To Zen or not ?

[Fa_Chan]

Buddism is not only a religion but a sect of Hinduism, Pagan to the core.
No, it is not possible to serve two masters if you are a Good Catholic. and if you are a Catholic and you claim to practice buddhism, then you are in error as to being a Good Catholic. A buddhist can claim any belief, but making the claim to be Catholic while praticing another religion doesn’t make one a good Catholic, but a Catholic in error.

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

I asked you before where you got your information about Buddhism yet you haven’t yet. Other Buddhists have responded as to what we believe and yet you still post things like this. I don’t know where you got your information but it is simply incorrect.

Buddhism is not a sect of Hinduism. It never was, never will be. The Buddha rejected the caste system and lead people into a new way of living. He did not postulate a supreme being, nor encourage practices to gods. Your remark about Buddhism being pagan is even more remarkably off the mark. How can it be pagan if it doesn’t claim that matter or people are divine, but simply says we are all from the same source. Get some better info about Buddhism before you start telling people what it is or is not.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[reh12345]

exactly my point. i can be a good catholic and still obtain the consolation of philosophy. we must love god what men have written they have written. you will notice that the church exercises
a continuing search for the real words of the bible. there are continual revisions as scholarship reveals new aspects of His teaching. to say that “we know” in the scientific sense of that
word is error. what we have is faith. the thomases among us may need to put their fingers in the wounds, but for the rest of us faith is the only answer.

let us remember that this church that claimed a loving god would send one of his children to hell for having a hotdog on friday,or for merely enter a protestant church.
the church held in the 1870 that a belief in democrasy was a sin worthy of excommunication. and be no so ready to utter moral certitudes. the jews of italy found the church of little protection against the nazis
yes what men have written they have written
we see through a glass darkly we are as a tinkling symbol especially when we beat the drum of moral certainty.
cast out the beam in your own eye and take seriously the proposition that we should take our selve to seriously

 

[Melchior]

There are some who believe that Catholicism is not the only choice as far as a religion is concerned and that Zen Buddhism would have been closer to the spirituality that Christ lived and taught.

I am busy reading some interesting writings by the late
Thomas Merton - Zen and the Birds of Appetite and Mystics and the Zen Masters and wondered if anyone else has explored Zen Buddhism at this level and agrees that Catholicism does not take one all the way…?

It seems that Thomas Merton found that the top heavy religious system, had some serious flaws in as much as granting the true truth of Christ and that it was bogged down with heavy rituals and creeds that would never be able to bring about the type of honest to goodness freedom that his mystical counterparts in Zen were living from day to day.

Mystified…Pophead.


:coffeeread: How Zen found me

Anyone who thinks the Christ of the New Testament had a zen type spirituality has no concept of the Hebrew world he was a part of. A few of his teachings taken in isolation and a hollywood vision of some hollow eyed, detached guru is the only relation one can make, and it is an extremely superficial one.

 

[Ahimsa]

…hollywood vision of some hollow eyed, detached guru…

No Guru worth his or her salt – whether Buddhist, Hindu, Sufi, Jewish, or Christian – is hollow-eyed, nor ‘detached’.

 

[reh12345]

Anyone who thinks the Christ of the New Testament had a zen type spirituality has no concept of the Hebrew world he was a part of. A few of his teachings taken in isolation and a hollywood vision of some hollow eyed, detached guru is the only relation one can make, and it is an extremely superficial one.

stop begging the question. nobody said christ was a zen buddist

if you went to a jesuit university you must have gotten some smattering of logic, please don’t insult our intelligence with sophistry

 

[rossum]

Buddism is not only a religion but a sect of Hinduism

Not only do you need to learn more about Zen, you also need to learn more about Buddhism as a whole. Buddhism is no more a sect of Hinduism than Christianity is a sect of Judaism. The relation of Buddhism to Hinduism is similar to the relation of Christianity to Judaism.

is not possible to serve two masters if you are a Good Catholic. and if you are a Catholic and you claim to practice buddhism, then you are in error as to being a Good Catholic.

Many parts of Buddhism are also perfectly good Catholicism:* You shall not kill.

• You shall not steal.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not bear false witness.
• Love your neighbour as yourself.

are all perfectly good Buddhism.

You might also want to look at meditation, which involves sitting and breathing - neither of which are against Catholicism.

A buddhist can claim any belief,

You are incorrect, not all beliefs are within Buddhism.

rossum

 

[DebChris]

Good post. I just had to comment on the comment about going into “nothingness”. That’s not the case in Buddhism. Nirvana is the extinction of concepts and judgements, not the extinction of the person. The energy that was “you” becomes something else. It doesn’t cease to exist. Energy never truly dies, it just moves from place to place.

