Today was my first TLM Mass too!

[parvenu74]

Are most of the Masses at a Traditional parish Low Masses, or do they still do Missa Cantatas or Dialogue Masses? These usually involve the congregation a bit more in the responses.

It depends on where you go and at what time of day. At the Latin Mass community in Kansas City, KS, there are two Masses on Sunday: a 6:30 am Low Mass and an 11:00 AM sung High Mass, or Missa Cantata (the plural of which is Missae Cantatae… I had 3 years of Latin in high school ). Occasionally, if there are visiting priests/deacons/seminarians, we’ll have a Solemn High Mass (Missa Solemnis) and this past Saturday we had the rare chance to have a solemn high requiem Mass for a parishioner who died the weekend previous.

If active participation is more your thing then you definitely want to go to a high or solemn Mass where it’s encouraged to sing the response to priest (for example: the “Et cum spiritu tuo” reply to the priest’s “Dominus vobiscum.”). While it might seem like there’s little for the faithful to do at the Low Mass, you’re right and that’s kinda the point of the liturgy. While the priest is required by the rules of the liturgy to say certain prayers and make certain movement, the faithful are not and it’s a prime time to engage in quiet, mental prayer before the presence of Our Lord Jesus in the most holy Sacrament of the altar.

I am not entirely sure what a “dialogue Mass” is in this context. Is this a Low Mass where all present make the responses rather than just the altar servers? Personally, I think this destroys the essentially contemplative nature of the Low Mass, but then again, so do screaming babies…

 

[palmas85]

I would love to own one of these missals someday, but right now they’re just too cost prohibitive. For anyone like me who can’t afford the real thing just yet, you can get a Latin-English Booklet Missal @ the COALITION ECCLESIA DEI website for $6.50. It helped me a good deal, and it’s full of other traditional prayers and practices as well as the full ordinary of the mass.

You can find old Missals quite often at Thrift Stores for about $10.0 or so. They are always being offered on E-Bay and usually go for less than $20.00, although I have seen some go as high as forty or fifty bucks.

 

[BeeSweet]

You can find old Missals quite often at Thrift Stores for about $10.0 or so. They are always being offered on E-Bay and usually go for less than $20.00, although I have seen some go as high as forty or fifty bucks.

So what are the differences or pros and cons of the various old missals? Which would be most helpful to someone with extrememly limited exposure to the TLM?

 

[parvenu74]

So what are the differences or pros and cons of the various old missals? Which would be most helpful to someone with extrememly limited exposure to the TLM?

Personally, I think it comes down to personal taste. I’ve own a few different missals (Maryknoll, Saint Joseph Daily, etc) and have settled on the Saint Andrew Daily missal because:

• I like the in-depth readings prior to the Sunday Masses which draw heavily on the traditional breviary
• I like the fact that the missal has the Latin as well as the English for EVERY part of the Mass for every day, and not just the Introit, Gradual, and Post Communion like some other missals
• The layout “makes sense” to me

Not exactly a one-size-fits-all recipe, and since it’s a 1945 edition reprint, it’s pretty much useless during Holy Week.

If you have the chance, search out a traditional Catholic bookstore and thumb through the various versions. Also, check to see if the book seller will let you trade it back (minus ten dollars or so) for a different one if you find you don’t like it.

Just my $0.02 on the question.

 

[Windmill]

See a previous thread for comparisons on missals…

Which TLM Missal do you use?

 

[BeeSweet]

See a previous thread for comparisons on missals…

Which TLM Missal do you use?

Great information, thanks so much! Just out of curiousity, have you decided on one for yourself yet?

 

[Windmill]

I actually decided to go with the Stedman’s pocket missal. Since we don’t have a traditional mass offered in town, I’d have to drive a ways to get to one. That being the case, it would only be on a Sunday. So, I couldn’t justify the expense for a daily missal right now.

I found a good, inexpensive 1956 Stedman’s missal on eBay per Snorter’s suggestion. I’m still waiting for it to arrive, so I can’t say if I am happy with my decision as of yet. I have borrowed an old St. Joseph’s Daily Missal from our church library, and I like it a lot because it explains so many things, it is easy to read with larger font, and it has beautiful pictures on every other page that make the missal a great devotional tool. If I am not satisfied with the Stedman’s, I will order a new St. Joseph’s Daily Missal.

I also have a friend who had a Baronius 1962 Missal, and asked to see his. The Latin font for the propers was super-small and hard on my eyes.

 

[palmas85]

So what are the differences or pros and cons of the various old missals? Which would be most helpful to someone with extrememly limited exposure to the TLM?

It depends on you actually. Many, like me, don’t use the Missal just for Mass but rather as an overall devotional aid. For my money the easiest and simplest to use if the old standby St Josephs 58 either daily or Sunday… It is not as extensive as some of the others and purists don’t care to use it as often due to the collect, gradual etc not being in Latin. For a beginner a Continuous Missal is good because you don’t have to flip through the pages going back and forth. It has the Mass from start to finish in order. In a normal Missal The Ordinary of the Mass is in the center, between the Proper of the Seasons and the Proper of the Saints . Another poster here says that he has found a continuous on E-Bay that was designed for a dialogue Mass that has the Latin responses I have never seen one of those although it sounds interesting…

For a more complete Missal I like the 45 St Andrews. Others don’t care for it as much.

Overall if you are able, I would reccommend the St Josephs Daily Missal. They are plentiful both in Thrift Stores and on E-Bay and are reasonable, usually less than $20.00 for a good used copy.

If you cannot find one and are interested in getting one pm me, and I will try to help you out.

 

[sneakers]

Well it was very different. I am hoping to go again but only after I have procured a Latin missal and have some clue what is going on!

