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Michael19682
Guest
Very good quote, but the Lord is not contradicting God’s goodness nor of the fact that he created no evil. Evil arises of human choice and illicit exercising of freewill.
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chosen_people
Guest
Bad translations make for bad interpretations!
To begin to translate the Jewish scriptures, it is problematic to translate from Hebrew to Greek to English instead of directly from the Hebrew. It is necessary to translate not only with an understanding of the Hebrew language but also, and perhaps even more importantly, the context of the words.
You cannot understand Jeremiah 20:7 without having read and understood Jeremiah 1, especially Jeremiah 1:5. Knowing that Jeremiah would protest that he is not worthy for his prophetic mission, God begins by saying to Jeremiah that he was destined for his prophetic mission even before he was born. Jeremiah goes on to detail how God persuaded him, despite his objections, to become a prophet (Jeremiah 1:4-10) This is the basis for what Jeremiah is saying to God in Jeremiah 20:7. I, Jeremiah, did not want to accept the mission but You, God, prevailed upon me to do so. Now the words:
“פתיתני (השם) ואפת” could possibly be misconstrued for “enticement”. However, anyone translating with an understanding of the context, would properly use the word “persuaded”.
Jeremiah 20:7 “You persuaded me, Hashem, and I was persuaded; You were more forceful
than I and You prevailed.”
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Michael19682
Guest
Your reply is good on some points, not so skilfull on others. To begin, there is no malice in a translation that aims at rendering one language into another in a comprehensible way. Thats is an errant judgment. Persuasion is not a forceful thing; close to influence, maybe, but in Jeremiah making reference to Jeremiah’s own conception/formation in the womb precludes the idea of force. Jeremiah, at least as far as I read, was a prophet whom the Lord promised to protect with force. His indictment against Israel will involve force again and again until they accept God’s gentle nature and don’t rebel against it. To reduce God’s appeal to logic and to ignore it’s pronouncement of love for his people would only harden their hearts anew in light of eventual persecution. Such is the message of the hard hearted and rapacious who say, in effect, “We listened to God’s reasoning and look where we are now.” Such is the mistaken basis on which Moses was persecuted in the desert until God worked loving, not persuasive, miracles.
Jesus fulfills this prophet’s mission and promises by offering a love that also comes from the womb by a means totally opposite of any (sexual) force. The Spirit of God incarnate from a virgin womb. Mary acquiesces to the Spirit. One could say that her assent was surely not born of deception, and neither of persuasion nor seduction. Grace transcends all of these, especially the latter two, and is the plan of salvation promised by the Spirit through the prophets.
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chosen_people
Guest
Indeed, it is a well known fact that Jews do not know how to interpret the Jewish scriptures nor are they able understand the Jewish scriptures.
I’m also not sure that Jeremiah is your best bet for your promotion of the rejection of the Jewish concept and definition of God:
The Jewish prophets (among them Jeremiah) have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:
"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.
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Love4All
Guest
Whether that is a “fact” or not is probably a matter of contention. It does seem, however, that, if Jesus is the Messiah, they are unable to understand their own Scriptures testifying to the fact. Otherwise, why would they still be Jews?Indeed, it is a well known fact that Jews do not know how to interpret the Jewish scriptures nor are they able understand the Jewish scriptures.
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chosen_people
Guest
Those “exceptional” Jews
There are those who believe that the Jews are “exceptional”. By this they mean that what applies to others does apply to the Jews. Everyone is entitled “except” the Jews.
There is nothing these others believe that cannot be taken from the Jew, that cannot be denied the Jew.
The Jews and God made an eternal covenant. No, others say, it is no longer your covenant, it is our covenant. Your covenant is old. Ours in new. Your Torah is no longer relevant, it has been “fulfilled”. We and not you are the holders of the covenant.
The Jews have their scriptures. No, others say, these are no longer yours. They are a part of ours. You Jews do not understand your scriptures, you do not know how to interpret your scriptures, or to translate them or know the “real” text of your scriptures.
God and the Jews gave the world the concept of the Sabbath. No the others say, this is no longer the day of rest. We have made a new day for the Sabbath and yours in no longer valid.
God and the Jews taught the equality of all men, that redemption is open to all, that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come. No, the others say, you Jews, since you do not believe what we believe, are denied redemption, are denied the World to Come, the place we call Heaven. In fact, our god of compassion, of love and forgiveness, has created a special place called Hell, where people are eternally and brutally tortured. Many of us believe that is where Jews go when they die.
