To what degree are we being duped by God?

[Robert_Sock]

So when do express joy, jubilation, happiness, communing with nature and other human beings? Life is not all sack cloth and ashes.

Those thing have no real place in my life. I rely on spiritual joy found through religion. I’m pretty strict with myself here in this miserable and corrupt world.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yes, I believe that is true, and I’m the type that I’m alway trying to see and understand more.

Me, too. But sooner or later you have to leave your intellect behind and seek in the spirit. Sooner or later, only contemplation will answer your questions. And when you get the answer, you’ll know - but you won’t be able to explain it very well. Go into Eternity, Robert. That’s where the answers are. Or, don’t, but live in pure faith, because you know what Aquinas said at the end.

 

[Love4All]

“You duped me, O LORD, and I let myself be duped;
you were too strong for me, and you triumphed.”
-Jeremiah 20:7

I believe deception is deep and affects the world as a whole. In previous threads I contended that it was Satan who deceived the world with deceit and lies, but the above passage of scripture seems to imply God also dupes us.

I believe we live in a ‘grand illusion,’ but whose responsible is a bit of a mystery! What impact does this have on our perception of reality? I believe there is a great discrepancy between reality and perceived reality! I believe this affects not just the secular world, but the religious as well.

We live in an upside-down world, which people perceive as being right-side-up. It’s a make-believe world, filled with deception!

First, as to the sense in Jeremiah, we need to look more deeply into the context:

Jeremiah 20:
7 You duped me, O LORD, and I let myself be duped; you were too strong for me, and you triumphed. All the day I am an object of laughter; everyone mocks me.
8
Whenever I speak, I must cry out, violence and outrage is my message; The word of the LORD has brought me derision and reproach all the day.
9
I say to myself, I will not mention him, I will speak in his name no more. But then it becomes like fire burning in my heart, imprisoned in my bones; I grow weary holding it in, I cannot endure it.
10
Yes, I hear the whisperings of many: “Terror on every side! Denounce! let us denounce him!” All those who were my friends are on the watch for any misstep of mine. “Perhaps he will be trapped; then we can prevail, and take our vengeance on him.”

See, Jeremiah is very much complaining to God that the prophetic message has brought him suffering. It is the same for Saint John, who was told, “take the little scroll from the hand of the angel, and eat it up, and in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey, but it will turn your stomach bitter.” The honey taste is what Jeremiah refers to as the deception. Indeed, the Word of God is wonderful beyond compare in the contemplation of the mind. But speak the Word of God to your fellow human being, and you are in for a round of trouble! Not everyone appreciates God as He should be appreciated, and the Prophet feels this most keenly.

After that, I want to say that I do not believe what we perceive is an illusion, but sometimes our thoughts can color our perceptions and that can lead to illusions. I hold that there are three realms that concern us: reality, perception, and thought. Reality is what it is. Perception is what we see, the phenomena as opposed to the noumena. Thought is what we form in our minds as our interpretation of our perception. So thought is at best two steps removed from reality, and if we wish to think what is true, we are responsible for refining both our thought and our perception. Ideally, we would like all three to match up. We would like to think the truth, and accurately perceive reality.

 

[Love4All]

Some would say that the mathematical language by which we describe the universe is actually the foundation of it. In other words physical reality is the produce of mathematical forms. In that respect we are in a kind of matrix.

The “laws of nature” are expressed mathematically, but the substance of energy itself is mysterious. It is found in nature quantified according to mathematically expressible laws, but “what” it is that is being quantified, is not math.

 

[R_C]

But God certainly allows Satan to deceive us. The passage that God duped Jeremiah caught my interest.

Jeremiah was a fallible man. He said God deceived him. That was his impression. It doesn’t mean God deceived him.

And God allows Satan to do a lot of things, and us as well. That does not mean God deceives us. Ultimately it is us who let ourselves be deceived. Especially when we make the works of Satan as our own and start deceiving as well

 

[Robert_Sock]

Me, too. But sooner or later you have to leave your intellect behind and seek in the spirit. Sooner or later, only contemplation will answer your questions. And when you get the answer, you’ll know - but you won’t be able to explain it very well. Go into Eternity, Robert. That’s where the answers are. Or, don’t, but live in pure faith, because you know what Aquinas said at the end.

Yes, I take Saint Aquinas’ claim that all he wrote is of little value, but I’m retired, and I probably spend too much of my spare time on CAF.

