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Anna_Scott
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gurney,
I really hope more people will post on this thread. This is such an interesting topic, and I’m still sorting through this myself. I would like to see more opinions.
Anna
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I really hope more people will post on this thread. This is such an interesting topic, and I’m still sorting through this myself. I would like to see more opinions.
Anna
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Agreed, Anna. You and I are both in much the same place on our journeys. We have about the same dilemnas and feelings as well as reservations and caution. We also have the same desire to do right by the Lord. I hope more will contribute. I enjoy the topic, too. I do think that my verbage causes bias in the survey however. Using the word “Aquinas” any time in this forum will lead to some bias. He is trusted and respected to such a high degree by most, is known as the intellectual titan of the Church, and I think many would just go along with his theory because, “hey, it’s Aquinas!” 
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Roman_Catholic_1
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Thank you Edwin I will give *The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe *another read when I get home. This time with a different aspect of the book to look at.
God bless you
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Gurney,Agreed, Anna. You and I are both in much the same place on our journeys. We have about the same dilemnas and feelings as well as reservations and caution. We also have the same desire to do right by the Lord. I hope more will contribute. I enjoy the topic, too. I do think that my verbage causes bias in the survey however. Using the word “Aquinas” any time in this forum will lead to some bias. He is trusted and respected to such a high degree by most, is known as the intellectual titan of the Church, and I think many would just go along with his theory because, “hey, it’s Aquinas!”
I think you are right. We are both in similar places in our journeys. Though, you are much farther ahead in your studies of Christian history.
I think at this point, I would be more inclined to agree with The Christus Victor view; but that is said without an in depth study of the ECF’s and correlation to Holy Scripture.
I hope more people will post their views, and cite the sources for conclusions on the issue. That would certainly be very helpful to me.
Anna
P.S. I do think DarkNight makes a very compelling argument for his views.
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gurneyhalleck1
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Can some of you folks show this thread some more love? I’d love to hear more opinions about Atonement? A few of us are working out our views on this and your (name removed by moderator)ut would be awesome!
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Hesychios
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- bump -
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Marc_Anthony
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I love the Christus Victor theory.
Eastern Theology always struck me as much more optimistic than Western.
Eastern Theology always struck me as much more optimistic than Western.
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gurneyhalleck1
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gurneyhalleck1
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Hi Michael,
I’d love for you to weigh in on this if you have a minute or two. I’d like to hear people’s reasoning behind their choices and the Scriptural and historical basis for it. I always enjoy your sound reasoning. God bless!
I’d love for you to weigh in on this if you have a minute or two. I’d like to hear people’s reasoning behind their choices and the Scriptural and historical basis for it. I always enjoy your sound reasoning. God bless!
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cheese_sdc
Guest
I’d love to hear of any view of the crucifixion that doesn’t sound like this:
God gets so mad at humanity that the only way his anger can be appeased is to kill his own son.
God gets so mad at humanity that the only way his anger can be appeased is to kill his own son.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well I think I can safely pencil you in for not being a penal substitution fan
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Soldier_X
Guest
I think we’d prefer to word it more like this: Humanity willingly brought death upon itself, and when God saw that they couldn’t save themselves from that death, he suffered it in their place (even knowing that most of 'em didn’t care about what He did).
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cheese_sdc
Guest
To my mind, this is the same thing as me doing the following:
Spanking my daughter when the neighbor’s dog deficates on their carpet. How does that illuminate the supposed justice of God?
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Soldier_X
Guest
It’s nothing at all like that
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Penal Substitution and Satisfaction Theory both state that man sinned, but Jesus bore the punishment for that sin. Therefore, under these theologies, man sinned (much like the neighbor’s dog) but instead of the dog (the rightful agent of the transgression) being held responsible, someone completely outside of the problem gets punished.It’s nothing at all like that
I did review the Christus Victor theology, and that shows some promise… but Penal Substitution and Satisfaction Theory…
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Anna_Scott
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**Marc Anthony,
I, too, would love for you to elaborate. I spent most of my 55 years viewing the crucifixion through the lens of penal substitution; but have been questioning that the last few years. At this point, I’m leaning more toward “Christus Victor.”
I realize there are many Scriptures that point to the theory of “penal substitution.” However, I can’t quite reconcile them to the many passages pointing to God’s preference of mercy, rather than sacrifice. I don’t understand “mercy” in terms of sacrificing the innocent for the wicked. That is merciful to the wicked; but certainly not merciful to the innocent.
I also have trouble reconciling “penal substitution” with the concept of the Trinity. It’s like God sending Himself to sacrifice Himself to Himself, when God is immortal (I’m not doing an add for the movie “Religulous”-which I never saw, btw.) I realize Christ is the Son of God, who came as both man and God.
My questions may bring on an onslaught of criticism; but I need to ask them. These are some of the things that keep me awake at night.
**
Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Jeremiah 7: 22 **For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. **23But this command I gave them: **‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’
**
**Even in the N.T. we find Jesus quoting **Hosea 6:6:
Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.**
One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than "all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
**This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
Also, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins. Not once did he tell those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.
In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins**.
**Luke 3: **2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
**I welcome all help in understanding the atonement.
Anna**
Edited to add P.S.
There is also the question, “If God is God and He makes the rules, why does anyone have to die?” There are no laws higher than God.
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cheese_sdc
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Allow me to clarify - Penal Substitution and Satisfaction Theory are some of the ideas that lead me to leave Christianity. I’d welcome a different lens to view these events.
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Contarini
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First of all, your daughter is not a dog. It isn’t even her dog.
Jesus, on the other hand, is human. By taking on our nature, He took on Himself the just consequences of our sin, namely death. Saying that “God punished Jesus in our place” is at best inadequate and at worst blasphemous.
I would urge you to read these two patristic treatments of the subject:
Athanasius, On the Incarnation
Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism (sometimes called Address on Religious Instruction), esp. chaps. 5-8 and 21-24 (you could jump to ch. 24 and work backwards if you want to, since the famous “fish-hook” metaphor is not a bad place to start, and then you can read the earlier stuff to figure out how he gets there).
My own view is a fusion of these two. I find Gregory’s position quirkier and in many ways more appealing, but I think it’s compatible with Athanasius and that Athanasius’s position is a more solid and central one. It’s also somewhat closer to penal substitution, so you may find more that you object to there.
Note that there are many Christians who take a position even further away from penal substitution than that of Athanasius or perhaps even Gregory; I hear J. Denny Weaver’s The Nonviolent Atonement mentioned as a good exposition of such a view.
Edwin
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Anna_Scott
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Edwin,
I appreciate your posting these links. I will take some time to read them.
I’ve read a couple of books by N.T. Wright; but I’m having trouble clearly identifying his view of the atonement, even when reading about the crucifixion and atonement. Maybe it’s just me. Anyway, could you shed some light on N.T. Wright’s view of the atonement?
Anna
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Contarini
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I would put him broadly in the “Christus Victor” camp, although this is informed both by his view of Jesus as completing “Israel’s story” and doing what God intended Israel to do, and his evangelical Anglican background, which makes him want to connect his view somehow to penal substitution.
He wrote a book on evil and the Atonement a few years ago. I think I skimmed it–at least I have some memory of the main thesis more or less, but not the details.
Edwin
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