Today's Mass readings (God's people cry out to Him / Re-marriage = adultery / Celibacy is God's preference?)

[distracted]

**August 14, 2009 **

Reading 1
Jos 24:1-13

Joshua gathered together all the tribes of Israel at Shechem,
summoning their elders, their leaders,
their judges and their officers.
When they stood in ranks before God, Joshua addressed all the people:
“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel:
In times past your fathers, down to Terah,
father of Abraham and Nahor,
dwelt beyond the River and served other gods.
But I brought your father Abraham from the region beyond the River
and led him through the entire land of Canaan.
I made his descendants numerous, and gave him Isaac.
To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau.
To Esau I assigned the mountain region of Seir in which to settle,
while Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.

“Then I sent Moses and Aaron, and smote Egypt with the prodigies
which I wrought in her midst.
Afterward I led you out of Egypt, and when you reached the sea,
the Egyptians pursued your fathers to the Red Sea
with chariots and horsemen.
Because they cried out to the LORD,
he put darkness between your people and the Egyptians,
upon whom he brought the sea so that it engulfed them.
After you witnessed what I did to Egypt,
and dwelt a long time in the desert,
I brought you into the land of the Amorites
who lived east of the Jordan.
They fought against you, but I delivered them into your power.
You took possession of their land, and I destroyed them,
the two kings of the Amorites, before you.
Then Balak, son of Zippor, king of Moab,
prepared to war against Israel.
He summoned Balaam, son of Beor, to curse you;
but I would not listen to Balaam.
On the contrary, he had to bless you, and I saved you from him.
Once you crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho,
the men of Jericho fought against you,
but I delivered them also into your power.
And I sent the hornets ahead of you that drove them
(the Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites,
Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites)
out of your way; it was not your sword or your bow.

“I gave you a land that you had not tilled
and cities that you had not built, to dwell in;
you have eaten of vineyards and olive groves
which you did not plant.”

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 136:1-3, 16-18, 21-22 and 24

R. His mercy endures forever.
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
for his mercy endures forever;
Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his mercy endures forever;
Give thanks to the LORD of lords,
for his mercy endures forever.
R. His mercy endures forever.
Who led his people through the wilderness,
for his mercy endures forever;
Who smote great kings,
for his mercy endures forever;
And slew powerful kings,
for his mercy endures forever.
R. His mercy endures forever.
And made their land a heritage,
for his mercy endures forever;
The heritage of Israel his servant,
for his mercy endures forever;
And freed us from our foes,
for his mercy endures forever.
R. *** His mercy endures forever. ***

Gospel
Mt 19:3-12

Some Pharisees approached Jesus, and tested him, saying,
***“Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”***He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning
the Creator made them male and female and said,
For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother
and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?
So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
***Therefore, what God has joined together, man must not separate.” ***
They said to him, “Then why did Moses command
that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss her?”
***He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts
Moses allowed you to divorce your wives,******but from the beginning it was not so.
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife
(unless the marriage is unlawful)
and marries another commits adultery.”***His disciples said to him,
“If that is the case of a man with his wife,
it is better not to marry.”
He answered, “Not all can accept this word,
but only those to whom that is granted.
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so;
some, because they were made so by others;
some, because they have renounced marriage
for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven.
Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”

God leads his people. I just don’t understand why God chose that particular part of the world to give to His people… and Why did they have to take land away from another group?? One of the mysteries of life…

I love the psg about marriage. Some poeple seem to take marriage very lightly these days, When you think about it, if a person can’t stay committed to one person why does anyone think he / she will stay married to the 2nd person, much less the 3rd or 4th… but then i guess fidelity isn’t much valued anymore… so the attitude is: who cares?

Some polygamous sects obviously violate this (& etc ) scripture psg… If it is wrong to MARRY even one person once one has already married someone, how much more wrong in the eyes of God is it to marry several? Polygamy = misogyny & discrimination (not to mention immorality)… since rarely does anyone advocate a woman having more than one husband…

In the Gospel it seems Jesus is saying that celibacy is preferred by God and i believe this to be true (though convincing my body of this is another story!!! :banghead::hypno.

i have found out the hard way how true it is that celibacy is best… anyone who CAN maintain sexual purity this way should…

 

[brb2]

**August 14, 2009 **

]He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning
the Creator made them male and female and said,
For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother
and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?
So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
***Therefore, what God has joined together, man must not separate.

”In the Gospel it seems Jesus is saying that celibacy is preferred by God*** …

Not really, but according to Paul … you will have less ‘stress’ if you can stay celibate.