 

[D_Martin]

My interpretion is that Jeremiah’s crisis was made after his prophesies led to persection. The lord had promised to set things aright against the disobedient. Then Jeremiah is faced with the power of the priests officers. The verse you quote to me shows that in his struggle to find God in his situation outwardly, he is psychologically, inwardly, in the predicament of feeling as punished as the enemy he spoke against (will in the future on the arrival of the Messiah), hence experiences a kind of hybrid Stockholm syndrome. He addresses God, calling him a deceiver, to apparently show his reader what he thinks. It is the state of being honest with God and his future students. The deception is an inner emotional maneuver and a newer translation uses the word seduced. I think ‘deceived’ makes Jeremiah a kind of fool in common usage, whereas ‘seduced’ shows the inner crisis more clearly and brings Jeremiah as a person experiencing the lord, closer to the heart and more in a corporeal relationship with God and hence more similar to Jesus.

Michael19682

Excellent, excellent point, as the rest of the chapter reads, Jeremiah feels as though his calling, if you will, doesn’t have the respect of his fellow Israelites, and the rest of his life was to be difficult at best. And incarceration might have not been foreseen in his eyes. But considering all that Jeremiah did, he never left his people, though most of them refuse to heed what the Lord told him to say to them. This was his people, his nation, his country that were suffering the consequences of their refusal to fear the Lord their God. That had to be very tough to go through.

 

[Michael19682]

Excellent, excellent point, as the rest of the chapter reads, Jeremiah feels as though his calling, if you will, doesn’t have the respect of his fellow Israelites, and the rest of his life was to be difficult at best. And incarceration might have not been foreseen in his eyes. But considering all that Jeremiah did, he never left his people, though most of them refuse to heed what the Lord told him to say to them. This was his people, his nation, his country that were suffering the consequences of their refusal to fear the Lord their God. That had to be very tough to go through.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yes, I take Saint Aquinas’ claim that all he wrote is of little value, but I’m retired, and I probably spend too much of my spare time on CAF.

Get Netflix streaming video, then you’ll have two places to spend too much time online. I’m also retired. This is how a lot of us intersect the world. This place is how we share our experience of God and the Church. All I meant about Aquinas is, that you can’t get where you always seem to want to go through intellect. Our brains are just like our computers, it’s how we encounter each other, it makes us relative to one another. But I’m this whole person I can’t become to anyone this way, even though you can know a lot about me, you cannot know me.

You want to know God, anyone who wants to know God, we have to go to Him, ask Him to bring us to Him outside of Time/space/matter. I have a relatively large and pretty much worthless intellectual ability. God is beyond. Go beyond.

You can translate that Hebrew more than a few ways. You can understand it was written by a guy and his understanding isn’t anything like what happened. God hasn’t fooled anyone at all ever. It’s impossible by definition.

 

[ericc]

But God certainly allows Satan to deceive us. The passage that God duped Jeremiah caught my interest.

You meant God allows freewill to run its course. We can choose not to be deceived. Problem is, we wanted to be deceived. We wanted to get from Point A to Point B via shortcuts, the easy way, the unjust way, the wrong way. Examples of easy ways, cheat, lie, rob etc. Satan can not “force” us to sin. We sin on our own accord.

 

[Ion]

In my Bible, which is not an english translation, the word used is equivalent of “convinced against personal opinion”. There is an indication of another word which would fit in, equivalent of “having ilusions about the outcome”.
Jeremia was really betwen hammer and the anvil, and he loved God and the people of Israel. Those were illusions because of the king & comp and not because of God

 

[empther]

Jeremiah was going through a period of persecution. He even regrets his birth. Haven’t you ever felt that way? NO!!! You’ve led a charmed life, friend.

Jeremiah does not say God tricked him. What he’s complaining about is that his loyal service to God has led to his persecution, but you can see that in this same passage he praises God and says God will triumph over his enemies.

Jeremiah 20:

JEREMIAH’S INTERIOR CRISIS
7
You seduced me,* LORD, and I let myself be seduced;
you were too strong for me, and you prevailed.
All day long I am an object of laughter;
everyone mocks me.
8
Whenever I speak, I must cry out,
violence and outrage I proclaim;
The word of the LORD has brought me
reproach and derision all day long.
9
I say I will not mention him,
I will no longer speak in his name.
But then it is as if fire is burning in my heart,
imprisoned in my bones;
I grow weary holding back,
I cannot!f
10
Yes, I hear the whisperings of many:
“Terror on every side!
Denounce! let us denounce him!”
All those who were my friends
are on the watch for any misstep of mine.
“Perhaps he can be tricked; then we will prevail,
and take our revenge on him.”g
11
But the LORD is with me, like a mighty champion:
my persecutors will stumble, they will not prevail.
In their failure they will be put to utter shame,
to lasting, unforgettable confusion.h
12
LORD of hosts, you test the just,
you see mind and heart,
Let me see the vengeance you take on them,
for to you I have entrusted my cause.i
13
Sing to the LORD,
praise the LORD,
For he has rescued the life of the poor
from the power of the evildoers!j
14
Cursed be the day*
on which I was born!
May the day my mother gave me birth
never be blessed!k
15
Cursed be the one who brought the news
to my father,
“A child, a son, has been born to you!”
filling him with great joy.
16
Let that man be like the cities
which the LORD relentlessly overthrew;
Let him hear war cries in the morning,
battle alarms at noonday,l
17
because he did not kill me in the womb!
Then my mother would have been my grave,
her womb confining me forever.m
18
Why did I come forth from the womb,
to see sorrow and pain,
to end my days in shame?

