today's (April 8) Mass readings (Christ betrayed / Judas in Hell [?] / Predestination??)

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Wednesday (4-8)

**Isaiah 50:4-9: **

The Lord God has given me a well-trained tongue, that I might know how to speak to the weary a word that will rouse them. Morning after morning he opens my ear that I may hear; and I have not rebelled, have not turned back. I gave my back to those who bet me, my cheeks to those who plucked my beard; my face I did not shield from buffets and spitting. The Lord God is my help, therefore I am not disgraced; I have set my face like flint, knowing that I shall not be put to shame. He is near who upholds my right; if anyone wishes to oppose me, let us appear together. Who disputes my right? Let him confront me. See, the Lord God is my help; who will prove me wrong?

Ps 69: Lord, in your great love, answer me…

St. Mt 26:14-25:

One of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, “what are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” They paid him thirty pieces of silver, and from that time on he looked for an opportunity to hand him over. On the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, “Surely it is not I, Lord?” He said in reply, “He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” He answered, “You have said so.”

*I have always wondered what would have happened if Judas had repented and what mystifies me more than that is… What if Judas had repented before he had done any damage? Then would Jesus have still died on the Cross? If it was pre-ordained that Judas betray Christ, then maybe that’s where Presbyterians and others get this notion that some are destined for Heaven and some for Hell…(?) :confused: I have to say i don’t understand… *
 
Judas had free will and made his own choice. The fact that Jesus knew beforehand what that choice would be had no effect on the result.
 
Judas had free will and made his own choice. The fact that Jesus knew beforehand what that choice would be had no effect on the result.
i don’t know… I have said this before and have not changed my mind… .but i say God does NOT know our choices before-hand… If that were the case, there would be no free will… He chooses to not know such things… Or i should say, free will prevents God from knowing… and He, of course, knew this when he granted us free will… .

I believe that God knew what Judas would do only AFTER Satan entered him at the Last supper… but before that… well, he didn’t have the devil in him before that, so God “didn’t know” (although God knew what Judas or any sinner’s INCLINATION is going to be) … Once the devil possessed him, well, it wouldn’t be difficult to figure out what he would do then…

another weird thing is that even after Judas had the devil in him and betryaed Christ, he was sorry, tried to give the $ back…

this seems to confuse even more… :confused::confused: i mean, it seems he was somewhat repentant…

Did he just give in to despair because the chief priests wouldn’t take the $ back ?? refused possibility of Christ’s forgivness?

or did Judas only “repent” because of appearances? ( He didn’t want people to know what he had done…) so his repentance was selfish and not sincere??

Jesus said that it would have been better he were never born… To me, this indicates he went to Hell… :confused:
 
Interesting.

We know God is Omnipotent, all knowing and all powerful.

He surely knows what we will do but He loves us so much that He gives us the free will to choose our own destiny.

Distracted says; "I believe that God knew what Judas would do only AFTER Satan entered him at the Last supper… but before that… well, he didn’t have the devil in him before that, so God “didn’t know”

Jesus says, teaching his disciples about the Eucharist “I am the bread of life" (Jn 6:35 & 48)
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”(Jn 6:51)

Some disciples did not believe (Jn 6:66 is the only time in Scripture that any disciples leave Jesus!)

“But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."(Jn 6:64)

Scripture clearly shows that Jesus knew Judas would betray him well before the Last Supper.

I believe if Judas had repented and was truly sorry, Jesus would have forgiven him. Judas chose his own fate, it wasn’t predetermined.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
All good meditations “lectio divina”…putting oneself in the scene and being part of the story…even as an observer…

My only strong caution is regarding your second statement…it opposes a fundamental truth about who God is and what he can and does do:
i don’t know… I have said this before and have not changed my mind… .but i say God does NOT know our choices before-hand… If that were the case, there would be no free will… He chooses to not know such things… Or i should say, free will prevents God from knowing… and He, of course, knew this when he granted us free will… .
I believe that God knew what Judas would do only AFTER Satan entered him at the Last supper… but before that… well, he didn’t have the devil in him before that, so God “didn’t know” (although God knew what Judas or any sinner’s INCLINATION is going to be) … Once the devil possessed him, well, it wouldn’t be difficult to figure out what he would do then…
  1. Jeremiah (NKJV)1:5:…"5. Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
    Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
  2. Matthew 6:8 (NKJV):…“8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.”
  3. Take a look at the CCC paras below…(emphasis mine)…sorry about the length but they answer your “doubts” about what /when God knows and “doesn’t know.”…which is that there is absolutely nothing that he does not know:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
Providence and secondary causes 306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173
Providence and the scandal of evil. 309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: … his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. *There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
*
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
Regarding Judas’ “repentance”…it may have been an act of pride…not sorrow for what he did to offend God and Our Lord Jesus…but sorry for himself…he saw how much of a sinner he really was…led to despair. Judas could not get forgiveness because he was asking it from himself (not God)…and he could not escape the horrible fact of what he did!
Pax Christi
 
All good meditations “lectio divina”…putting oneself in the scene and being part of the story…even as an observer…

My only strong caution is regarding your second statement…it opposes a fundamental truth about who God is and what he can and does do:
  1. Jeremiah (NKJV)1:5:…"5. Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
    Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
  2. Matthew 6:8 (NKJV):…“8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.”
  3. Take a look at the CCC paras below…(emphasis mine)…sorry about the length but they answer your “doubts” about what /when God knows and “doesn’t know.”…which is that there is absolutely nothing that he does not know:
Regarding Judas’ “repentance”…it may have been an act of pride…not sorrow for what he did to offend God and Our Lord Jesus…but sorry for himself…he saw how much of a sinner he really was…led to despair. Judas could not get forgiveness because he was asking it from himself (not God)…and he could not escape the horrible fact of what he did!
Pax Christi
i don’t feel my statement opposes God in any way and i stand by what i say… Maybe… just maybe it WAS ordained, as it were that Judas betray Christ… but it was NOT pre-ordained that he not ask for / receive forgivenss…

and this is a big MAYBE on my part… I bleieve he alwyas had the option to change his mind… about betraying Jesus…
 
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