To what extent does Chance determine the course of events?

[tonyrey]

Not at all, to a certain extent or entirely? Please give a reason for your reply…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not at all. All things are predictable in the upper-realm of the spiritual world, which we are governed by. The theory of evolution is a scam, and the accent of man did not occur by chance.

 

[tonyrey]

Not at all. All things are predictable in the upper-realm of the spiritual world, which we are governed by. The theory of evolution is a scam, and the accent of man did not occur by chance.

What about the physical world, Robert? Do you believe natural disasters are caused by God deliberately?

 

[Robert_Sock]

What about the physical world, Robert? Do you believe natural disasters are caused by God deliberately?

Don’t have a strong opinion whether natural disasters are by chance or not, but I think I can “see” where in the upper-realm of spirituality there exist complete order.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

To what extent does Chance determine the course of events?

Not at all, to a certain extent or entirely? Please give a reason for your reply…

Provided with no definition of “chance” I’m going to infer what I think to be an applicable definition based on your past usage of the word. If this is not the appropriate definition please provide one.
American Heritage Dictionary:

Chance - The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause.

When some one is talking about a system with an element of “chance” the person is usually talking about a system for which he or she has incomplete information or inadequate resources for determining an outcome. There’s a hidden bit of perception mixed in with the question. Let’s take solar and lunar eclipses as an example.

Some one that has very little knowledge on eclipses might see them as something that happens randomly by chance. Without enough observation some one might start to notice patterns in the occurances of eclipses but because of variances of the patterns might see a small element of chance in their occurences. Some one with an understanding or orbital mechanics and with information concerning the position, velocities, and mass of the earth, moon, sun, Jupiter, and Venus can calculate the when the next eclipses will happen for thousands of years and see them as being deterministic with little to no elements of chance involved.

Another example is hurricanes (or typhoon or what ever the local labeling for it happens to be). Before people had the ability to monitor weather conditions at various places on the globe hurricanes could be seen as happening by chance and out of the blue. In modern times we see them forming and make some projections on where they will go, but the understanding of earths weather is incomplete, so the pathway of the hurricane may be described as having some dependencies on chance. But once again chance here is the result of our limited understanding.

Getting back to your original question the extent to which “change” determines the course of events is going to be heavily dependent on the perception, understanding, knowledge, and resources available to the person observing the course of events.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Provided with no definition of “chance” I’m going to infer what I think to be an applicable definition based on your past usage of the word. If this is not the appropriate definition please provide one.

When some one is talking about a system with an element of “chance” the person is usually talking about a system for which he or she has incomplete information or inadequate resources for determining an outcome. There’s a hidden bit of perception mixed in with the question. Let’s take solar and lunar eclipses as an example.

Some one that has very little knowledge on eclipses might see them as something that happens randomly by chance. Without enough observation some one might start to notice patterns in the occurances of eclipses but because of variances of the patterns might see a small element of chance in their occurences. Some one with an understanding or orbital mechanics and with information concerning the position, velocities, and mass of the earth, moon, sun, Jupiter, and Venus can calculate the when the next eclipses will happen for thousands of years and see them as being deterministic with little to no elements of chance involved.

Another example is hurricanes (or typhoon or what ever the local labeling for it happens to be). Before people had the ability to monitor weather conditions at various places on the globe hurricanes could be seen as happening by chance and out of the blue. In modern times we see them forming and make some projections on where they will go, but the understanding of earths weather is incomplete, so the pathway of the hurricane may be described as having some dependencies on chance. But once again chance here is the result of our limited understanding.

Getting back to your original question the extent to which “change” determines the course of events is going to be heavily dependent on the perception, understanding, knowledge, and resources available to the person observing the course of events.

By “resources available” I think you’re obscuring a major issue, which is that the issue of control and guidance. You can understand exactly how much chance events have to occur, or what factors there are that will create an occurance, but if you cannot/will not effect them, they are still happening by chance. In fact, you can understand all the factors in a local occurance, but unless you can influence them, or do influence them, they are still chance occurances.

Mind you, even if you have the control, there is still the issue of the chance that you would have to be in such a position, the right place at the right time etc. which would also be governed by chance, or by God, since I suppose God can bypass chance - being the epitome of being with opportunity for absolute control. Knowing something will occur would not stop it occurring to some degree by chance unless you control all the contingent events all the way back to inception of them

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

Not at all, to a certain extent or entirely? Please give a reason for your reply…

To a small extent.

