To those with conservative views on salvation

[Kolbe300]

When we stand before God on the last day, will he say “enter the Joy of thy Lord” because we did any work at all that we are cleansed and justified by??
Our justification can be one thing and 1 thing only, and that is that we are clothed in the righteousness of the Blood of Christ.

Thankfully, Jesus answers that question for you speaking exactly of what happens at our judgement: “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.” And what does Jesus say happens to those who do not feed him, clothe him, welcome him, care for him, and visit him in the least of those among us? Eternal punishment. That’s not my opinion, it’s Christ’s words. You are free to believe that stuff doesn’t matter. If I were you I wouldn’t, though.

But, with that said, God accepts our good works as acts of righteousness because of and through the shed Blood of Christ.

Not only does God accept our good works, but He has given them to us: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:8-10

Remember Abraham? He not only believed, but he did what God asked of him even if it was difficult. We are called to the EXACT same thing. Faith without works is dead and works without faith are pointless. Those two verses above sum up the Catholic view of salvation beautifully. Our works do not save us. As I’ve said, there aren’t enough good works on the planet that could earn our salvation. We are saved through God’s grace and because God makes us new, anything we do is Christ acting through us. We cannot boast because all glory goes to God and God alone. The Bible says we are created to do good works. And it says that those works have been prepared for us in advance. I honestly caution you if you believe those works God has prepared for you are optional. Did Jesus not make it perfectly clear how we will be judged?

Here is Paul again:
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to **work out your salvation **with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will **and to act **according to his good purpose.” Phil 2:12-13

You seem to be saying that it is because of both of these things that I am saved and that is just not the case.

First of all, I would never judge anyone to be “saved” or not “saved.” As Paul says, “My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes.” 1 Cor 4:4-5. Some may view declaring themselves saved as an extreme act of confident faith. I view it as an act of extreme judging before the “appointed time”. I think we should do what Paul did and confidently hope for salvation (with fear and trembling). I hope that by now it’s clear that I don’t believe the works are what save us. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t demand the work be done.

Let me refer back to the thief on the cross that Christ told would be in paradise with him on that day. He obviously performed no good work, but his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.

I think the biggest reason the thief never walked the Christian walk is the fact that he was nailed to a cross at the time. Thank you for bringing it up though because it really is a great demonstration of how the works aren’t what save you. The thief was handed the same Gift you and I have been handed. He never had the opportunity to walk with that Gift. You and I, on the other hand, have each day the Lord gives us to share that gift. The choice is ours: either accept it and live it or reject it and don’t.

Peace!

 

[SeanTom]

There is only one GUARANTEED way for Christians to enter God’s Kingdom., and that way is through our Lord, Jesus Christ as supported by the one true church, the Catholic church. CCC 754: “The Church is, accordingly, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep”. The Catholic Church, the only true church, was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles where they then went forth preaching to and baptizing thousands - a great harvest of souls for the early Church.

There are possibly other ways to attain Heaven for those who do not know Jesus for reasons not of their own doing.

1. There are those who live in isolated areas of our world who never heard of Jesus and have never seen or heard God’s Word as given to us in Scripture. If they live lives worthy of God’s acceptance, they will then come under the merciful judgment of Jesus and will be taken into Heaven, if God so Wills.
2. There are those who call themselves Atheists; but were born into an Atheist’s family and were never permitted to hear of Jesus or His Kingdom; nor were they ever introduced to God or Jesus in any other way. If they didn’t believe in God because they never knew who He was, then God would, in His mercy, judge these people accordingly. We can not second guess how God will handle this, but must leave it up to His compassion and mercy.
3. There are those who call themselves Agnostics. These Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve in God, but sort of live on the rail of the fence. They believe in God only to the extent that they say “just in case there is one, I better not turn my back on Him”. But they never seek Him out nor do they read or listen to His Word. These Agnostics , unless they change their ways,
   probably will not see God’s Kingdom. There is an exception to this however. If these Agnostics lived a good life, following more or less the teachings of

Jesus, even though they were not aware of doing so, God may, in His wisdom, allow them to enter His Kingdom. God will know what is in their hearts and why they opted to remain Agnostic. It could be they were raised in an Agnostic family and were not permitted to even discuss God or any other
faith. I don’t know how God will handle this situation, but if they die while still children, I would like to think that the love of God for His special children would show His love and compassion towards them by accepting them into His Kingdom. Matthew 19:14: “Jesus said, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven’”

(Cont’d on next posting)

 

[SeanTom]

The above four examples speak for themselves and are ways for non-practicing Christians to enter God’s Kingdom. However, the people in these examples are subject to God’s compassion and mercy. BUT none of these four ways are guarantees that they will enter Heaven, they all depend on God’s mercy.

