says, "Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles.” The apostles sought not faith alone, but the obedience of faith. If obedience were an automatic product of being believing (being “saved”) there would be no need for Paul to “bring about” the obedience of faith. There would only be a need to “bring about” faith, since obedience would be the product. Do you see what I’m saying?

I, like Paul, will hope for salvation and strive to be obedient in my faith. Paul says in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Faith is an action! It is not a moment in time and obedience is not an automatic product of faith. If obedience is an automatic product of being saved, how do we explain the “saved” person living a life of sin. How is it possible for people to “fall from grace” as Paul says?

Our being obedient to God does not add to or guarantee the security of our salvation, but obedience is a fruit of the Spirit:
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Amen!! Being obedient does not add to salvation, how could it? And I will ask you a question from the scripture you reference here. Christ says that unless we abide in Him, we cannot bear good fruit. How true is this! Good works outside of Christ are pointless. Good works done in Christ are possible only because of Christ! THAT is why we cannot boast for it is Christ working through us. But notice that he says, “neither can you, unless you abide in me”. Is it not possible for a Christian to stop abiding in Him? The bible says it is possible. Do you agree? And if one stops abiding in Him, therefore no longer being worthy of Him, are they still saved?

This abiding in the vine is our faith in Christ.

Right, and that faith must be expressed through love. Remember, it’s the only thing that counts.

If I could be good enough to be saved, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed for me

Because it is impossible for you to be “good enough” to be saved. We are going 'round and 'round that tree. We can’t be saved without the Cross, it’s the ONLY reason we can be saved. The gift is ours and now the choice is ours. Either open it and live it, or throw it away. The gift of faith does not force us to be obedient. God offers us the grace. We can either cooperate with it, or ignore it.

You say that obedience is a product of your being saved. So I will ask the question again: Do you have to keep the commandments? Shouldn’t that really just be a “yes” or “no” answer? My answer is yes. You must keep the commandments. Why? Because Christ commanded it. The bible says so.

Peace!

 

[Spirit_Filled]

So how would you explain James 2:14-24 because what you say seems to be different… Please read it again and tell me how you interpret it. It doesn’t say that after you’re saved you’ll do good works or that first you’ll be judged worthy and then you’ll commence to doing fruitful works. How can anyone read this and still except that they can be saved by “faith alone”

SD

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God

The works that James is talking about here is Abrahams faith.
and not some physical or righteous outward thing, but just faith in God.
Here, this scripture further axpands on the subject:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For** if Abraham was justified by works**, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? **“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” **4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

It is all faith, not works. But what many fail to understand, is that
while pure Faith in Jesus Christ’s blood sacrifice alone is our
atonement, that does not mean that we have a liscence to commit sin. No, to the contrary! We now have become slaves unto righteousness just as Paul tells us:

Romans 6: 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

In Christ,
Chris

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Bowing is not worship, and kissing is not worship. Your argument has flatlined, and angry rhetoric will not resuscitate it.
.

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved (or graven) image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

Graven =
A primitive root; to carve, whether **wood or stone **-- grave, hew.

Moses called them the 10 Commandments,
Not the 10 Suggestions.

“You shall not make” does not leave any room for doubt or error…

In Christ Alone,
Chris

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

How do you explain Paul’s epistle to the Philippians in Ch 2:12 when he says** "So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation, not only when I happen to be with you, but all the more now that I am absent."
Other translations have** “.…work out your salvation…” ** Sounds to me like we need more than just faith.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Kolbe300]

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, **“Abraham believed **God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God

The works that James is talking about here is Abrahams faith.
and not some physical or righteous outward thing, but just faith in God.

Hi Chris! First of all, why did you leave out verse 24? Are you sure you are carefully reading the scriptures you are posting? You say that the works James is talking about is Abraham’s faith. If that is the case, then why does he separate the two? He clearly says that if you don’t have the works, you don’t have the faith. I don’t understand how that can be interpreted differently. Abraham’s faith was accounted to him for righteousness. But read what it says: “Do you see that faith was working together with his works.” Again, why does he make the distinction between the two? Now, did Abraham JUST believe God or did he take His belief into action by actually willingly offering his son as a sacrifice, as God demanded of him? What would have happened if Abraham said, “I believe you God, but there’s no way I’m killing my son.”? I believe in what the Bible says, that faith without works is dead. I believe a dead faith to not be a saving faith.

It is all faith, not works.