Benjamin Franklin wrote that Diligence is the Mother of Good Luck. I got my first big break in a competitive industry by helping someone who it turned out knew someone. Lucky! I got another break in a cold industry by creating a killer portfolio and calling over seventy people when “nobody was hiring newcomers”. Lucky! Chance plays a role in what the weather is like, and maybe whether I reach the New World today or next week, but by and large I’m the one plotting the course and captaining my ship. When I encounter an obstacle, I ask ask myself how I can overcome it? I do not become dejected and give up. I am constantly amazed at the capacity of humans to do incredible things! I am almost as amazed at how many humans don’t recognize that fact, have even doubted my modest achievements. Live and learn.

 

[Hokomai]

In human affairs, to the extent to which we are the products of our biology, chance at least determines each of us. Had my mother said to my father “Have you let the cat out” shortly before I was conceived, a different sperm would have met the egg, and I would be different. And so on back through each of our ancestors, including the ancestors responsible for the genetic modifications that created species. Congratulations on existing!

 

[Mystic_Banana]

To a small extent.

Benjamin Franklin wrote that Diligence is the Mother of Good Luck. I got my first big break in a competitive industry by helping someone who it turned out knew someone. Lucky! I got another break in a cold industry by creating a killer portfolio and calling over seventy people when “nobody was hiring newcomers”. Lucky! Chance plays a role in what the weather is like, and maybe whether I reach the New World today or next week, but by and large I’m the one plotting the course and captaining my ship. When I encounter an obstacle, I ask ask myself how I can overcome it? I do not become dejected and give up. I am constantly amazed at the capacity of humans to do incredible things! I am almost as amazed at how many humans don’t recognize that fact, have even doubted my modest achievements. Live and learn.

I don’t doubt your achievements, but I doubt you’ve achieved modesty!

I do, however, doubt you’re admitting (to yourself and to others) the role your upbringing and social environment had on you… free will can achieve all you have apparently managed, I suspect, but circumstances make it easier or harder to achieve what, capitalistically speaking, is a successful situation.

As a matter of interest, do you have an “I was raised by pigeons in a squalorous toilet” style story to further embelish your claims to fame?

 

[Mystic_Banana]

In human affairs, to the extent to which we are the products of our biology, chance at least determines each of us. Had my mother said to my father “Have you let the cat out” shortly before I was conceived, a different sperm would have met the egg, and I would be different. And so on back through each of our ancestors, including the ancestors responsible for the genetic modifications that created species. Congratulations on existing!

Possibly not. The rest might all have been duds, except for Mr super fertile Spermster :takeoff:

To say your ancestors were responsible for genetic modifications that created species is like saying clouds are responsible for water… if not more far fetched, whether the conservative conception of evolution explains us or not…

Really, it was nothing

 

[someperson555]

Not at all. All things are predictable in the upper-realm of the spiritual world, which we are governed by. The theory of evolution is a scam, and the accent of man did not occur by chance.

wrong wrong wrong. evolution is TRUE. the catholic church accepts evolution as a possible theory. we are not fundamentalist rednecks. this is actually an atheist straw man used against religion. they attack us on the false assumption that “all christians believe in creation”. this is very wrong, and in fact, no intelligent christian should believe in creationism. the old testament (genesis) is a METAPHOR. it is not supposed to be taken literally.
and not literally everything is planned out. that would be predestination which catholicism rejects.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

I don’t doubt your achievements, but I doubt you’ve achieved modesty!

True! I meant the achievements were modest, not my approach to achieving them nor selling them to open more doors.

I do, however, doubt you’re admitting (to yourself and to others) the role your upbringing and social environment had on you… free will can achieve all you have apparently managed, I suspect, but circumstances make it easier or harder to achieve what, capitalistically speaking, is a successful situation.

As a matter of interest, do you have an “I was raised by pigeons in a squalorous toilet” style story to further embelish your claims to fame?

I was speaking after birth. You almost have to win the lottery to be born at all!

I do have modest beginnings, but being born in America, my family was not among the poorest 20% of the world. For example, I had access to drinkable water!

 

[tonyrey]

Don’t have a strong opinion whether natural disasters are by chance or not, but I think I can “see” where in the upper-realm of spirituality there exist complete order.

Would you agree that God does not **will **natural disasters but permits them?