As for the Jewish people, I honestly don’t know how God will handle them, since they don’t believe that Jesus is the Savior for all people, and I can’t even render an opinion. All I know is that God is Just, God is compassionate, God is love and God will judge all people wisely and then either accept or reject them from His Heavenly Kingdom. God knows what is in their hearts and will judge them accordingly.

HOWEVER, there is a way we can GUARANTEE our admittance to God’s Heavenly Kingdom, and this certainly is the way we should all strive to
accomplish… In John 11:25: Jesus said…. ’I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.” John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” Jesus tells us that if we follow His teachings, we WILL see the Kingdom of God. That is His GUARANTEE to us.

The Catholic Catechism teaches: Article 847 “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” The phrase “through no fault of their own” can mean many things. But we must remember that we are all encouraged to find out as much as we can as to how we can attain God’s Heavenly Kingdom. “Through no fault of their own” doesn’t mean that one did not seek the truth, but refers to those who perhaps, for some reason or another, were hidden from the truth by force or otherwise restrained from knowing the truth through reading Scripture or Scriptural teachings.

I leave you with the following questions: Do we want to GUARANTEE our acceptance into God’s Kingdom? Or do we want to take chances and hope that God’s compassion and love for His adopted children, under any and all circumstances, will be our “ticket” into Heaven? Think about it! In order to GUARANTEE your entrance into Heaven, you should know that the one true church is the Catholic church. Follow the teachings of Jesus as given to us by the Catholic Church, study God’s Word in Scripture, go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, receive the Rite of Reconciliation and Holy Communion as often as you can, and love your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Al_Masetti]

No guarantees.

Only hope.

Jesus, and Jesus alone, is the Judge of who gets in and who does not.

We do the absolute best we can and hope for the best.

Keep in mind that Jesus preferred the company of sinners over the company of the religious elite of His time.

AND … the first person that He admitted into Heaven was a TERRIBLE sinner who made a repentence of sorts.

[Suggestion: Be nice to His Mother. ]

 

[Spirit_Filled]

Evidently many… you gave one of the wrong ways by trying to make your case by leaving out many important verses that I referred you to.

Let’s try these also (NAB) 15. If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16. and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17. So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

24. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I was saved when I was baptized, I will work out my salvation in my lifetime (you do remember St. Paul right?), and I will hope to be saved when I die. So yes, If I have all the faith in the world and no works to prove it, God will not know me. Don’t you believe Paul had faith in Jesus? If he was not sure of his own salvation how can we be… perhaps we have more faith than him???

I’m sure somebody already pointed this out to you… but through his desire to do the will of God he was given saving grace upon his death. The Catholic Church teaches that one can be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or “baptism of desire” also rather than just the normal means of water baptism and living out a Christian life. Meaning that we believe God is not bound by his rules for exceptions like these. (Those who would truly live out their Godly life if given the chance)

SD

You said:
“The Catholic Church teaches that one can be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or “baptism of desire” also rather than just the normal means of water baptism and living out a Christian life”

You are correct, the catholic church teaches these things, not the God of the Bible. You will not find these doctrines in the Word of God.

In The Revelation, the Lord tells us this:
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What you and the catholic church are doing is “Adding” to what the Lord has written.
We should ALL search the scriptures, and not follow blindly just because a religious organization tells us what traditions it has concocted over the past 1800 years.

 

[SD_Catholic]

You said:
“The Catholic Church teaches that one can be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or “baptism of desire” also rather than just the normal means of water baptism and living out a Christian life”

You are correct, the catholic church teaches these things, not the God of the Bible. You will not find these doctrines in the Word of God.

In The Revelation, the Lord tells us this:
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What you and the catholic church are doing is “Adding” to what the Lord has written.
We should ALL search the scriptures, and not follow blindly just because a religious organization tells us what traditions it has concocted over the past 1800 years.

Wow! I haven’t posted for a LONG time, I realized it wasn’t good for my soul anymore, but I suppose it must have been meant to be.

I know God inspired Scripture to be written, but if you have time please research more into how we actually ended up with a Bible (“Where we got the Bible” by Henry Graham is a good place to start… it can be read online). But just some quick points… God didn’t “write” the Bible, He inspired men to write Scripture and they used their own words and experiences to reveal the Truth that God intended for us to know. He also inspired men to sort through the many many writings to discover the ones that were “inspired”… The process didn’t happen over night either… almost 300 years until we got the NT canon we all have today. The writings of these same men that canonized those Sacred writings are very interesting to read.

The “book” you quote from Rev is often used to say that the Catholic Church added to the Bible. But please consider these things… the “book” it is referring to is only the book of Revelation… it is the only book of prophecy in the NT, plus there was no Bible/book at that time for it to be referring to. Also, the “Catholic” Bible was the only Bible used til the 1500s, so I doubt the Holy Spirit would have allowed the wrong canon of Scripture to be used for that long before making the corrections during the reformation.

ps… I’ve never been so “unblindly” lead in my life as I am right now. I know you’re telling me what you think is best for me, but believe me when I tell you that I want the same for you.

