Tobacco and Alcohol for minors

[Catholic90]

Chris Jacobsen:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with minors drinking and smoking.
.

Have you ever seen someone die from lung cancer? Struggle to live with emphysema? Smelled someone’s gross home, breath, clothes, and hair who smokes? Burned something or someBODY with their lit stick?
Have you ever seen a remorseful teenager who made really stupid choices because she was drunk? Have you ever seen the remains of a car driven by a drunk teen driver? (now dead, along with his passengers).

There is a whole lot wrong with minors drinking and even more wrong with ANYONE smoking. Smoking is a disgusting, dirty, filthy, expensive, damaging, gross, nasty, vile habit. Why would anyone want to do that? Yuck.

 

[puzzleannie]

frogman80:

Oy now…

Generally I agree with you… don’t think I implied otherwise… but in many cases breaking the law is venial (at most if at all) in nature… not mortal. Think speed limits, jay walking… etc.

jay walking is not minor, it is a law put in place to prevent injury and death. Laws against minors smoking and drinking are not minor (pun unintentional) they are also put in place because the concept of the age of majority presumes that those under this age cannot make prudent decisions about dangerous risk-taking and even potentially deadly behavior. [Why that legal principle does not include prevention of minors procuring ABC and abortions on their own volition is beyond the scope of this thread, but certainly an issue for thoughtful citizens.] As I said, this attitude about casual disregard for laws we find inconvenient, and transmitting that attitude to teens, is exactly why it is wrong for an adult to enable them to break the law.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Catholic90:

There is a whole lot wrong with minors drinking and even more wrong with ANYONE smoking. Smoking is a disgusting, dirty, filthy, expensive, damaging, gross, nasty, vile habit. Why would anyone want to do that? Yuck.

Please provide official church teaching on the intrinsic wrongness of smoking. The fact is smoking is a perfectly legitimate pleasure and when done with moderation is far less risky than driving around in your automobile. Granted, all should obey smoking laws however imprudent they might be.

As far as why anyone would do that, check out Why I Smoke a Pipe

And one from a Catholic perspective: lumen-christi.com/essay03.html

Scott

 

[Catholic90]

Scott Waddell:

Please provide official church teaching on the intrinsic wrongness of smoking. The fact is smoking is a perfectly legitimate pleasure and when done with moderation is far less risky than driving around in your automobile. Granted, all should obey smoking laws however imprudent they might be.

As far as why anyone would do that, check out Why I Smoke a Pipe

And one from a Catholic perspective: lumen-christi.com/essay03.html

Scott

I understand that addictions come in all forms and bad habits are hard to break. That is why is is horrific when minors, who are many times incapable of understanding the ugly long term ramifications of smoking, are led down this road.

Denial is not just a river!!

Scott, Something doesn’t have to be specifically addressed by church teachings to be wrong or bad for you!! Show we where in official church teachings it instructs us not to eat 6 packages of Oreos and 2 cases of sugared soda each day. That’s not healthy, either, but certainly not addressed specifically by the church!!

The FACT remains that those who smoke have a certain distinct odor about them that is far from pleasant. It is not healthy to inhale smoke, or even chew tobacco. (ever seen the lips and mouth of someone with cancer from tobacco chewing? It is not pretty.)

Minors have absolutely NO REASON to smoke. EVER.

 

[Al_Masetti]

One of my confessors admonished me “don’t invent new sins”.

[Actually, that happened twice… two different priests, two different places.]

Certain activities may be imprudent or may be inadvisable at some times and not at others.

But that doesn’t make them sins.

If I lift something that is too heavy and injure myself, is that a sin. Yes, I should know better… I am old and no longer can strain myself without inducing a heart attack. I no longer have great muscle tone and might get a hernia. But is it a sin?

When I was about five years old – that would have been around 1947 --, I used to “help” my grandparents at their sandwich shop. My “job” was to fetch cardboard coffee cups and lids from the big shipping cartons when needed. The big empty boxes made a GREAT hideout. I also helped stack the packs of cigarettes behind the register. One day a customer who I can only describe as “a middle aged man having rheumy eyes” wagged his finger at me and said “Don’t you never smoke; it don’t do nuthin’ fer ya.”

So I guess he didn’t need a warning printed on a pack of cigarettes.

BUT, huge numbers of people smoked back then. I remember seeing a newsfilm taken of a staff meeting with General Eisenhower as they were planning some military operation in 1944 - EVERYBODY in the meeting was smoking.

Everybody has always known that smoking was “bad for you”, but they smoked anyway. Some people say it made you more alert and kept you from dozing off when on duty.