 

[tonyrey]

Provided with no definition of “chance” I’m going to infer what I think to be an applicable definition based on your past usage of the word. If this is not the appropriate definition please provide one.

When some one is talking about a system with an element of “chance” the person is usually talking about a system for which he or she has incomplete information or inadequate resources for determining an outcome. There’s a hidden bit of perception mixed in with the question. Let’s take solar and lunar eclipses as an example.

Some one that has very little knowledge on eclipses might see them as something that happens randomly by chance. Without enough observation some one might start to notice patterns in the occurrences of eclipses but because of variances of the patterns might see a small element of chance in their occurrences. Some one with an understanding or orbital mechanics and with information concerning the position, velocities, and mass of the earth, moon, sun, Jupiter, and Venus can calculate the when the next eclipses will happen for thousands of years and see them as being deterministic with little to no elements of chance involved.

Another example is hurricanes (or typhoon or what ever the local labeling for it happens to be). Before people had the ability to monitor weather conditions at various places on the globe hurricanes could be seen as happening by chance and out of the blue. In modern times we see them forming and make some projections on where they will go, but the understanding of earths weather is incomplete, so the pathway of the hurricane may be described as having some dependencies on chance. But once again chance here is the result of our limited understanding.

Getting back to your original question the extent to which “change” determines the course of events is going to be heavily dependent on the perception, understanding, knowledge, and resources available to the person observing the course of events.

Thanks for your answer - with which I agree.

I am using “chance” in the sense of “unintended coincidences”…

 

[tonyrey]

In human affairs, to the extent to which we are the products of our biology, chance at least determines each of us. Had my mother said to my father “Have you let the cat out” shortly before I was conceived, a different sperm would have met the egg, and I would be different. And so on back through each of our ancestors, including the ancestors responsible for the genetic modifications that created species. Congratulations on existing!

Thanks for an example of an unintended coincidence!

But we can’t rule out the possibility of divine intervention - given that you are here.

 

[tonyrey]

To a small extent.

Benjamin Franklin wrote that Diligence is the Mother of Good Luck. I got my first big break in a competitive industry by helping someone who it turned out knew someone. Lucky! I got another break in a cold industry by creating a killer portfolio and calling over seventy people when “nobody was hiring newcomers”. Lucky! Chance plays a role in what the weather is like, and maybe whether I reach the New World today or next week, but by and large I’m the one plotting the course and captaining my ship. When I encounter an obstacle, I ask ask myself how I can overcome it? I do not become dejected and give up. I am constantly amazed at the capacity of humans to do incredible things! I am almost as amazed at how many humans don’t recognize that fact, have even doubted my modest achievements. Live and learn.

You have made good points about the extent to which we can offset the element of chance but one misfortune could have ended your life even before you were born!
Thank God it didn’t…

 

[tonyrey]

By “resources available” I think you’re obscuring a major issue, which is that the issue of control and guidance. You can understand exactly how much chance events have to occur, or what factors there are that will create an occurance, but if you cannot/will not effect them, they are still happening by chance. In fact, you can understand all the factors in a local occurance, but unless you can influence them, or do influence them, they are still chance occurances.

Mind you, even if you have the control, there is still the issue of the chance that you would have to be in such a position, the right place at the right time etc. which would also be governed by chance, or by God, since I suppose God can bypass chance - being the epitome of being with opportunity for absolute control. Knowing something will occur would not stop it occurring to some degree by chance unless you control all the contingent events all the way back to inception of them

Very good points! God can intervene at any stage but it would defeat the purpose of creating the laws of nature if he constantly suspended them.

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks for an example of an unintended coincidence!

But we can’t rule out the possibility of divine intervention - given that you are here.

Well, I guess if there is a God, I would hope he wanted me here!

 

[tonyrey]

*Thanks for an example of an unintended coincidence!

Why not? From a selfish point of view I wouldn’t be able to have discussions with you if you weren’t! I’m sure there are others who would miss you more than a little…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

By “resources available” I think you’re obscuring a major issue, which is that the issue of control and guidance.

I’m using “resources” as an abstraction for other things that may be necessary for some one to predict a system. It could be paper and pencil, or a calculator, or a ruler, or time… For example even if I know of a math model that is useful for predicting what will occur within a system if that math model contains something like the sine of a square root then I would either need a calculator or more time to make that prediction. If both are unavailable then my ability to predict is impaired and the outcome would perceivably be a chance (unknown or unpredicted) outcome to me.