Peace…

Fa Chan

John the Baptist said,“I must decrease that he(Christ) might increase.” In the Song of the Bird by Anthony DeMello can be found the story of the salt doll. The salt doll searched everywhere he could to find himself. Finally he reached the ocean and as he entered the water, he said, “Now I know who I am.”
St. John of the Cross in Dark Night of the Soul describes this becoming one with God as a log that is ignited until there is nothing left of the log, only the fire.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. Apart from me you can do nothing.” My faith is entirely dependent on Christ in whom I can do all things.

 

[Fa_Chan]

John the Baptist said,“I must decrease that he(Christ) might increase.” In the Song of the Bird by Anthony DeMello can be found the story of the salt doll. The salt doll searched everywhere he could to find himself. Finally he reached the ocean and as he entered the water, he said, “Now I know who I am.”
St. John of the Cross in Dark Night of the Soul describes this becoming one with God as a log that is ignited until there is nothing left of the log, only the fire.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. Apart from me you can do nothing.” My faith is entirely dependent on Christ in whom I can do all things.

I liked what you posted. I’m not sure I get your message as it related to my post. I think the example of the salt doll is exactly what Buddhism teaches. And I think what John said (one of my favorite Biblical quotes) is true to Buddhism too. I think we are on the right track. I like St. John of the Cross too, by the way.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[DebChris]

I once read about a meeting between Buddhist priests and Catholic priests. When they engaged in conversation, neither understood the other. On the other hand, when Buddhist monks and Catholic monks met, they understood each other instantly.
For Benedictine monks the day is balanced between work and prayer. They take a scripture passage for Lectio Divina to meditate upon throughout the day. Much of their time is spent in silence. There is an understanding that prayer is more than recitation of long prayers. Rather it is a two way conversation. Scripture says “Be still and know that I am God.” In the silence, God comes to dwell more fully within my heart and I am able to hear his whisper.
In an intimate relationship, often more is spoken in silence than with words. Jesus desires an intimate relationship with each of us. Within this relationship the sacrifice of the Cross becomes more tangible and the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, more desirable. When Jesus said to take up your cross and follow after, he also gave a promise that anyone who gave up mother, father, brother, or sister for his sake would discover who he is.

 

[Bennie_P]

bhuddism is not a sect of anything any more that confusionism is
is a sect of any other religion.it is simply a philosophic system related to western thought as are plato and aristotle. the stoic marcus arellius was a stoic and was well respected the church because the church understood the difference between philosohy and religion. the church has always respected and incorporated philosophic thought. the organization of the church is taken directly from plato’s republic.

I’m going into a lot of discussion on this for it is a waste of time, but for your consideration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Hinduism

This is just a simple answer, the idea that buddhism is a sect of Hinduism is not a new idea, nor an unorthodox idea, though some may dispute it. Another problem with buddhism, for a religion were it has the aim is self-annilhilation there so many ways to become non-self you get lost from all the wrong and false intellectual gobbly-gook. there is no dinfinitive authority. So you become your own authority or enslaved to a guru that can use bigger and stranger words and make them sound important enough that they just have to be true.

Some scholars are of the opinion that Buddhism should be regarded as “reformed Hinduism”,[45] and many Hindus believe that Buddhism is a sect of Hinduism. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan has claimed that the Buddha did not look upon himself as an innovator, but only a restorer of the way of the Upanishads,[46] despite the fact that the Buddha did not accept the Upanishads, viewing them as comprising a pretentious tradition, foreign to his paradigm.[47]

Alan Watts wrote the following:Being a Hindu really involves living in India. Because of the differences of climate, or arts, crafts, and technology, you cannot be a Hindu in the full sense in Japan or in the United States. Buddhism is Hinduism stripped for export. The Buddha was a reformer in the highest sense: someone who wants to go to the original form, or to re-form it for the needs of a certain time…Buddha is the man who woke up, who discovered who he really was. The crucial issue wherein Buddhism differs from Hinduism is that it doesn’t say who you are; it has no idea, no concept. I emphasize the words idea and concept. It has no idea and no concept of God because Buddhism is not interested in concepts, it is interested in direct experience only.[58]

Just because one rejects the religion and culture of thier birth doesn’t make one enlighten. That is the danger of “ex” Christians trying to become experts of wrong choice, they reject light for darkness and call it wisdom.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/HinduSwastika.svg/50px-HinduSwastika.svg.png

I have always thought buddhism was a not a religion of envangelization? and it taught tolerance of belief and - patience?