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Michael19682
Guest
chosen people, to say that an interpretation is “bad” because of a “bad” translation does involve as you say dependence on context. since we Christians believe Jesus is who we say he is, naturally our context includes his revelations and teaching on the mystery of the kingdom of heaven. that we have a new context again leads to different interpretations of the same thing. your quote, as you must realize, does not refer to the words of Jesus. If his words should perish, this is not verified yet. If they do, any reference to them would be meaningless and thus whatever Chosen person hearing Jeremiah’s prophesy fulfilled by the pagans coming from the ends of the earth would not know what such prophesy meant. That Jewish person would have to reply, “What are you talking about ‘gods’ – never heard of them.” Thus, in a way that can stand everything upside down, even if Jesus is taken erroneously as falsehood, his enduring words form the overwhelming basis among the nations for the fulfillment of the words of the prophets. I.e. intelligibility.Indeed, it is a well known fact that Jews do not know how to interpret the Jewish scriptures nor are they able understand the Jewish scriptures.
I’m also not sure that Jeremiah is your best bet for your promotion of the rejection of the Jewish concept and definition of God:
The Jewish prophets (among them Jeremiah) have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:
"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.
as for your remarks on the more personal front of propoganda, and aside from any irony you intend or imagine I remain blind to, what gives you the idea that I here promote a “concept and definition” of God? Or that I reject the Jewish one? Amen, everyone everywhere is waiting for the Messiah. Jews, for his arrival. Christians, for his second coming. Isn’t it worth the wait in either case?
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Michael19682
Guest
have you ever read the gospel of Jesus? Matthew in particular was written for the Jewish community’s benefit. If you know what he actually says, you wouldn’t be so afraid of where Jewish people go. He loved Jews first and foremost. Heaven is not such a bad compensation for all of life’s difficulties.
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chosen_people
Guest
Well the thing is that the things in Matthew that Jews can agree with, were things that God and the Jews had already taught the world and which we already knew long before the arrival of the Christian leader. Matthew may present these things unattributed and as something original and new, however this was hardly the case.
A few examples:
Psalms 37;11
'but the humble shall inherit the earth, and delight in abundant peace"
becomes in Matthew 5:5 (the sermon on the mount)
‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth’
Psalms 24:3-4
“Who may ascend the mountain of Hashem and who may stand in the place of sanctity?One with clean hand and pure heart;”
becomes in Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”
Lamentations 3:30
“Let one offer his cheek to the smiter, let him be filled with disgrace”
becomes in Matthew 5;39 becomes
“…but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…”
and many more
The problem is that Pauline Christianity, which eventually defeated competing Christian rivals, rejected the Jewish Jesus, rejected the definition and concept of God and became a religion for the pagan masses of the Roman Empire. There is this remnant element which Christians refer to as the “Judeo-Christian ethic”. However Christianity is not Judaism with Jesus, as many Christians mistakenly believe.
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Michael19682
Guest
The answer is love. Philos, eros, and agape. Terms and concepts the Romans and Greeks are familiar with. These answer how to live according to the commandments. The Romans had their own litigious society. Love simplifies things for them, including adherence to their more Western laws. It’s very practical.
Remember, the pagans were not within ear shot when the Israelites were enjoined to those 10 commandments on Sinai. That as you said is the basis for the Jewish belief that they have a more difficult time than others.
As for what you call Paulican Christianity (and the problem it) represents. Do you mean that you would like to claim Christianity as your own right, and would do so were it not for Paul’s letters? If so, there should be nothing holding you back.
The only encouragement I can offer is the words of Jesus. However, they need considerable prayer over since you will not readily find the ones below in support of my position on this.
“the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone”
If you skip over Paul, perhaps you will find the gospels themselves more ‘becoming’ (n.). Paul goes on and on about love’s importance, but Jesus taught its meaning. I, a Roman Catholic, might need Paul. But maybe you can find meaning without reading him?
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TEPO
Guest
I thought this was a good point… Every human person has their own charisma, no two being exactly the same.
…but at the same time, our world would be a lie, or “upside down”, if we tried to view it from somebody else’s eyes -somebody else’s “charisma”. We must find ourselves, and discover the depths of our own charisma -which may be larger than the universe, and might take an eternity.
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Ion
Guest
This is something i was wndering about Judaism: you believe that Messiah will come and lead, but I ask you, what kind of world, a sinful one? Isn’t there a need for redemtion? In all the movies I have seen, Jews were waiting for Messiah with expectation for a much better life, but nothing about sin; excuse me if it sounds tough, but sounds like “God have given me 10 sheeps, one will go for my sins…”
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Love4All
Guest
You sound angry.
In “your” Scriptures it is stated, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. By the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes.”
What do you make of this passage? To whom or what does it refer? Can you identify the stone?
It sounds to me like you would wish God would maintain a special covenant, only for you and your fellow Jews, and leave the rest of the world out. Catholicism is Universal, Judaism is Parochial. If your God created heaven and earth, and the whole human race, by what right do you claim to keep Him only for yourself? You resent the idea that “your” Scriptures are now “our” Scriptures.
In “your” Scriptures it is stated, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. By the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes.”
What do you make of this passage? To whom or what does it refer? Can you identify the stone?
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