today's Mass readings (God sends Moses to Pharaoh / God says he will smite the Egyptians / Jesus: Come to me, you who are .. burdened)

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distracted

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Th (7-16)

Exodus 3;13-20:

Moses, hearing the voice of the Lord from the burning bush, said to him, “When I go to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ if they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ What am I to tell them?” God replied, “I am who am.” Then he added, “This is what you shall tell the children of Israel: I am sent me to you.” God spoke further to Moses, “thus shall you say to the children of Israel: the Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations. Go and assemble the elders of Israel, and tell them: ***The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has appeared to me and said: I am concerned about you and about the way you are being treated in Egypt; so I have decided to lead you up out of the misery of Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hittites and Jebusites, a land flowing with milk and honey. Thus they will heed your message. Then you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him: ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has sent us word. Permit us, then, to go on a three-day’s journey in the desert, that we may offer sacrifice to the Lord, our God. Yet I know that the king of Egypt will not allow you to go unless he is forced. I will stretch out my hand, therefore, and smite Egypt ***by doing all kinds of wondrous deeds there. After that he will send you away.”

**St Mt 11:28-30: **J

Jesus said: “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”
i sometimes wonder why God seemed to focus so much on the Hebrews. Why didn’t he send a message specificially for Pharaoh as well, a msg about repentance? Instead, he just “smote” the Egyptians… :confused:

just wondering… :hmmm::coffeeread::hmmm:*
 
distracted said:
i sometimes wonder why God seemed to focus so much on the Hebrews. Why didn’t he send a message specificially for Pharaoh as well, a msg about repentance? Instead, he just “smote” the Egyptians… :confused:

just wondering… :hmmm::coffeeread::hmmm
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It does give you a bit of insight into his character, doesn’t it?
 
Bear_Claw said:
It does give you a bit of insight into his character, doesn’t it?
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no… actually it doesn’t…

i thought his character was love…

and it is … So i am … still and always… (though not about things that matter) clue-less… :confused:
 
distracted said:
no… actually it doesn’t…

i thought his character was love…
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Love…
Love forced his will on Pharaoh so that the man had no free will to either submit or reject Moses’ request.
Love killed Pharaoh’s first-born without leaving him a choice to comply.

And here I thought that all men are equal in the eyes of god….clearly he didn’t like Pharaoh, much less love him.

The character that is described in this and other passages of the old testament is most certainly not love.
 
Bear_Claw said:
Love…
Love forced his will on Pharaoh so that the man had no free will to either submit or reject Moses’ request.
Love killed Pharaoh’s first-born without leaving him a choice to comply.

And here I thought that all men are equal in the eyes of god….clearly he didn’t like Pharaoh, much less love him.

The character that is described in this and other passages of the old testament is most certainly not love.
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well, i’m not surrpised an atheist would htink such things. I believe God is love… I believe that the Egyptians were likely given a chance to convert… now i think about it, Moses preached to the Pharaoh about God… (far as anone knows…)… at least he was SOME sort of witness for God and his truth… so the Egyptians were probably given time to repent… Most, apparently didn’t…

and another thing is that God is in control of a person’s soul even after death (especially then). He could, even after death, have saved the Egptians who drowned in the Red Sea… maybe they had no choice but to follow Pharaoh’s orders… but didn’t necessarily want to… It would have been death either way, probalby… God knows this, of course… and so… he could have dealt with them all after death… God is all powerful…

and i doubt you are a super atheist… How can one not believe in SOME kind of higher power… some being that created “all this…” things are too ordered for it to have been just some… big bang type of thing… and even if all of us came from the big bang… What (Who) caused the big bang???
 
distracted said:
well, i’m not surrpised an atheist would htink such things. I believe God is love… I believe that the Egyptians were likely given a chance to convert… now i think about it, Moses preached to the Pharaoh about God… (far as anone knows…)… at least he was SOME sort of witness for God and his truth… so the Egyptians were probably given time to repent… Most, apparently didn’t…
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Let’s look at some bible verses on this:
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to him, "On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. **I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go. **

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had foretold to Moses.