 

[R_C]

:dts:

Should have checked the IV Century Latin Bible earlier…

Seduxisti me Domine

Seducere: “to lead apart or astray”, from se- (“aside, away, astray”) + ducere (“to lead”). “Dupe” or “deceive” won’t probably count as mistaken translations, but definitely don’t count as the most accurate translations either

 

[inocente]

“You duped me, O LORD, and I let myself be duped;
you were too strong for me, and you triumphed.”
-Jeremiah 20:7

I believe deception is deep and affects the world as a whole. In previous threads I contended that it was Satan who deceived the world with deceit and lies, but the above passage of scripture seems to imply God also dupes us.

I believe we live in a ‘grand illusion,’ but whose responsible is a bit of a mystery! What impact does this have on our perception of reality? I believe there is a great discrepancy between reality and perceived reality! I believe this affects not just the secular world, but the religious as well.

We live in an upside-down world, which people perceive as being right-side-up. It’s a make-believe world, filled with deception!

Did you never read Isaiah? Man. my divinity teacher loved Isaiah, I leaned about the hidden god, the all powerful god, the god who is the source of evil as well as good, beside which all other idols are tribal gods (present Catholic company accepted of course ).

 

[R_C]

the god who is the source of evil as well as good

Then, dear friend, you still have a lot of reading to do, for God is not the source of evil, a statement both contrary to Scripture and contrary to reason.

there cannot be evil in God.

For being and goodness, and all names that are predicated essentially, have nothing extraneous mixed with them, although that which is or good can have something besides being and goodness. For nothing prevents the subject of one perfection from being the subject of another, just as that which is a body can be white and sweet. Now, each nature is enclosed within the limits of its notion, so that it cannot include anything extraneous within itself. But, as we have proved, God is goodness, and not simply good. There cannot, therefore, be any non-goodness in Him. Thus, there cannot possibly be evil in God.

Moreover, what is opposed to the essence of a given thing cannot befit that thing so long as its essence remains. Thus, irrationality or insensibility cannot befit man unless he ceases to be a man. But the divine essence is goodness itself, as we have shown. Therefore, evil, which is the opposite of good, could have no place in God—unless He ceased to be God, which is impossible, since He is eternal, as we have shown.

Furthermore, since God is His own being, nothing can be said of Him by participation, as is evident from the above argument. If, then, evil is said of God, it will not be said by participation, but essentially. But evil cannot be so said of anything as to be its essence, for it would lose its being, which is a good, as we have shown. In evil, however, there can be nothing extraneous mixed with it, as neither in goodness. Evil, therefore, cannot be said of God.

Again, evil is the opposite of good. But the nature of the good consists in perfection, which means that the nature of evil consists in imperfection. Now, in God, Who is universally perfect, as we have shown above, there cannot be defect or imperfection. Therefore, evil cannot be in God.

Then, too, a thing is perfect according as it is in act. A thing will therefore be imperfect according as it falls short of act. Hence, evil is either a privation or includes privation. But the subject of privation is potency, which cannot be in God. Neither, therefore, can evil.

If, moreover, the good is “that which is sought by all,” it follows that every nature flees evil as such. Now, what is in a thing contrary to the motion of its natural appetite is violent and unnatural. Evil in each thing, consequently, is violent and unnatural, so far as it is an evil for that thing; although, among composite things, evil may he natural to a thing according to something within it. But God is not composite, nor, as we have shown, can there be anything violent or unnatural in Him. Evil, therefore, cannot be in God.

Scripture likewise confirms this. For it is said in the canonic Epistle of John (I, 1:5): “God is light and in Him there is no darkness”; and in Job (34:10) it is written: “Far from God be wickedness; and iniquity from the Almighty.”

God cannot will evil.

For the virtue of a being is that by which he operates well. Now every operation of God is an operation of virtue, since His virtue is His essence, as was shown above. Therefore, God cannot will evil.