 

[Bennie_P]

There is a book by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh called, “Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as brothers” which I read and in it he explains similar concepts in Buddhism and Christianity that you might find interesting. I would have to find my copy of it and see exactly what the quotes were from it. It’s a good read for anyone interested in the parallels between the two faiths.Peace…

Fa Chan

More for your consideration
Are Jesus and Buddha Brothers?
If so, there’s a serious family feud.

Shortly before the Holy Father’s visit to St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1979, the Dalai Lama was greeted there. A monsignor in the receiving line recalls his encounter with the Buddhist patriarch: The Dalai Lama approached him, gazed into his eyes, and queried, “Father, do you know the difference between you and me?”

“No, Your Holiness,” replied the monsignor.

“You believe in a personal God,” the Dalai Lama observed, “and I do not.”

This, above all, marks the difference between Christians and Buddhists. Beyond the rhetoric of “peace,” “compatibility,” and “the way,” there remains one profound difference between Buddha and Jesus: Jesus is God; Buddha is not.

"Father, forgive them, for they not what they do."
Francisco De Zurbaran c. 1632-4

The perennial teachings of the Catholic Church and the Buddhist sangha are inherently incompatible. Whereas God remains completely other, distinct from his creation, higher Buddhist discourse rejects the possibility of any such duality. There can be no Creator/creature distinction in Buddhism.*

From an apologetic perspective, dialogue with a Buddhist is hindered almost from the start, as the two great philosophical tools of Christianity—ontology and epistemology—are discarded in Buddhist discourse. That is, if existence itself is untenable, how can creation be proven? If creation is untenable, how can God be proven to exist? So it is vital when entering into dialogue with a Buddhist to understand Buddhist objections to Christian beliefs. In the end, we should remember that the Council of Nicaea taught that men must have one thing before truly becoming a member of the body of Christ: faith.*

Note to Catholics and other Christians, there is a endless source on many topics for us right here at Catholic Answers just check out the library do searchs on many topics -

 

[reh12345]

stop trying to reorient the question. if a buddist does not believe in a personal god does not mean that all buddist do not.
your implication that the dali lama speaks for anyone but himself is absurd. the is not the pope and he is not infalliable in matters of faith. by attempting to beg the question you are showing disrespect for everyone in the dicussion. if you don’t know what begging a question, find a logic text and look it up

 

[LilyM]

Many parts of Buddhism are also perfectly good Catholicism:* You shall not kill.

• You shall not steal.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not bear false witness.
• Love your neighbour as yourself.

are all perfectly good Buddhism.

They are also perfectly good common sense and adhered to by many an atheist as well. Doesn’t mean someone can honestly call themselves both Christian and atheist.

You might also want to look at meditation, which involves sitting and breathing - neither of which are against Catholicism.

Not just sitting and breathing though - mental processes necessarily occur as well. If THOSE are oriented other than towards Christ and God the Father then it cannot be called Christian meditation.

Of course meditation can actually be used for secular purposes as well (creative visualisation and so on). While these are fine, they can’t be rightly called Christian meditation.

You are incorrect, not all beliefs are within Buddhism.

:nope: they sure aren’t

 

[Abraxsis]

What you said about Jesus and Zen Buddism almost sums up what Gnostic christians say. basically, that Jesus showed the path to the true Godhead and heaven if you understand his true teachings. Salvation comes from gnosis and a death and resurrection of the spirit.

 

[Ahimsa]

Shortly before the Holy Father’s visit to St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1979, the Dalai Lama was greeted there. A monsignor in the receiving line recalls his encounter with the Buddhist patriarch: The Dalai Lama approached him, gazed into his eyes, and queried, “Father, do you know the difference between you and me?”

“No, Your Holiness,” replied the monsignor.

“You believe in a personal God,” the Dalai Lama observed, “and I do not.”

This, above all, marks the difference between Christians and Buddhists. Beyond the rhetoric of “peace,” “compatibility,” and “the way,” there remains one profound difference between Buddha and Jesus: Jesus is God; Buddha is not.

Of course, this begs the ultimate question “what is a ‘personal God’?” What are its characteristics, traits, and distinguishing features? What does it mean to “be a person”? How is a “person” different from a “non-person”?

 

[notself]

LilyM;

Not just sitting and breathing though - mental processes necessarily occur as well. If THOSE are oriented other than towards Christ and God the Father then it cannot be called Christian meditation.

In the most practiced Buddhist meditation, the mind is concentrated on the breath. One concentrates on the space just below the nose and feels the inhalation and the exhalation. When a thought arises, one observes that one is thinking and then returns to the breath. Thoughts arise and fall away. Only the concentration on the breath is maintained. It is quite different than Christian meditation on a religous topic.

The second most common Buddhist meditation is on Loving Kindness for oneself, for family, friends, enemies, and all beings. The mind is focused on feeling compassion.