Doesn’t seem like Pharaoh had much of a choice in this matter to me.
 
Bear_Claw said:
Let’s look at some bible verses on this:
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to him, "On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. **I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go. **

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had foretold to Moses.

Doesn’t seem like Pharaoh had much of a choice in this matter to me.
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but we DO have choice… The Lord made him obstinate but Pharaoh could have just as easily chosen NOT to be obstinate… We Always have choice… Always… God never takes that away from anyone. But i feel that it was more Pharaoh who made himself obstinate … In other words, God knew Pharaoh was already obstinate… so he just used that obstinancy for his purposes…

Anyway, like i said somewhere else… if all we Christians had was the Bible … i would NOT be a Christian… or not a very good one… (devout one…)

If it weren’t for the Catholic Church (the Real Presence) i would not be a Christian, to speak of…

If i had never been in His real Presence, i would not be able to believe the Bible… but thank God… I was given this gift… Now i don’t always u/stand the bible… but i do accept it as the Word of God, written by imperfect humans… or through humans, i should say…

What is your spiritual background? what religion raised with… etc.?
 
distracted said:
but we DO have choice… The Lord made him obstinate but Pharaoh could have just as easily chosen NOT to be obstinate… We Always have choice… Always… God never takes that away from anyone.
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This is not meant sarcastically. Sorry if it comes across that way, but I can’t say it any other way.

Okay, I’m sorry, but I lol’ed at this. You are contradicting scripture, outright and blatantly. Pharaoh could have chosen not to be obstinate? Oh wow. I think you made my case for me. Thanks! 👋
 
Bear_Claw said:
This is not meant sarcastically. Sorry if it comes across that way, but I can’t say it any other way.

Okay, I’m sorry, but I lol’ed at this. You are contradicting scripture, outright and blatantly. Pharaoh could have chosen not to be obstinate? Oh wow. I think you made my case for me. Thanks! 👋
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if you say so.

interesting that that is all you comment on…

in any case, i pity those who do not have - or know - what i have/ know… you just don’t

know what you are missing…

but that’s your choice.

and again, God never takes that away from anyone…
 
distracted said:
if you say so.

interesting that that is all you comment on…
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I chose to comment on that specifically because of easy thread derailment.
But if you must know my religious background, I was raised Christian and I converted to Catholicism a few years ago before seeing all the smoke and mirrors.
in any case, i pity those who do not have - or know - what i have/ know… you just don’t know what you are missing…
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Nah, don’t pity us. I can’t speak for others, but I am MUCH better off now than I ever was, for so many reasons.
God never takes that away from anyone…
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We just established, through scripture that he does, actually.
If god was real, scriptures tell us that he for sure does take things away from people. He either allows the devil to take things from people, just to test them, like Job, or he plainly forces someone into harm’s way, like Pharaoh. Even if god was real I wouldn’t want to worship someone like that.
 
Bear_Claw said:
I chose to comment on that specifically because of easy thread derailment.
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no comprendo… :confused:
But if you must know my religious background, I was raised Christian and I converted to Catholicism
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Catholic IS Christian…
few years ago before seeing all the smoke and mirrors.
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meaning?
Nah, don’t pity us. I can’t speak for others, but I am MUCH better off now than I ever was, for so many reasons.
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if you don’t know what i have / know… then you can’t say… can you?
We just established, through scripture that he does, actually.
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did we? Scripture needs an interpreter and the interpreter is the Church… I haven’t yet read the Church’s interpretation of this psg… but… i kinda don’t need to and don’t really care… because, as stated, i have other “things” besides the Bible to keep me where i belong, in the Arms of my Savior…
If god was real, scriptures tell us that he for sure does take things away from people. He either allows the devil to take things from people, just to test them, like Job, or he plainly forces someone into harm’s way, like Pharaoh. Even if god was real I wouldn’t want to worship someone like that.
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we cannot create God in our own image, according to our own specifications… Its like falling in love with someone and then when you find out their flaws or (more specificially their) perceived flaws, you file for divorce because you want someone who is perfect… according to your criteria…

funny thing about human nature though… even if you found someone “perfect”, you wouldn’t want him/her… probably for that reason alone… he/she is perfect

and you are not…
 
Bear_Claw said:
Let’s look at some bible verses on this:
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to him, "On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. **I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go. **

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had foretold to Moses.