Some say it gives pleasure. I have always enjoyed cigars.]

Not everyone gets sick from smoking. [You can look up another post where I went into this at length.]

With respect to alcohol, many Mediterranean families consume wine (alcohol) with meals… and children are given watered down wine with meals at some times.

I guess the thing is: How rigid do you want to get?

Do you want to allow for judgment and common sense? Or do you want rigid rules?

Do you want to make the rules applicable by age or by body weight? Or by metabolism? Or by psychological make-up?

If something is bad for you, personally; then, is that same thing equally bad for everyone else? If something is good for you, personally; then, should every one else be REQUIRED to use it?

Is there any room for flexibility???

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Catholic90:

I understand that addictions come in all forms and bad habits are hard to break. That is why is is horrific when minors, who are many times incapable of understanding the ugly long term ramifications of smoking, are led down this road.

Yes. This is why I said tobacco laws should be obeyed.

Denial is not just a river!!

??

Scott, Something doesn’t have to be specifically addressed by church teachings to be wrong or bad for you!! **Show we where in official church teachings it instructs us not to eat 6 packages of Oreos and 2 cases of sugared soda each day. ** That’s not healthy, either, but certainly not addressed specifically by the church!!

Tobacco is specically mentioned in CCC 2290:

The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

The operative word here is excess. Which implies that there is an amount of tobacco use that is not excessive.

The FACT remains that those who smoke have a certain distinct odor about them that is far from pleasant.

This is highly dependent on the quality and type of tobacco used. This is often referred to as “room note” among pipe smokers. I personally like even the smell of cheap, stale cigarettes because it reminds me that the world has not wholly succumbed to the curious belief that every corner of it needs to be as sterile and dull as a hospital ward.

It is not healthy to inhale smoke, or even chew tobacco. (ever seen the lips and mouth of someone with cancer from tobacco chewing? It is not pretty.)

Correction. It is not healthy to inhale smoke or chew tobacco in excessive amounts. Just like it is not healthy to do most things in excessive amounts. It is especially not spiritually healthy to make bodily health an absolute like a pagan god. (CCC 2289)

Minors have absolutely NO REASON to smoke. EVER.

I agree. And this is simply because they have not completely developed their capacity for judgement. Which is why they are not allowed to vote, drink, and various other things.

Scott

 

[Catholic90]

Scott Waddell:

This is highly dependent on the quality and type of tobacco used. This is often referred to as “room note” among pipe smokers.

Mmmmm, no. That is dependent on tobacco, period. To me, all types of tobacco STINK. Its offensive odor clings to clothing, hair, stays in cars, in houses, etc. To me, there is no such thing as a good smelling tobacco. It is a gross, disgusting, stinky, vile habit. (Much like picking one’s nose or farting in public).

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Catholic90:

Mmmmm, no. That is dependent on tobacco, period. To me, all types of tobacco STINKS. Its offensive odor clings to clothing, hair, stays in cars, in houses, etc. To me, there is no such thing as a good smelling tobacco. It is a gross, disgusting, stinky, vile habit. (Much like picking one’s nose or farting in public).

Well, to each his own. I think I have adequetley shown that there is nothing intrinsicly wrong with tobacco use in and of itself.

Scott

 

[frogman80]

puzzleannie:

jay walking is not minor, it is a law put in place to prevent injury and death. Laws against minors smoking and drinking are not minor (pun unintentional) they are also put in place because the concept of the age of majority presumes that those under this age cannot make prudent decisions about dangerous risk-taking and even potentially deadly behavior. [Why that legal principle does not include prevention of minors procuring ABC and abortions on their own volition is beyond the scope of this thread, but certainly an issue for thoughtful citizens.] As I said, this attitude about casual disregard for laws we find inconvenient, and transmitting that attitude to teens, is exactly why it is wrong for an adult to enable them to break the law.

I never said anything about the value of the law itself… I was speaking of man made laws and how they relate to sin.

…presumes that those under this age cannot make prudent decisions about…

The Church and the US military say otherwise.

Why that legal principle does not include prevention of minors procuring ABC and abortions on their own volition is beyond the scope of this thread, but certainly an issue for thoughtful citizens.

This is a very good point you brought up. But what rights do the parents end up getting? They can’t stop their child from getting ABC… then they can’t stop their child from getting an abortion if a baby is made. In some states they can’t legally give their children a glass of wine with dinner… to teach their kids how to drink responsibly. By the time the young adult is legal… they are out of the house, and probably away at a college. Some states are trying to pass a “no spanking” law.