Again, the will never aims at evil without some error existing in the reason, at least with respect to a particular object of choice. For, since the object of the will is the apprehended good, the will cannot aim at evil unless in some way it is proposed to it as a good; and this cannot take place without error. But in the divine knowledge there cannot be error, as was shown above. God’s will cannot, therefore, tend towards evil.

Moreover, God is the highest good, as has been shown. But the highest good cannot bear any mingling with evil, as neither can the highest hot thing bear any mingling with the cold. The divine will, therefore, cannot be turned to evil.

Furthermore, since the good has the nature of an end, evil cannot enter the will except by turning away from the end. But the divine will cannot be turned from the end, since it can will nothing except by willing itself. Therefore, it cannot will evil.

And thus it appears that free choice in God naturally stands abiding in the -good.

This is what is said in Deuteronomy (32:4): “God is faithful and without any iniquity”; and Habakkuk (1:13): “Your eyes are too pure to behold evil, and You cannot look on iniquity.”

By this is refuted the error of the Jews, who say in the Talmud that at times God sins and is cleansed from sin; and of the Luciferians, who say that God sinned in ejecting Lucifer.

Quotes from the First Book of Summa contra Gentiles, of Thomas Aquinas.

 

[inocente]

Then, dear friend, you still have a lot of reading to do, for God is not the source of evil, a statement both contrary to Scripture and contrary to reason.

Scripture likewise confirms this. For it is said in the canonic Epistle of John (I, 1:5): “God is light and in Him there is no darkness”; and in Job (34:10) it is written: “Far from God be wickedness; and iniquity from the Almighty.”

Isaiah raises some interesting questions about our understanding of God.

*I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

• Isaiah 45:7*

This seems to dispense with any duality - God is truly almighty and so absolutely everything comes from Him, whether we call it good or evil.

*Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself,
the God and Savior of Israel.

• Isaiah 45:15*

As Monsignor Georges Lemaître (who first proposed the big bang theory) pointed out, if we can’t see unmistakable evidence of God even at the big bang then God is still hiding Himself.

Points for cogitating over.

 

[Michael19682]

Isaiah raises some interesting questions about our understanding of God.

*I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

• Isaiah 45:7*

This seems to dispense with any duality - God is truly almighty and so absolutely everything comes from Him, whether we call it good or evil.

*Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself,
the God and Savior of Israel.

• Isaiah 45:15*

As Monsignor Georges Lemaître (who first proposed the big bang theory) pointed out, if we can’t see unmistakable evidence of God even at the big bang then God is still hiding Himself.

Points for cogitating over.

Disaster is provisional…
God’s Indomitable Love in Christ. 28* We know that all things work for good for those who love God,* who are called according to his purpose.​

Disaster as punishment is good, not evil, because it brings about conversion of spirit.
Disaster without restoration, recovery, rehabilitation of the spirit, that is evil and the work of Satan.
Remeber, when studying the OT, you can’t ignore its fulfillment, Jesus Chirst.

 

[inocente]

Disaster is provisional…
God’s Indomitable Love in Christ. 28* We know that all things work for good for those who love God,* who are called according to his purpose.​

Disaster as punishment is good, not evil, because it brings about conversion of spirit.
Disaster without restoration, recovery, rehabilitation of the spirit, that is evil and the work of Satan.
Remeber, when studying the OT, you can’t ignore its fulfillment, Jesus Chirst.

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous - Matt 5:45

Disasters also rain down indiscriminately on both the righteous and unrighteous. We might variously interpret something as good or evil, and so assign it to either God or Satan, but often we can’t know for sure. The Isaiah verse suggests it diminishes God not to accept Him as the Author of all, whatever our opinion about whether something is good or evil.

Not mainstream I know, just a point to ponder.

 

[R_C]

everything comes from Him, whether we call it good or evil.

That is very well stated!

God is infinite good, and everything He creates is very good, though partaking imperfectly in His perfect good. Evil is a non-essence, imperfect good, and always in good and accidental to good. Thus everything does come from Him, for only God is, and yet in Him is no evil, nor does He create or will evil, nor is He the source of evil.

 

[Michael19682]

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous - Matt 5:45

Disasters also rain down indiscriminately on both the righteous and unrighteous. We might variously interpret something as good or evil, and so assign it to either God or Satan, but often we can’t know for sure. The Isaiah verse suggests it diminishes God not to accept Him as the Author of all, whatever our opinion about whether something is good or evil.

Not mainstream I know, just a point to ponder.

Not necessarily so:

15For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,f 16to the latter an odor of death that leads to death, to the former an odor of life that leads to life. Who is qualified* for this?​

Shows relativity, you might say.