 

[jmcrae]

You said:
“The Catholic Church teaches that one can be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or “baptism of desire” also rather than just the normal means of water baptism and living out a Christian life”

“Baptism of blood” is a martyr’s death - someone who, though not baptized, dies for Christ - such as a Catechumen (an adult convert who is not yet baptized) and “baptism of desire” is when someone dies who is beginning to live the Christian life, and was planning to be baptized. They don’t apply to people who never in their whole lives thought of being Christians.

You are correct, the catholic church teaches these things, not the God of the Bible. You will not find these doctrines in the Word of God.

Actually, we find that the Good Thief went to Heaven without water baptism - it was on the strength of his Christian faith (baptism of desire) that he went to Heaven.

In The Revelation, the Lord tells us this:
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What you and the catholic church are doing is “Adding” to what the Lord has written.
We should ALL search the scriptures, and not follow blindly just because a religious organization tells us what traditions it has concocted over the past 1800 years.

The Church has never added or subtracted anything except for explanations and deeper understandings of what the Apostles gave to them, at the very beginning.

 

[Gregory_I]

Hey guys, remember: Heaven is not the default. We are all born slaves to sin. Remember original sin? We are born justly condemned, dead, and under the wrath of God. Our primary destination from conception, to death is hell, unless GOd chooses to intervene in our lives with his grace.

NO ONE deserves heaven. NOt even the infant of a single day is pure in his sight, for all are guilty, and none are born innocent.

The “invincible ignorance” so many modern(ist) theologians like to tout is very simple: It simply mean that a person cannot be held guilty of the sin of unbelief. But they can be held guilty of about a million other sins they will commit in their life, devoid of Christ’s grace and destined for hell, unless Christ intervene miracluously, like making the faith available to them through the ministry of an angel.

None who die in ignorance can be saved, because the ignorant do not have sanctifying grace. If you contend they DO, when did they receive it? How? Were they baptized? Did GOd suddenly infuse grace into their soul; a grace they KNOW NOTHING about? How can they freely choose that which they do not know?

If any who are ignorant are saved, it is through the Church alone that they are saved, for there is absolutely no salvation outside the church. Meaning, that all who ARE saved are saved as CATHOLICS. THis means in one way or another the DARKNESS of ignorance is dispelled from the heart of man, and his will is freed from the bondage of sin, and Christ enlightens him enough to resolve to accept the truth and intend to receive baptism.

THAT kind of a person could be justified: BUt NONE will be justified without faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

DO I lose sleep over this? NO, for all the works of God are just. As he told the Pharisees: “He that is of God hears God’s Words; Ye therefore hear them not, because you are not of God.”

Translation: "Those who are to be saved will have God’s word reveled to them; but to you, it is not revealed, because you will not be saved because of your sinfulness.

This applies to every nation who has not yet heard the gospel. If they would have desired him, they would have heard of him. But because they do not desire, they do not hear. God does not abandon a people to error who are willing to embrace truth. But if he seems to, we must conclude they are unwilling to embrace the truth.

The Good thief was saved because he manifested faith, charity, and repentance. He was not saved by BOD because there was no baptism for him to desire yet. The church was not yet born, neither had Christ enjoined man to baptism. This thief died under the old covenant, and was probably the very last person to do so. He entered into limbo, probably right alongside Christ, saw all the fathers there, and took off to heaven with them when Christ trampled down the gates of hades.

 

[Spirit_Filled]

QUOTE=SD Catholic;7740728]Wow! I haven’t posted for a LONG time, I realized it wasn’t good for my soul anymore, but I suppose it must have been meant to be.

I know God inspired Scripture to be written, but if you have time please research more into how we actually ended up with a Bible (“Where we got the Bible” by Henry Graham is a good place to start… it can be read online). But just some quick points… God didn’t “write” the Bible, He inspired men to write Scripture and they used their own words and experiences to reveal the Truth that God intended for us to know. He also inspired men to sort through the many many writings to discover the ones that were “inspired”… The process didn’t happen over night either… almost 300 years until we got the NT canon we all have today. The writings of these same men that canonized those Sacred writings are very interesting to read.

The “book” you quote from Rev is often used to say that the Catholic Church added to the Bible. But please consider these things… the “book” it is referring to is only the book of Revelation… it is the only book of prophecy in the NT, plus there was no Bible/book at that time for it to be referring to. Also, the “Catholic” Bible was the only Bible used til the 1500s, so I doubt the Holy Spirit would have allowed the wrong canon of Scripture to be used for that long before making the corrections during the reformation.

ps… I’ve never been so “unblindly” lead in my life as I am right now. I know you’re telling me what you think is best for me, but believe me when I tell you that I want the same for you.