Your Bible says the exact opposite. James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

But what many fail to understand, is that
while pure Faith in Jesus Christ’s blood sacrifice alone is our
atonement, that does not mean that we have a liscence to commit sin. No, to the contrary! We now have become slaves unto righteousness just as Paul tells us:

This is the argument I have never understood, and therefore the reason I keep asking you if you have to keep the commandments. Are you saying that it is impossible for someone that believes in Jesus to be a slave of sin, when everyone knows that isn’t true? Or are you saying that being a slave of sin doesn’t matter as long as you are saved? I truly don’t believe you can have it both ways. If works in Christ are meaningless because, as you believe, faith is all that counts, why do you say “No, to the contrary!” when it comes to having a license to sin? If what you do with your faith doesn’t matter you can sin all you want. Sure, you shouldn’t, but you can.

Moses called them the 10 Commandments,
Not the 10 Suggestions.

Now we are getting somewhere! So you DO have to keep the commandments? Because if you say we should keep the commandments then low and behold, they’ve just become 10 suggestions. Do you see what I’m saying?

You are a brother in Christ and you are in my prayers. I hope you have a great day!

 

[SD_Catholic]

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, **“Abraham believed **God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God

In Christ,
Chris

Uhmmm… you missed a few in there… I said James 2:14-24. Ohh yeah those other verses aren’t important… No wonder Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James. Thanks Kolbe for your (name removed by moderator)ut:thumbsup:

SD

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Uhmmm… you missed a few in there… I said James 2:14-24. Ohh yeah those other verses aren’t important… No wonder Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James. Thanks Kolbe for your (name removed by moderator)ut:thumbsup:

SD

How many ways can it be said?

When we stand before God on the last day, will he say “enter the Joy of thy Lord” because we did any work at all that we are cleansed and justified by??
Our justification can be one thing and 1 thing only, and that is that we are clothed in the righteousness of the Blood of Christ.

There is no other thing that can please God.
But, with that said, God accepts our good works as acts of righteousness because of and through the shed Blood of Christ.

You seem to be saying that it is because of both of these things that I am saved and that is just not the case.

Let me refer back to the thief on the cross that Christ told would be in paradise with him on that day.

He obviously performed no good work, but his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.

In Christ,
Chris

 

[SD_Catholic]

Spirit Filled

How many ways can it be said?

Evidently many… you gave one of the wrong ways by trying to make your case by leaving out many important verses that I referred you to.

Let’s try these also (NAB) 15. If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16. and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17. So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

24. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You seem to be saying that it is because of both of these things that I am saved and that is just not the case.

I was saved when I was baptized, I will work out my salvation in my lifetime (you do remember St. Paul right?), and I will hope to be saved when I die. So yes, If I have all the faith in the world and no works to prove it, God will not know me. Don’t you believe Paul had faith in Jesus? If he was not sure of his own salvation how can we be… perhaps we have more faith than him???

Let me refer back to the thief on the cross that Christ told would be in paradise with him on that day.

He obviously performed no good work, but his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.

I’m sure somebody already pointed this out to you… but through his desire to do the will of God he was given saving grace upon his death. The Catholic Church teaches that one can be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or “baptism of desire” also rather than just the normal means of water baptism and living out a Christian life. Meaning that we believe God is not bound by his rules for exceptions like these. (Those who would truly live out their Godly life if given the chance)

SD

 

[Al_Masetti]

Perhaps some folks could enlighten me.

Which specific persons did Jesus condemn?

And which sinners did Jesus speak kindly with? The woman at the well. The woman “caught in adultery”. [Go and sin no more.]

If Jesus, the Judge, God, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, was kind and charitable and merciful to some sinners, then are we, here 2000 years later, permitted to declare who is condemned and who is not?

Some of the folks that we condemn might very well end up being asked by Jesus the Judge how they would feel about us being admitted to Heaven.

There is a story attributed to Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen: “When I get to Heaven, there will be three surprises: there will be some people in Heaven that I never expected to be there. There will be absent from Heaven some people what I was absolutely certain would be there. And, the biggest surprise of all, is that I am there.”

Be charitable … above all.

How many ways can it be said?

When we stand before God on the last day, will he say “enter the Joy of thy Lord” because we did any work at all that we are cleansed and justified by??
Our justification can be one thing and 1 thing only, and that is that we are clothed in the righteousness of the Blood of Christ.

There is no other thing that can please God.
But, with that said, God accepts our good works as acts of righteousness because of and through the shed Blood of Christ.

You seem to be saying that it is because of both of these things that I am saved and that is just not the case.

Let me refer back to the thief on the cross that Christ told would be in paradise with him on that day.

He obviously performed no good work, but his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.

In Christ,
Chris