Today's Gospel reading, 9-30-07 (Protestants Interpretation?)

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Today’s reading was a parable by Jesus about a poor man named Lazarus who has nothing and goes to “Abraham’s bosum” and a rich man who has many worldly possessions and ends up in hell. As I understand it, Abraham’s bosum is where all souls went before Jesus’ death opened heaven for man. Is this not good evidence for the concept of purgatory?

And how exactly do protestants read and understand this parable? Where do they think Lazarus is when he is in "Abraham’s bosum’?
 
Hi Thomasf,

Just came across your post - I certainly don’t have an authorative answer to your question, but I’m not sure if that passage would be taken as evidence for purgatory. As Catholics understand it, purgatory is a temporary separation from God - but in the Gospel Abraham tells the rich man in hell that Lazarus was being comforted - so I don’t think that is in line with our belief of what happens in purgatory.

Also, in our present-day funerals, at the bidding prayers we pray that the angels may lead the soul into the bosom of Abraham - which I don’t think we take to mean purgatory since we’d pray that a soul may be worthy enough to go straight to Heaven!

In the Gospel reading today we are reading about the Old Covenant and as I understand it, souls could go to purgatory where they awaited Christ’s coming to them - there was a great gulf between the man who was tormented in Hell and Lazarus who was being comforted be Abraham, so I would be more inclined to take it as representing Heaven rather than purgatory… but that’s just my humble, uneducated reading of this passage - so I am open to being corrected!!🙂
 
thomasf said:
Today’s reading was a parable by Jesus about a poor man named Lazarus who has nothing and goes to “Abraham’s bosum” and a rich man who has many worldly possessions and ends up in hell. As I understand it, Abraham’s bosum is where all souls went before Jesus’ death opened heaven for man. Is this not good evidence for the concept of purgatory?

And how exactly do protestants read and understand this parable? Where do they think Lazarus is when he is in "Abraham’s bosum’?
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look for a book by Johnson called Shades of Sheol.

Basically, Sheol or the grave had two compartments, paradise aka abraham’s bosom and the place of torment. When Jesus ascended into heaven he led those in paradise side of grave to heaven proper, and thus paradise was transfered to heaven. Prooof of this is paul being caught up to paradise.
 
scottm said:
He’s in heaven.
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He can’t be. Jesus hadn’t opened the gates of heaven yet.

And as I understand it, purgatory isn’t a place of seperation from God but a place of purification prior to entering heaven. I do believe one of the St Therese’s said that a bad day in purgatory was better than the best day on earth.
 
thomasf said:
He can’t be. Jesus hadn’t opened the gates of heaven yet.
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That’s your opinion. That’s not Joe Protestant’s opinion. Joe Protestant thinks when the soul leaves the body it goes to be with the Lord. Joe Protestant thinks that absent from the body = in the arms of Jesus.
 
Abraham’s bosom was a place where saved souls went before Christ opened the gates. I guess you could say it’s like a bunch of kids standing outside chuckie cheese waiting for the manager to let them in. The purgatorial place that is alluded to in the parable is where the rich man is. He is in fire, but still has concern for his family and friends. Since concern is a grace of God, and hell is the absence of God, it is only logical to assume that Purgatory is where the rich man is.
 
dbacks5439 said:
Abraham’s bosom was a place where saved souls went before Christ opened the gates. I guess you could say it’s like a bunch of kids standing outside chuckie cheese waiting for the manager to let them in. The purgatorial place that is alluded to in the parable is where the rich man is. He is in fire, but still has concern for his family and friends. Since concern is a grace of God, and hell is the absence of God, it is only logical to assume that Purgatory is where the rich man is.
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I don’t believe so. Doesn’t he ask to go and the demon or whoever tells him he can’t cross the canyon or breech? And that he can’t talk to those on the other side? Purgatory is a stepping stone to heaven, hell is permanent and there is no crossing over. If you are in purgatory, you’re eventually going to be in Heaven. You go to hell, you’re stuck there forever.
 