 

[diggerdomer]

In the Gospel it seems Jesus is saying that celibacy is preferred by God and i believe this to be true (though convincing my body of this is another story!!! :banghead::hypno.

i have found out the hard way how true it is that celibacy is best… anyone who CAN maintain sexual purity this way should…

That’s not what the Gospel says. And not what the Catholic Church teaches. You’re of course free to prefer celibacy or think it’s preferable.

 

[Brendan]

God leads his people. I just don’t understand why God chose that particular part of the world to give to His people… and Why did they have to take land away from another group?? One of the mysteries of life… .

They didn’t take anything that didn’t belong to them. God owns all and gave them that land.

Yes there were people there, but if you were given the deed to a house from the legal house owner and there were other people living there, would you not have the right to evict them, or at least charge them rent?

 

[distracted]

That’s not what the Gospel says. And not what the Catholic Church teaches. You’re of course free to prefer celibacy or think it’s preferable.

my body does NOT prefer it…

ever gone 100 years without sexual gratification of any kind?

neither have I but I have gone what SEEMS to be 100 years…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

my body does NOT prefer it…

You and cheetoh are always playing tag with making the readings of the day!
I keep having to do a double take, because I think I read this thread when I haven’t!

Your body is in you, and you are in your body. You are also your body.

In the first reading, Balaam of Beor is the “prophet” of God most high.
Balaam was not an Israelite, any more than Melchizadech king of Salem (peace).
The story only focuses on the Israelites as they came into the land, but it does not focus on what the inhabitants were like who were being evicted.

People (even Sts. Like Thomas ) are quick to focus on statements of Jesus like (paraPhrase) “If I had done in Sodom what was done in you, they would have repented…” But the thing is, in every case I have looked at God already had done signs and wonders – Sodom was RESCUED by Abraham, and it is on the return journey that he meets the priest of God most high – Melchizadech.
It is After this great sign and indebtedness that the Sodomites litteraly decide f***k God.

Here too, in the readings, God showed Balak through a prophet (well known) that he was going to LOOSE the battle – but Balak still chose to atack them. Scripture also says of Balaam (the prophet too, whom the donkey’s mouth was opened) that although he blessed the Israelites, he none the less taught Balak how to destroy them – through the use of loose women. Temple prostitutes. The scriptures say this was done out of envy (not just jealousy), apparently Balak could not stand that the source of his revelation would bless anyone that did not pay him for it…
He wanted a monopoly.

There are instances of polyAndry (many men/husbands) in history. But it does seem that women are less prone to multiplication of a mistake than men are. Women are more in touch with their feelings (setting evolution aside, just looking at the way things typically are) – and I think that the bonds which sexual union are meant to graft are more strongly felt by them. That’s not to say a proud and arrogant womanizing man is immune – for the damage really is lasting. They just take longer to figure it out… and decide it hurts enough to stop (if they are not too proud to admit they are wrong. The Ted Bundy syndrome…)

It does amaze me, however, having gone back to college – to what degree this mind over pain/conscience has affected even women today. Listening to a young lady brag about her friend having stand up sex in the girls bathroom (in a “Catholic” college no less) – and chatting on in almost a bragging jealous manner was quite a shock to me. (In fact, this was said in public and all – but there wasn’t the slightest hint of redness in her face until she looked at me – sort of backing away – and it was obvious of all the students men and women standing there, that I was a bit different at heart.) What is thought of someone on the outside, popularity, can even make a woman conquest oriented.

now, I am not a prude – and I think sexual relations are wonderful. There is nothing that I can imagine here (setting aside heaven) that is more joyful to me than looking at that person I married in the face; seeing her eyes look back at me; and just holding her with no restrictions, no demands, no use-ing ness, no=nothing… I don’t even care whether or not it goes any further – it’s the complete trust and reconciliation that I so much desire. It has been over a year since I even touched her; we have a young girl Marygrace, and the fullness of joy when I cut the umbilical cord here three months back. That child was the end of our relations in many ways – because she was used to hurt me last year. Threatening to adopt her, etc. etc. My body has urges, but I don’t know of a more effective turn-off than a repeated violation of trust; and the use of the body and even “victim” status as a means of manipulation and vindictiveness.

I don’t want to point a spolight on you. But I hope and pray that you can overcome a lower self opinion which your past may tempt you toward. You have apparently bonded with some people and left a part of yourself with them; But I hope some day you have a friend whom you can look in the eye, and not cast your own down. Presenting a blank body to whomever looks at you…
When you have been given lemons, sometimes it is best to make lemon-aid.