My husband (a convert to the Catholic Church) Went with me twice. (It was my third time). He was helping ME as we followed along in the missals they handed out at the door. LOL! It gets easier every time you go. We have so far to go if we want to go to a TLM (about 64 miles one way), so we can’t go very often, but it gets easier every time we go.

Glad you liked it! My 23 year old son went with us on Christmas Eve (first time he’d ever been to a TLM) and he loved it!

 

[BobP123]

Today was my second TLM, but you know what? I’m really not that “on fire” for it. No offence intended! The parish I usually attend celebrates a very reverent Novus Ordo Mass. We kneel for communion, we receive by intinction, we do not share the sign of peace except for Christmas day. The TLM in comparison to what I’m used to seems so closed off to participation. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the “gift bearers”, the gratuitous use of the sign of peace, more Eucharistic Ministers than altar servers, and other participatory innovations of the new mass. But I really really enjoy the back and forth of the responsorial psalm, the intercessory prayers, many things that make me feel like I and my brothers and sisters and our priest are giving of ourselves to our Lord God, to each other, and for each other. And the readings… we read so much more of the Bible at a NO Mass! Not only more of them, but the readings are longer, aren’t they?

I will attend the TLM again, and again. No doubt it is beautiful. If only we could get people “on fire” for celebrating a reverent Novus Ordo Mass though… When done with the intent of praising and glorifying God it is really beautiful, in addition to imparting so much of the Word of God for us to carry away with us. Forgive my judgement, but what I see in so many of the modern innovative parishes tends to be self-glorification, a kind of fast-food approach to religion that is shallow and simply not suitable in my opinion for celebration of the sacrifice our Lord Jesus Christ made for us on the cross. I would so like to see people embrace the reverence of the TLM in the celebration of the NO!

It is worthy of note that the pre-Vatican II TLM was attended by more Catholics than today and who were more inclined to go to more daily Masses as well as Sunday. Over the course of the year, they were treated to many more St Jerome-translated Scripture readings than today. In Holy Week alone all four passions were read.
Remember too that Paul VI did not promulgate the Novus Ordo as any type of sacrifice to God. In fact he removed a lot of reference to sacrifice altogether. It was only later, upon the insistence of several conservative Cardinals that he DEFINE the Mass as a Sacrifice and a Meal. Yet he chose not to put the sacrificial prayers back into the Mass. So I guess we’ll just have to pretend it’s a sacrifice?

 

[Joysong]

BopP:

Remember too that Paul VI did not promulgate the Novus Ordo as any type of sacrifice to God. :bigyikes: [Why would you come to a Catholic forum and inject this heresy?] In fact he removed a lot of reference to sacrifice altogether. It was only later, upon the insistence of several conservative Cardinals that he DEFINE the Mass as a Sacrifice and a Meal. Yet he chose not to put the sacrificial prayers back into the Mass. So I guess we’ll just have to pretend it’s a sacrifice?

No wish to derail Lily’s beautiful moment to address this error, so if you need references of our Eucharistic Prayers where “sacrifice” is definitely stated within, please PM me. Have you never listened to the words?

Lily,

I am very happy for you, too, as I was for Maurin. May God bless you as you worship Him in the TLM where He has led you.

 

[BobP123]

… so if you need references of our Eucharistic Prayers where “sacrifice” is definitely stated within, please PM me. Have you never listened to the words?

If memory serves me right, Eucharistic Prayer I, which is seldom used, doesn’t quite use the word “sacrifice” in the Old Testament sense. But that is really a moot point anyway, isn’t it?

So let’s try this again.

“Apparently the designation of the Mass in the first edition of the Novus Ordo as ‘the Lord’s Supper or the the holy gathering or assembly of the people of God, as they come together, into one [body], with the priest as presider and taking on the persona of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord,’ has its source in the Protestant theology of the Abendmahl rite, the commemorative meal. The fact that this particular definition of the Mass appears in a document bearing the signature of Pope Paul VI, and that it became necessary later to correct it, is a painfully obvious indication of how confused things are in our Church today.” Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Una Voce Press, 1993

Hope this helps.

 

[mikeanayaus]

I’m pretty sure that Eucharistic Prayer IV does refer to the mass as a sacrifice more than once.

 

[AJV]

If memory serves me right, Eucharistic Prayer I, which is seldom used, doesn’t quite use the word “sacrifice” in the Old Testament sense. But that is really a moot point anyway, isn’t it?

So let’s try this again.

“Apparently the designation of the Mass in the first edition of the Novus Ordo as ‘the Lord’s Supper or the the holy gathering or assembly of the people of God, as they come together, into one [body], with the priest as presider and taking on the persona of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord,’ has its source in the Protestant theology of the Abendmahl rite, the commemorative meal. The fact that this particular definition of the Mass appears in a document bearing the signature of Pope Paul VI, and that it became necessary later to correct it, is a painfully obvious indication of how confused things are in our Church today.” Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Una Voce Press, 1993

Hope this helps.

Can I quote two passages of the 1969 GIRM which you have referred to?

55 e Offering: in this memorial, the Church-and in particular the Church assembled here and now -offers the spotless Victim to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

1. At the altar the sacrifice of the cross is made present under sacramental signs.

Also within the Ordinary of the Mass outside the Eucharistic Prayers: the Orate Fratres and the In spiritu humilitatis.

 

[Trident59]

Well, its off to the Ancient Domincan Rite tonight.
Its done at least once a month at Holy Rosary in Portland, OR. Sung Gregorian (Missae Canata).

Next Old Rite is on Ash Wednesday.

Tried to invite my N.O. priest to come with me, but was properly ignored.