To what degree if any

[Mijoy2]

To what degree if any does God actively direct effect the outcome of our everyday activities?

We will hear Christians state emphatically things such as “It never ceases to amaze me how God works”, “Gods hand was at work”, “Thank God for …”, etc.

Typically these statements follow some fortunate event in thier life. Possibly after a near miss automobile accident, or the turn around of someones health for the better, etc.

A deacon in my parish during a homily one time talked of “How God works” when he discussed how he went to the Shrine of Chaplet of Divine Mercy and how events of the day worked out perfectly for him. If I recall he was short one ticket and somehow fel across one ticket right at the enterance.

Well tonight I was so excited about the prospect of getting home from work and going to Mass with my wife and daughter who is home from college for the week. As it turned out everything went wrong! A phone call from my boss got me off to a bit of a late start but normally there was still enough time to make it home. A traffic accident prevented me from making it in time by just 20 minutes. ERRRGGGGGGG. On the way home I happened across a church. I thought, ahhh this is God at work. As it turned out this particular church was conducting Mass a different time.

I heard Ted Turner ceased to believe in God when he prayed and prayed for his sister who was ill and she passed away. I heard of another awful story (although I forget the details) of some child who narrowly escaped death and his family attributed it to thier prayers and were delighted and joyful. Then shortly following the same child died in an accident.

My question: Does God intervene in our lives? Or did He design this world in a manner that happenstance would direct natural things and we were victim to whatever happens, good or bad?

Logically speaking it seems to me we cannot atribute to God good things that seem to arbitrarily happen unless we embrace His involvement when things go so wrong.

I am confused and find the words “that was Gods hand at work” very difficult.

 

[Liberian]

Mijoy2,

Philosophers have debated this for centuries, so please don’t expect a complete answer from me.

I believe that God has His finger on every subatomic particle in the universe. I also believe that He has given us free will, so He doesn’t control that. But the inanimate objects are definitely under His control.

I also believe that God causes what we call bad things as well as what we call good things. Our perspective is not the same as His, and what appears bad to us may turn out good after all. Isaiah quotes God as saying that He brings blessings and brings disaster. (He’s not the only agent at work, though; people can mess a lot of things up, and don’t forget that the devil is also prowling around like a roaring lion.)

To paraphrase a preacher I once heard, “if you have only sunshine the result is a desert.”

• Liberian

 

[svoboda]

Mijoy2:

Typically these statements follow some fortunate event in thier life. Possibly after a near miss automobile accident, or the turn around of someones health for the better, etc.

I was in a car accident once. I was not hurt, because I mine was not the main car in the accident, but another car involved was flattened and the person was taken away in an ambulance. Should I think that God saved me but did nothing for that person?

My question: Does God intervene in our lives? Or did He design this world in a manner that happenstance would direct natural things and we were victim to whatever happens, good or bad?

I don’t believe God deliberately alters nature for one purpose or another. If God intervenes it is through our conscience, our dispositions, by indirectly urging us to do good and and shun evil.

Think about the kind of thing that would be involved in an intervention of the kind you mention: God woudl have to take over people’s decision making and make them do different things, or he’d have to alter fundamental physical laws to make matter behave differently. Personally I don’t even know if I believe that God can do that.

Then again, I am not Catholic.

Logically speaking it seems to me we cannot atribute to God good things that seem to arbitrarily happen unless we embrace His involvement when things go so wrong.

Agreed, if God is going to bother helping someone get a ticket, why doesn’t he bother to save children from abuse? If he bothers to help one person heal, why let so many others die?

The state of the world as it is doesn’t support the idea of a God directly involved in our lives.

 

[otm]

As far as I know, the Church has never resolved the tension between two issues: free will, and divine intervention.

Pope John Paul 2 said, I believe, “there are no coincidences with God”, and one can argue back and forth about that. But one should not at the same time presume that all things that happen are specifically designed to happen that way by God; that crosses over the line of free will, and makes that to be nothing at all. Perhaps the issue is at times presuming that God specifically wills every act that happens, as opposed to His general will of final conclusions; but even that must take into consideration His creation of beings with free will and His willingness to accept that they may choose an end other than what He would have.

In other words, it may not have been God’s specifi will that the traffic accident happen and that you be delayed; that simply could have been the result of someone exercising their free will in a way that resulted in evil occuring (the accident), thus making you late. But God’s general will would be that you spend time with your daughter.

 

[awalt]

From what I have read over time, I have a little different conclusion. I guess we’ll have to ask God when we get to Heaven

Anyway -

(1) God created everything, and knows about everything He created.
(2) Part of what God created work on their own - wind, weather, heat, decay, you name it.
(3) God gave us free will to make choices, including good vs. evil.
(4) There is no Biblical evidence that God is a regular “micro manager”, with a hand in every little thing. If that was His intent, we would have seen more evidence of it in the Bible, the desires of God to have us freely turn to Him would be much less appealing (ie if everything is completely manipulated around us by God), and there would be no reason to have all these natural phenomenon mentioned in #2 doing what they do.