Of course meditation can actually be used for secular purposes as well (creative visualisation and so on). While these are fine, they can’t be rightly called Christian meditation.

Very true.

 

[reh12345]

you sip at the well of knowledge and think you can speak ex catherdra. wikiapedia is just a body of opinion it is hardly a definitive source. that is it is not a peer review work. i have read most of what watts wrote. watts is not a theologian.his observations are intended to enlighten but not to totally reveal, watts offfers us a hitchhiker guide to spirituality. you are quoting him out of context.

 

[notself]

you sip at the well of knowledge and think you can speak ex catherdra. wikiapedia is just a body of opinion it is hardly a definitive source. that is it is not a peer review work. i have read most of what watts wrote. watts is not a theologian.his observations are intended to enlighten but not to totally reveal, watts offfers us a hitchhiker guide to spirituality. you are quoting him out of context.

To whom are you addressing your post? I am confused.

 

[notself]

Just to clarify some things: there is no creator god or creation story in the teachings of the Buddha. There is no salvation through anyone or any agency. Each person saves him or herself.

By the way, BennieP, the link in your posts has slightly off the mark quotes about Buddhism. The wording change is subtle but gives a more accurate, although extremely limited, view of what the Buddha taught.

The Four Noble Truths
**There is suffering **
There is a cause of suffering – wanting things to be different than they are and/or wanting things to never change.
There is the cessation of suffering
**The way leading to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path **

The Noble Eightfold Path
Right Speech — Speaking in a non hurtful, not exaggerated, truthful way
Right Actions — Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm to oneself or others. (harm in the sense of immoral action)
Right Livelihood — One’s way of livelihood does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly
**Right Effort **— Focusing energy to face reality head on and to persist with one’s practice
**Right Mindfulness **— Mental ability to see things for what they are with clear consciousness
Right Concentration — Being aware of the present reality, without any craving or aversion.
Right Understanding — Understanding each part of the path and how each part relates to the others. Most particularly, Suffering, Non-self, and Impermanence
**Right Thought **— Change in the pattern of thinking from emphasis on ego and desire to a state of Loving Kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity. Realization that all phenomena are subject to change.

As a Theravada Buddhists I have some serious problems with the description of Buddhism given under the headings; “What’s the Purpose?” and “Attracting Hungry Souls”. I won’t go into the specifics, but I would like to warn readers that there are over simplifications and serious errors in the description of Buddhist belief.

I **do **agree with the premise of your link. Christianity and Buddhism have some things in common, but one cannot be both a Christian and a Buddhist. Some have tried, but in my opinion, these people are just dabbling.

 

[Auntie_A]

Can we agree so far that there exist in zen and christianity some similar truths; but to state that they are the same or both seek the same goal is folly.

It has been my observation that Western people, particularly Americans, who practice zen after growing up Christian or Jewish are springing off the board of their previous faith, no matter how hard they try to empty. I find it hard to read Merton and not see his monastic Catholicism shining through. And who knows how much East-West discourse has influenced both teams in earlier world history? So I am not sure how to compare zen buddhism, except as I have read or heard expressed through a Western cultural view. In my multi-faith family we frequently have the debate about Buddhism vs. Christianity: that Buddhists seek the highest and, perhaps most divine, level of selfhood and humanness and Christians seek God at any level, within us, outside us, beside, beneath, behind, or in front of us.

Zen practitioners, please help me here with your view, but I see that in Christianity there is a striving to empty our egos (through prayer, acts, love) and to give ourselves up as a channel of God’s love, but if we fail in a conscious attempt at this form of expression we are still loved and may be called to serve God in a zillion other ways; in fact, that seems to be what God does to those who try so very hard to practice some form of deep or centering prayer: we are often whacked hard on the head to force us perhaps to deal with “matter”-the poor, the hungry, the sick, the dying, the imprisoned…life outside of ourselves.
We can go only so far inside before we must reach outside of us and if we stay too much outside, we must go within again. The great saints encountered and made peace with this balance/struggle more than most. The fact that we consider God in all of this as our Creator, our Father, Jesus Christ (who is God, our Creator, actually inhabiting a human body and dealing with physical matter) and as the Holy Spirit, is what makes this a very deep and personal yet unified and connected journey. The years of tradition and history of others on this journey are what humble us and keep us on course.

I do not know if any of this difference would also apply to zen but my decision to return to Christianity was clinched by the simple statement: “Buddha closed his eyes to shut out suffering; Jesus opened his eyes to take it all in.” (Wish I could quote the author) With all due respect to a sincere and wise zen practitioner, that view showed me how strong and transcendant Christian practice is designed to be.