Doesn’t seem like Pharaoh had much of a choice in this matter to me.
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Actually, if one considers the fate of the men, women and children of Jericho…
what choice did they have?
They were in the way, so to speak. Manifest destiny operative?

“Oh *look *dear. Here comes a bunch of people. Maybe we should offer them
cool water and a picnic lunch.”

“What are they doing now?”

“Walking around the walls of our city. Lose the potato salad. I don’t think they want lunch.”​

Joshua 6
The wall collapsed, and the people stormed the city in a frontal attack and took it.
…putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and asses.

reen12
 
reen12 said:
Actually, if one considers the fate of the men, women and children of Jericho…
what choice did they have?
They were in the way, so to speak. Manifest destiny operative?

“Oh *look *dear. Here comes a bunch of people. Maybe we should offer them
cool water and a picnic lunch.”

“What are they doing now?”

“Walking around the walls of our city. Lose the potato salad. I don’t think they want lunch.”​

Joshua 6
The wall collapsed, and the people stormed the city in a frontal attack and took it.
…putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and asses.

reen12
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huh? :confused:
 
Bear_Claw said:
Yah, I’m with you on this one.

See? Atheists and Catholics CAN agree on stuff! 😛
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another thing they agree on is that the Bible doesn’t always make total sense… (well, it does but we don’t always know how to get that “sense”… get the right interpretation…)

which is why we need the Church…

where the Real Presence of Christ abides… :heaven:

if a person writes you a letter you can easily misunderstand his/her words…

you understand the person much better when you are in his/her very presence… especially when that Presence is God himself… who wants us to know Him… and that’s why He gave us that Presence… He wants us to know Him more than we want it…
 
distracted said:
i sometimes wonder why God seemed to focus so much on the Hebrews. Why didn’t he send a message specificially for Pharaoh as well, a msg about repentance? Instead, he just “smote” the Egyptians… :confused:

just wondering… :hmmm::coffeeread::hmmm:*
Click to expand...
Don’t you think God gave the Egyptians plenty of time to repent and to the right thing? Wasn’t that the purpose of the plagues that He sent?? He wasn’t sending them just to be hateful, but to show that He did have power. To give them a reason to change. He gave them chance after chance. And a couple of times, Pharaoh almost “bit”. But then he would change His mind. God didn’t just start killing off first-borns from the start.

As far as Him “making” Pharaoh obstinate… God never takes away free will. His obstancy was not something that God DID to him. It was something God allowed to happen. Our pastor likened it to someone hearing something in a homily that they didn’t like and becoming “obstinate” about it. The priest didn’t CAUSE the person to be obstinate, but it was a reaction. The causality is indirect. I think there is a little something lost in translation.
 
acadian said:
Don’t you think God gave the Egyptians plenty of time to repent and to the right thing? Wasn’t that the purpose of the plagues that He sent?? He wasn’t sending them just to be hateful, but to show that He did have power. To give them a reason to change. He gave them chance after chance. And a couple of times, Pharaoh almost “bit”. But then he would change His mind. God didn’t just start killing off first-borns from the start.
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i figured this out … just had to think about it for awhile…
As far as Him “making” Pharaoh obstinate… God never takes away free will. His obstancy was not something that God DID to him. It was something God allowed to happen. Our pastor likened it to someone hearing something in a homily that they didn’t like and becoming “obstinate” about it. The priest didn’t CAUSE the person to be obstinate, but it was a reaction. The causality is indirect. I think there is a little something lost in translation.
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i triedto tell Bear Claw this… he wasn’t buying it…

but if i know one thing about God it is that he gives us freedom and never takes that away… until death, that is… :eek:
 
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