I have a marriage to look forward to – the wedding feast of the Lamb; the heavenly gathering of joy. I can’t help but think if the consummation of the world is a wedding – that God thinks weddings are especial and Good. Sour grapes, saying “I didn’t want it anyway, or God preferrs non-marriage (celebacy is a different matter)”, belongs to those who don’t enter this final wedding either as a groom, bride, or as a bridesmaid. cf. John the Baptist.

Pax Christi,
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. (excuse spl. mistakes if any)

 

[distracted]

i don’t u/stand this… Sodom was destroyed…

Here too, in the readings, God showed Balak through a prophet (well known) that he was going to LOOSE the battle – but Balak still chose to atack them. Scripture also says of Balaam )

i don’t u/stand all this about Balaam and Balak…

 

[distracted]

They didn’t take anything that didn’t belong to them. God owns all and gave them that land.

Yes there were people there, but if you were given the deed to a house from the legal house owner and there were other people living there, would you not have the right to evict them, or at least charge them rent?

i’m not saying i think it was wrong… God is never wrong…

but i’m sure nonChristians look at this and see hypocricy … Christians say they don’t believe in stealing but…

that kinda thing…

 

[distracted]

I don’t want to point a spolight on you. But I hope and pray that you can overcome a lower self opinion which your past may tempt you toward. You have apparently bonded with some people and left a part of yourself with them; But I hope some day you have a friend whom you can look in the eye, and not cast your own down. Presenting a blank body to whomever looks at you…
if any)

I’m not sure how you got this from what i said in this one post… You’ve probably read other of my posts??/

so true that, as you seem to imply, married persons ought to be friends. But it is not easy to be my friend… I speak my mind and do/say other things that people don’t like… However, i feel it is their fault we don’t get along…

Jesus said You will be hated by all… i figure if a person is hated “by all” or even one… because he is trying to do what Christ wants… oh well…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

i don’t u/stand this… Sodom was destroyed…

i don’t u/stand all this about Balaam and Balak…

Sorry, I know I go too fast. I missed my medication some how, and have to deal with the racing thoughts. I’ll try to slow down.

Balaam was a pagan and an associate of one of the kings who tried to kill off Israel from the desert on their way to the promised land;
See Numbers 22:5 – In your own bible; This is the KJV, which is handy – not preferred.

Numbe 22:5 He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
Numbe 22:6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot[know] that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed.
…
Numbe 22:9 And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?
Numbe 22:10 And Balaam said unto God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,
Numbe 22:11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
Numbe 22:12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

The story goes on, and is well worth the read. But the main point is that Balaam was not an Israelite, yet God – the LORD God, spoke through him. God was already working mercifully with the Pagans during the so called “invasion” of Israel.
You are right, Sodom was destroyed – (emphatic, but not shouting) BUT NOT WITHOUT GODS HELP BEFORE THEY WERE DESTROYED.

Genes 14:10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
Genes 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
Genes 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
Genes 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Genes 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
Genes 14:15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
Genes 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
Genes 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king’s dale.
Genes 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Genes 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Genes 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Genes 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
Genes 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Genes 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Genes 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

God SAVED Sodom by the hands of Abraham – and it is after their indebtedness was undeniable; that they Choose to defy God in the manner of the homosexual sodomization of the Angels sent to Lot’s house in Sodom. Those who are the very representation of God in as much as he can be present physically; I know I am both being too specific and too ambiguous, I don’t know how to explain very well when I am torn up inside.

It is Abraham’s nephew whom they LATER revile as he offers up his two virgin (but loose/sinful) daughters – as Sodomites desired to sexually rape and dominate the very messengers of God in preference to these half/sluts (no offense meant about women in general – seriously – Lot’s wife is also a sodomite, and being perverted she, herself, in lusting after the city’s pleasures, turns back to it – and is turned to a pillar of salt;the exact meaning of which is obscure in some ways – but clear in others. Her daughters are like unto her; but more obedient while their father Lot is in control – but their disposition is made clear in later scriptures in terms of the incestuous practices of the Pagan worship of Sodom. )

It is very important, in my eyes, that the King of Sodom is there speaking with the figure of Jesus himself, The priest-King Melchizadech, king of Peace. God Called sodom to peace, and they raped him instead. It is in the very attempt, while Lot flees – that Sodom is destroyed. Not because of a weakness, but because of a hideous attempt to force it upon God who had mercy on them.