Hey, good morning and blessings to you in Christ.

You said that “God didn’t “write” the Bible, He inspired men to write Scripture and they used their own words and experiences to reveal the Truth that God intended for us to know.”

Look at the following verses and see that they all have one thing in common:

Mark 7:13 making** the word of God **of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Luke 8:21
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear** the word of God** and do it.”

John 10:35
If He called them gods, to whom** the word of God **came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke **the word of God **with boldness.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

That description “The Word of God” is speaking of the thoughts of the Father through the Holy Spirit, Here is the Greek definition of “Word” that is being used:

3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, “speaking to a conclusion”) – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos (“word”) is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.

The phrase “The Word of God” is used 42 times in the New Testament.
To say that it is not God speaking directly to us, or that it was not God that wrote the New Testament is truly just not accurate. God Himself is the Author of the Bible! The Bible would have absolutely no meaning if it were written simply from the thoughts of men, it only has the Power that it has because its author is in fact GOD Himself.

Look at this verse:
1 Corinthians 14:35-37
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

and this one again:

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke **the word of God **with boldness.

It was because they were Filled with The Holy Spirit that they spoke the Word of God, which would soon afterwards be written down for us, It had nothing to do with their own personal experiences outside of being moved by God’s Spirit.

In the verse of 1 Cor 14:37, Paul himself tells us that it is the Commandments of the Lord that he writes, and not his own words!

The fact that the Bible was compiled and assembled over the period of years that it was, does not at all diminish the fact the GOD himself is the author and finisher of our faith, and the Word that instructs us in that faith…

Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And faith comes by hearing that Word of GOD:
1.Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and** hearing by the word of God**.

The Word of GOD is His express thoughts through the Holy Spirit, not mans express thoughts.

If we take away from the LORD his authority in our lives by way of the Bible, then what do we have??
Nothing more than the flawed opinions of other men.

But thanks be to the LORD that His Word is Holy and we can trust that it is certainly from Him and from Him alone!!

Blessings in Christ,
Chris

 

[Warrenton]

Does it ever keep you awake at night, or interfere with your prayers, or make you angry or cold towards God, to think that if you ever do get to heaven, the vast majority of those you loved on earth, maybe even your own parents, spouses and children, won’t be there, and therefore you’ll know that they are in hell for all eternity. Don’t you think that would diminish your joy in heaven, no matter how wonderful it is to be with God?

Yes, it keeps me awake at night, but I am awake worrying I won’t get to heaven because of my sins.

I do not attempt to apply the laws of the Church to people in general. I worry about myself, and the people in my immediate sphere who I can legitmately influence in my station in life. As for the rest, the best I can do is try to set a good example.

Regarding humanity in general, I trust in the justice and mercy of God to reward or punish them as He sees fit.

If I leave, and die unreconciled, however, I believe that I will go to Hell. I take the teaching as one directed to me for my salvation. I am personally responsible to fulfill the command.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Yes, it keeps me awake at night, but I am awake worrying I won’t get to heaven because of my sins.

I do not believe it is spiritually healthy to worry about one’s salvation. I do believe it is spiritually healthy to be concerned about one’s salvation. That is an important distinction that ought to be made.

 

[Warrenton]

I do not believe it is spiritually healthy to worry about one’s salvation. I do believe it is spiritually healthy to be concerned about one’s salvation. That is an important distinction that ought to be made.

I’m not sure I follow the distinction between “concern” and “worry.”

Can we agree on “fear and trembling?”

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I’m not sure I follow the distinction between “concern” and “worry.”

Can we agree on “fear and trembling?”

We agree with fear and trembling.

What I’m referring to is when Jesus says we ought not to worry (Luke 22:25-26)

"Can any of you by worrying add a moment to your lifespan? If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest?"

So be on guard with fear and trembling (i.e. be concerned about our own salvation), but do not worry because it is pointless. There is a distinction, and I understand that it can sometimes be a fine line.

 

[Dymphna82]

Does it ever keep you awake at night, or interfere with your prayers, or make you angry or cold towards God, to think that if you ever do get to heaven, the vast majority of those you loved on earth, maybe even your own parents, spouses and children, won’t be there, and therefore you’ll know that they are in hell for all eternity. Don’t you think that would diminish your joy in heaven, no matter how wonderful it is to be with God?

I think what is often wrong about current times are that there are so many who think feeling is more important than facts. Feeling angry or cold towards God does not change God’s will. God is not a politician or a celebrity whose power depends on popularity.

I mean, I saw this thing about accepting gay marriage on the news a few weeks ago. And there was some Catholic woman saying that the Church is being a bit behind on the times and lighten up. Um, no. It’s not Burger King, have it your way, it’s God’s way.