Today's Gospel question

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Shelion

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27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Luke 16
I understand the story in its context, but this one line today surprised me, because I noticed that the rich man is praying/begging for mercy and conversion of his family.
I thought, still think, that the damned souls are totally without love, they can only hate - including their family. They blaspheme there and hate God and His saints. How does one reconcile these things then? Is perhaps the man in the lowest parts of the Purgatory? I don’t think so. But can he really care for his brothers there? I was (I think I still am) convinced that such good sentiments are not possible in Hell.
 
I think it’s important that when we read parables, we do not press too hard the consistency and coherency of every clause: they are primarily stories, couched in somewhat prosaic ways that would be intelligible. They are not meant to be (and should not be read as though they are) legal-like propositions where every statement must be made systematically consistent.

That being said, very few things are definitively taught by the Church regarding the existential nature of the “self” in hell. There is suffering, but in terms of how this is suffering is experienced and intelligibly processed by the human self is little known.

In several ways, I am not so certain that we should view the Rich Man’s plea sympathetically: it is unclear if he is expressing contrition with any sincerity.
  • He asks Abraham for mercy, not Lazarus;
  • He asks Abraham to send Lazarus, as a servant, simply to satisfy him, as if to replay out their earthly lives. Compare Matt 18:33, to have mercy - and thus seek - mercy from your fellow slave; and
  • Then when Abraham explains to the rich man that his suffering is due to the relationship between him and Lazarus, the rich man misses the point and instead asks Abraham to send again Lazarus instead to his father’s house.
 
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We can’t be sure where he is.
They say that he asks for the conversion of his family because if he is in Hell their damnation would add to his torments.
A soul who is in Purgatory will have perfect charity and will intercede for and do whatever it can for the conversion of their family members.
 
The rich man expresses concern for his family members, which is not consistent with Hell. There are two options: either the request was posed only to illustrate the point that even the dead would not change the hearts of people attached to wealth or the rich man was in Purgatory. Purgatory probably has many levels, some closer to Heaven some closer to Hell.
 
OurLadyofSorrows said:
What Abraham is saying is that we have Moses and the Prophets to teach us, and if we won’t listen to them, we won’t listen to anyone.

Lazarus was in the Bosom of Abraham, not yet in heaven as it had not opened to humanity yet.
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Not what I asked about, but thanks for the contribution 🙂
Bithynian said:
I think it’s important that when we read parables, we do not press too hard the consistency and coherency of every clause: they are primarily stories, couched in somewhat prosaic ways that would be intelligible.
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In a way, I agree, And yet I am rather inclined to believe that I just don’t understand something, than that Jesus’s words are inconsistent. It was His parable, He knew what He meant.
De_Maria said:
But it’s true. He is in Purgatory. The original Greek for that verse uses the word, “hades”, which is the place of the dead. Not Gehenna, which is the place of the damned.

See Dr. Scott Hahn’s explanation on the topic.
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Thanks! Exactly what I needed. And I was thinking that perhaps it’s simply the lowest levels of Purgatory…
You see, I’m Polish, and I mostly read in my language translation. And the words for where the rich man was was like Abyss, so it might have been confusing. I’ll read Scott Hahn right away, thanks.
 
The Old Testament view of the afterlife, at least as shown in the older books of the OT, is that Sheol – a dark, gloomy place – is where all souls end up after death, without any idea of reward or punishment. Sheol seems to have been the same as the Greek Hades. The division into one (nice) place for the good and a separate (not nice) place for the wicked was a comparatively late development. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there is a “great chasm” that the rich man can’t cross, but he can see Lazarus on the other side, in the bosom of Abraham, and he’s even close enough to carry on a conversation with Abraham.

Is it possible that the “abyss” in your Polish translation corresponds to the “great chasm” in Luke 16:26?

www.biblegateway.com

Luke 16:26 RSVCE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com
 
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There’s the great chasm in Luke 16:26 but what about verse 23? There I have sth like Abyss or Chasm or sth similar in English, and that was usually meant as Hell in Polish - that is, as another name for it.
 
The Greek word in v. 23 is “Hades”, which also occurs in nine other verses in the NT:
Matt 11:23, 16:18
Luke 10:15 (and here, 16:23)
Acts 2:27, 2:31
Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14
Does your Bible use the same Polish word every time?
 
BartholomewB said:
The Greek word in v. 23 is “Hades”, which also occurs in nine other verses in the NT:
Matt 11:23, 16:18
Luke 10:15 (and here, 16:23)
Acts 2:27, 2:31
Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14
Does your Bible use the same Polish word every time?
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No, Mt 16:18 is clearly talking about Hell (bramy piekielne = gates of Hell);
Mt 11,23 uses the Abyss/Chasm word (Otchłań) - meaning a deep hole like without end and very dark;
Luke 10:15 - the same as above and Acts 2:27 and 31 the same;
Same Rev 1:18, 6:8 and the last too.
Wouldn’t that indicate the rich man is clearly in Hell after all?..
 
Shelion said:
Wouldn’t that indicate the rich man is clearly in Hell after all?..
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I don’t think there is a single, unarguable answer to your question. I just checked in the RSVCE, which is widely regarded as the standard modern English translation in Catholic use (though not the official translation for readings at Mass, which is NABRE). In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the RSVCE leaves the Greek name “Hades” untranslated. It fact that’s what it does in all but one of the ten occurrences of the term in the NT. The exception is Jesus’ saying about “the gates of Hell”, which the RSVCE rather timidly (in my personal view) changes to “the powers of death”:

www.biblegateway.com

Matt 16:18 RSVCE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com
 
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Our priest said this morning that the line you quoted was actually a sign of the rich man’s selfishness. He still wasn’t SEEING Lazarus. He wasn’t happy Lazarus was in a place of well-deserved rest after a brutal life. He was now asking Lazarus to hop up and do something FOR HIM (and HIS family members). Still self-focused & not seeing past his own / his family’s own nose. It was all about his family’s comfort with no thought to letting Lazarus enjoy heaven. I’d never thought of it that way before and found that thought-provoking.
 
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Thanks, it is indeed, food for thought.
My mind is clearer about the issue now.
 
Shelion said:
See Dr. Scott Hahn’s explanation on the topic.
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Which is listed just before doctor Hahns conclusion.

He States
“Do souls intercede with God for mercy? Hardly.”

I think this was a typo. And that he meant

“Do souls in Hell …”
John
 
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