[NPC;2789811]

Just came across your post - I certainly don’t have an authorative answer to your question, but I’m not sure if that passage would be taken as evidence for purgatory. As Catholics understand it, purgatory is a temporary separation from God -
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Actually, not to sound rude, but the Catholic position on purgatory is not a “seperation from God” in the sense that they are banished from His presence. They are still in His care.
Purgatory is a state/place where the justified, the saved go after death and before the enter into the beatific vision. Every person in purgatory IS on his/her way to heaven and IS in God’s care
because they have died with their will in union (although imperfectly) with God. They are justified but not completely sanctified, but the are forever part of the elect.
but in the Gospel Abraham tells the rich man in hell that Lazarus was being comforted - so I don’t think that is in line with our belief of what happens in purgatory.
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Parables fall into Catholic *theolegumenon *(which means theological opinion) on what they mean. Personally, I can’t say for sure what Luke 16 is speaking about as I’ve tried to figure it out. If it is purgatory then why is there a great chasm with which no man may cross? Unless that chasm would eventually be taken away after Jesus’ resurrection.
And if it is hell, then how can a someone in hell do anything charitable?
And yet Jesus calls the rich man “the rich man” as he is without a name yet Lazarus has a name meaning Lazarus has his personhood (he is in heaven) the rich man is dead without an identity and in hell.

Also, in our present-day funerals, at the bidding prayers we pray that the angels may lead the soul into the bosom of Abraham - which I don’t think we take to mean purgatory since we’d pray that a soul may be worthy enough to go straight to Heaven!
In the Gospel reading today we are reading about the Old Covenant and as I understand it, souls could go to purgatory where they awaited Christ’s coming to them - there was a great gulf between the man who was tormented in Hell and Lazarus who was being comforted be Abraham, so I would be more inclined to take it as representing Heaven rather than purgatory… but that’s just my humble, uneducated reading of this passage - so I am open to being corrected!!🙂
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That’s a good perspective and one I’ve not considered.
 
Bishopite said:
Actually, not to sound rude, but the Catholic position on purgatory is not a “seperation from God” in the sense that they are banished from His presence. They are still in His care.
Purgatory is a state/place where the justified, the saved go after death and before the enter into the beatific vision. Every person in purgatory IS on his/her way to heaven and IS in God’s care
because they have died with their will in union (although imperfectly) with God. They are justified but not completely sanctified, but the are forever part of the elect.
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-Point taken, Bishopite! And of course it didn’t sound rude to correct me! As I said, I am quite uneducated on this topic and I was just giving my own reading of the Gospel passage. Looking back on my post, it was inaccurate to say that Purgatory is a ‘separation from God’ (at any rate, not in the same sense that Hell is); it is certainly more accurately described as a place of purification before one reaches Heaven.
 
thomasf said:
I don’t believe so. Doesn’t he ask to go and the demon or whoever tells him he can’t cross the canyon or breech? And that he can’t talk to those on the other side? Purgatory is a stepping stone to heaven, hell is permanent and there is no crossing over. If you are in purgatory, you’re eventually going to be in Heaven. You go to hell, you’re stuck there forever.
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How can you reconcile the fact that the rich man had concern for his friends and family with the fact that Hell is the complete absence of God’s grace? Concern is a grace of God.
 
NPC said:
-Point taken, Bishopite! And of course it didn’t sound rude to correct me! As I said, I am quite uneducated on this topic and I was just giving my own reading of the Gospel passage. Looking back on my post, it was inaccurate to say that Purgatory is a ‘separation from God’ (at any rate, not in the same sense that Hell is); it is certainly more accurately described as a place of purification before one reaches Heaven.
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Actually you know more about purgatory than most Catholic do! And I sensed that you did not mean “separation from God” as being the same as hell, but I thought the clarification would clear up any misconceptions for others who read these forums. I also don’t claim to be an expert on scripture either. 🙂
 
dbacks5439 said:
How can you reconcile the fact that the rich man had concern for his friends and family with the fact that Hell is the complete absence of God’s grace? Concern is a grace of God.
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Is concern a grace from God?
 
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