Beware of off balanced principals. I see more people fighting for anit-tobacco / anti-drinking than I see fighting against abortion. Small issues with a big fight behind them reek of distraction. Something very similar happens during spiritual battles… the devil will distract a person with some small trivial detail in order to get the big stuff passed in the background. Anyone who has battled with scrupulosity knows what I am talking about.

 

[frogman80]

Ok… I add this to help people balance their principals. (it is also fun to add gasoline to the fire that has already been started )

I cannot verify if all of this is 100% fact. This info is NOT to add an argument that we should all become tobacco users. I posted this in another thread because I was hoping some might be able to add to the list, or verify some of the information. Again… want to note that for the few saints that are on this tiny list, there are many more Saints who are not!

St. Joseph of Cupertino - Snuff - His was the first case in which the use of tobacco was an issue during canonization process. His advocate successfully argued that snuff-taking was an aid to holiness.

St. John Bosco - Snuff & Smoke -

St. Pius X - Smoker - Occasionally borrowed cigarettes from Swiss Guards. When reprimanding a bishop for his scandalous misbehavior with wine, women and song, the pope offered the errant bishop a cigar from the papal humidor on his desk. The bishop declined the offer with the protestation, “I do not have that vice, Your Holiness,” to which His Holiness replied, “If cigars were a vice, I would not offer you one, for you have quite enough vices already.” Tobacco use was an issue during canonization process.

St. John Kemble - Pipe - Martyred in England. When the hour of execution arrived, he persuaded the official to delay a bit until he had finished his prayers, smoked a pipe and had a drink (alcohol). The offical joined him.

Saint Vincent de Paul - Snuff - Tobacco use was an issue during canonization process.

St. Bernadette - Snuff - Her snuff box is a relic on display in Lourdes. Took snuff for her asthma.

Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati - Pipe - He smoked a pipe, enjoyed female society, took delight in poetry and operas, and called himself Robes Pierre.

 

[Consecrated]

…I personally like even the smell of cheap, stale cigarettes because it reminds me that the world has not wholly succumbed to the curious belief that every corner of it needs to be as sterile and dull as a hospital ward…

…It is especially not spiritually healthy to make bodily health an absolute like a pagan god. (CCC 2289)

Here, Here!!!

Granted, our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and we should not harm it by intentional excesses of any kind (gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins). HOWEVER, did it occur to anyone to wonder why our society places such a HUGE emphasis on bodily appearance and health? And gives not a whit of credence to the idea that it might be better to give just as much if not more attention to our immortal souls? The reason is that we live in a pagan society, one that does not really believe in Heaven and Hell. And like it or not, even we good, practicing Catholics are influenced by the society we live in.

It is not necessarily a sin to enjoy tobacco or alcohol. Responsible parents ought to know what to allow in their own house with their own children and when to allow it. Drunkenness is always a sin, no matter how old you are (of course the level of culpability is up to God), and buying alcohol for people you know want it on purpose to become drunk makes you complicit in the sin. Right?

 

[Al_Masetti]

First of all, let’s take Oreos off the table.

Well, I didn’t mean that literally.

[restatement]: Let’s EXEMPT Oreos from discussion.

I love Oreos.

If I was a poet I would write poetry about all the different ways you can eat Oreos. [Hydrox doesn’t even come CLOSE!!]

So, let’s just get our priorities straight here.

Believe it or not, I actually once confessed in actual confession to a priest about Oreos. He got really “ticked off”. Ordered me to go get a Spiritual Director, to quit making up sins and to quit wasting his time.

I think he meant I should get a life and quite sweating the small stuff.

But then, everything is small stuff.

Or. Maybe. Not.

 

[coyote]

Chris Jacobsen:

Where I live, an 18 year old can legally drink a bar at any time if his parent is with him.

The only reason states passed laws against drinking and smoking is because they were blackmailed by the Federal Government. This is the same Federal Government who supports hacking babies up in pieces. This is the same Federal Government who is making Iraq safe for Muslims to persecute Catholics.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with minors drinking and smoking.
Catholics who disagree are people who prefer to grovel in front of a U.S. flag, rather than do what’s right.

This is a joke right? Your trying to be funny right?

 

[coyote]

Scott Waddell:

Please provide official church teaching on the intrinsic wrongness of smoking. The fact is smoking is a perfectly legitimate pleasure and when done with moderation is far less risky than driving around in your automobile. Granted, all should obey smoking laws however imprudent they might be.