So what happens? I believe God let’s the mechanisms of the world that He created work - because that is part of what pleases Him about his creation. So there is a small chance for a typhoon every now and then, and it’s going to kill people. That’s life on earth in the devil’s playpen.

However, God also has the power and does intervene at times - when exactly he does that, there is no way to know. We also don’t know why He decides to intervene - is it prayer, love, some broader plan, etc.

I think this explanation makes the most sense to me, consistent with what God has revealed to us in the Bible. You may disagree!

 

[Mijoy2]

awalt:

I think this explanation makes the most sense to me, consistent with what God has revealed to us in the Bible. You may disagree!

Not at all. The responses are appreciated. I think that sometimes we get caught up in the philosophy of; if what we are doing or are attempting to do is -good-, we will inherently get assitance from God. However I guess that can’t work. If it did, it would imply that, if what we are doing or are attempting to do is evil, God will inhibit us. Which denies free will. Therefore He didn’t lend a hand in my getting church on time.

But it brings up the next logical question. Does or will God intervene at all? And if yes, when and how much? As a couple of you have illustrated this is a mystery. Which it certainly is.

I recall when one of the kidnapped victims in Iraq time was running out, I happened to be going for a run that day. Berg (I recall his name was) was on my mind heavily. I decided to pray Hail Marys throughout my 5 mile run. The next day Berg was beheaded and video taped for the world to see. One can’t help but wonder if efforts of prayer to assist others holds any significance at all. We pray and pray and pray but have no way of knowing if our prayers helped in any fashion at all. Yet we feel compelled to keep praying. We explain (and maybe with good cause, that isn’t the point though) this away by saying that God allowed the evil to happen so that a better good can come from it. Yet there is no evidence that a better good did or will come of it.

I suppose that is why it is called faith. But I sure wish there were some manner of measuring this. Some good answer we could speak of when it came time to defend the faith or attempt to evangelize. Or even to improve our own faith.

 

[hurst]

Mijoy2:

I think that sometimes we get caught up in the philosophy of; if what we are doing or are attempting to do is -good-, we will inherently get assitance from God. However I guess that can’t work. If it did, it would imply that, if what we are doing or are attempting to do is evil, God will inhibit us. Which denies free will.

The point is not whether we are to inherently get assistance for doing something good, as much as we are to desire God’s assistance in carrying out His will. “Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.

I think what many people misunderstand is that being a Christian (a Catholic) means belonging to God. We are “no longer our own”. We live not to ourselves. We are in the service of God. We really should not be wishing for things on our own terms, though there is nothing at all wrong for desiring the means for our natural sustenance. And we must desire our own salvation.

Mijoy2:

But it brings up the next logical question. Does or will God intervene at all? And if yes, when and how much? As a couple of you have illustrated this is a mystery. Which it certainly is.

It is strange to wonder whether God intervenes when He is the one keeping everything in existence in the first place. He gives us what we need, and if we fail to find it, we can ask for further help, which He will give according to our faith, to our needs, and to His Will. In a sense, if God did not intervene, we could not move an inch. “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.” (Matt 10:29)

Mijoy2:

I recall when one of the kidnapped victims in Iraq time was running out, I happened to be going for a run that day. Berg (I recall his name was) was on my mind heavily. I decided to pray Hail Marys throughout my 5 mile run. The next day Berg was beheaded and video taped for the world to see. One can’t help but wonder if efforts of prayer to assist others holds any significance at all.

But it does! The very fact that you prayed and entrusted a request in favor of someone else was both an act of trust and an act of charity. It has much value, a value that will last forever, like a good memory. Concering the saints, “their works follow them” (Apoc 14:13). We can only take our love and prayers with us to heaven.

Mijoy2:

We pray and pray and pray but have no way of knowing if our prayers helped in any fashion at all. Yet we feel compelled to keep praying. We explain (and maybe with good cause, that isn’t the point though) this away by saying that God allowed the evil to happen so that a better good can come from it. Yet there is no evidence that a better good did or will come of it.

The evidence is in the virtue you practised as a result of the trial. It is for the exercise of this virtue that God allows trials in our lives.

Mijoy2:

I suppose that is why it is called faith. But I sure wish there were some manner of measuring this. Some good answer we could speak of when it came time to defend the faith or attempt to evangelize. Or even to improve our own faith.

Faith is measured by how much we are willing to give ourselves as a result of it. It is shown by our good works of charity to honor God.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

They will know we are Christians by our love. Unfortunately, our witness is often very cloudy.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Our witness is not something that will force people to believe. Not everyone who met Jesus believed or accepted Him, and Jesus did not force anyone to accept Him, though He pointed out that those who do not will suffer eternal punishment.

hurst