As far as why anyone would do that, check out Why I Smoke a Pipe

And one from a Catholic perspective: lumen-christi.com/essay03.html

Scott

I’ve heard this “in moderation” argument before. I know of no one that smokes that does it in moderation. Everyone of them is ADDICTED to the stuff.

 

[frogman80]

coyote:

I’ve heard this “in moderation” argument before. I know of no one that smokes that does it in moderation. Everyone of them is ADDICTED to the stuff.

Not everyone who uses tobacco… smokes a pack a day of cigarettes. Also, not everyone who uses smokeless tobacco… “chews” and spits. It is nice when people can differentiate.

You are right. Using tobacco is addictive. Everyone who uses realizes this.

I smoke a pipe a few times a week. Last year, I chose not to smoke it during lent. This week I go on travel for work. I probably won’t bring it with me. I am not chained to my pipe. If I feel that it is getting out of hand, I purposely give it up for a period of time to help mortify the will.

There are many things people use that can be addictive if not used in moderation. Caffeine… Nothing wrong with a couple cups of coffee a day, but anyone who does this is very familiar with caffeine headaches on the days you can only find decaf. Nasal spray… you use to open your nasal passage when you have allergies, or when you are sick. If you use it too much, you become dependent on it to keep your nose open! I think I even read something about sugar addiction…

I also gave some examples in a post above of some saints who “used.” It is very apparent to me that the “addiction” you speak of did not come between them and God… and believe me they didn’t need some scientist to tell them it was addictive… it has been a well known fact for a long long time.

Since you have been so unfortunate to only know those who have let tobacco addiction get control of them… tell them about all the benefits of moderation… or offer them a pipe!

 

[didymus]

dulcissima:

The younger a person is when they start to drink, the more likely they are to become an alcoholic. The law about being 21 before you can legally drink is a good one. If people waited until that age to start drinking, they will be far less likely to abuse alcohol. I know I didn’t always make the best decisions say at 17, 18, 19, etc. If I had been drinking alcohol at that age, I would hate to think of what I might have done.

Beg to differ. The 21 drinking age is idiotic and an insult to supposedly full citizens of the land of the free. If people aren’t mature enough to drink at 18 then they shouldn’t be allowed to vote, marry, sign contracts, or serve in the military either.

 

[Affirmed]

Amen Didymus!!! We can send you off to die in war at age 18, but you’re not old enough to have a beer at home.

 

[mlchance]

Too much theorizing and theologizing. Keep it simple: In general, it’s a good idea to not break the law.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Catilieth]

There is nothing immoral or sinful about alcohol. Where, in the bible or in the Catechism, is there anything that says alcohol is sinful? There is nothing more holy or pure about the person who doesn’t drink alcohol than one who does. And at least for wine, there is a great deal of medical data supporting the health benefits of drinking wine in moderation, not just cardiac health, but mental health, memory and cognition. So, we have a substance that is not sinful, and can have health benefits.

The sin is in drunkeness. It is seriously sinful to get seriously drunk. And how is a person supposed to learn how to drink responsibly…to hear the politically correct position, the day one turns 21, you are hereby rendered “adult” …hog wash.

Though I was raised in this country, I am Cuban by birth. My parents do not have the Puritanical views on alcohol so prevelant in this country . Alcohol, at least within my parents society, is merely one of many licit food/beverages. One, however, that must not be abused because drunkeness is a mortal sin (because it puts one in a position that impairs one’s ability to make moral decisions).

Wine was/is a part of any “formal” dinner occasion…Sunday dinner, Christmas, having company over. From the time I was 6, I could have an appropriate amount of wine…at 6 it was a couple of sips. By adolescense, a half a glass of wine. No one, not parents or adult children had more than 2 glasses because then it would start going to your head. Besides teaching us how to drink, it also took all the mystique out of alcohol. By the time I was in High School, and friends/classmates wanted to get drunk, there was no allure…I mean, why not just drink lemon-aide until you puke, it would be a lot cheaper and you wouldn’t act so stupid and obnoxious. I have 7 brothers and sisters(the youngest is now 31) and never have I seen or even heard of any one being even a little drunk.
Countries were wine consumption is part of the culture are also the same countries with very low alcoholism rates (Spain, Italy, France).

Instead of being sinful, teaching your children how to drink responsibly is something parents should do. Most people that I see drinking are **clueless ** about how to drink without excess…they think that drinking responsively means letting someone else drive. You of course teach by example, but it you really understand that there is no sin in drinking, then how can you say that it is sinful to serve alcohol to minors. The prevaling attitude serves to exacerbate the problem, not lessen it.