I don’t have the quotes, right now, perhaps I will later. But Balaam – in likeness to sodom, teaches the king Balak how to get God to destroy Israel. By the use of loose women; promiscuity; engaging them in the worship of false Gods – also pornographic (a picture of the Harlot) imitation of marriage. The imagery is sooooo intense. The “veil” of the harlot hides their faces, their bodies becoming a thing for fertility satisfaction – bragging, etc. Whereas, in Revelation, or marriage – the Veil is to be removed. The beloved is looked upon.

Is it any wonder that God speaks of heaven as Face to Face? Seeing him how he is?

And Moses in Glory was forced to wear a veil by the israelites to hide the Godliness from the people – they feared it; but not to —
oh never mind. Perhaps later. I need to take a walk and clear my head.

Peace, --Andrew.

 

[Nita]

**August 14, 2009 **

God leads his people. I just don’t understand why God chose that particular part of the world to give to His people… … One of the mysteries of life…

…

I’m a late comer to this thread. Hope you don’t mind a little levity!
Reading your question reminded me of Jewish lament:
“For forty years God led us through the desert. Why did He have to choose the only land in the area without oil on it to give to us?”

 

[Nita]

**August 14, 2009 **

In the Gospel it seems Jesus is saying that celibacy is preferred by God and i believe this to be true (though convincing my body of this is another story!!! :banghead::hypno.

i have found out the hard way how true it is that celibacy is best… anyone who CAN maintain sexual purity this way should…

I recall being taught that celibacy had a higher “spiritual rank” than the married state. But, it was a celibacy freely chosen as a sacrifice – a giving up of the married state to give oneself more fully to God. Generally, such an offering is lived out as a vocation to the priesthood or religious life. But it also includes lay people who choose celibacy in order to have more time to devote themselves to God and others.

A couple other points were also part of my understanding:

1. It is not good to remain celibate if one recognizes a calling by God to marriage.
   (I’m not sure how God communicates a “vocational” call to virginity outside of the religious life, but it has certainly happened.)
2. Celibacy is always required of an unmarried person. For someone who desires and seeks marriage, there is no special “rank” for remaining celibate until one finds one’s spouse. All are required to do that.

 

[Nita]

I’m a late comer to this thread. Hope you don’t mind a little levity!
Reading your question reminded me of a Jewish lament I once heard:
“For forty years God led us through the desert. Why did He have to choose the only land in the area without oil on it to give to us?”

 

[distracted]

It is Abraham’s nephew whom they LATER revile as he offers up his two virgin (but loose/sinful) daughters – as Sodomites desired to sexually rape and dominate the very messengers of God in preference to these half/sluts (no offense meant about women in general – seriously – Lot’s wife is also a sodomite, and being perverted she, herself, in lusting after the city’s pleasures, turns back to it – and is turned to a pillar of salt;the exact meaning of which is obscure in some ways --w.

thanks… but uh… i never read anything in thebible about Lot’s daughters being sluts…

i hatethat word anyway because it is always used just for women…

men are generally more promiscuous than women…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

thanks… but uh… i never read anything in thebible about Lot’s daughters being sluts…

i hatethat word anyway because it is always used just for women…

men are generally more promiscuous than women…

Um, I was also talking about Sodom and sodomy – those are sins of Men???
( A woman really can’t shove her parts inside another person…I suppose a breast might work, but I have never heard of that one! )

Also, I have had a pedophile priest at my parish, please don’t think I am being biased just because of women; These are undeniably women, though … So what is the problem? Just a personal irritation or do you think I am lying?

Read Genesis: 19:5-6; Lot had the right to give his daughters in marriage, and saw that as less evil than the Sodomization of men. Notice also the son’s in laws in Genes 19:12 – so that he had done this with at least a few daughters.

But, what is this in Genesis 19:26, but Lot’s wife – the one who taught the daughters from youth doing except showing desire for the lifestyle she once knew?

And what is this in Genesis 19:32 –
Come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him that we may preserve the seed of our father.

They didn’t ask permission, and two against one – their father being old – you aren’t going to say that was his doing only!
This is the same as date rape.

–Peace.

 

[brb2]

Sorry, I know I go too fast. I missed my medication some how, and have to deal with the racing thoughts. I’ll try to slow down.

oh never mind. Perhaps later. I need to take a walk and clear my head.

.

 

[distracted]

Read Genesis: 19:5-6; Lot had the right to give his daughters in marriage, and saw that as less evil than the Sodomization of men. .

they were NOT men … they were angels…

and just becuase Lot acted a certain way doesn’t meant that’s the way God would have wanted him to act.

as to the rest of your post, i don’t u/stand it…

(not sure i want to)

 

[distracted]

I recall being taught that celibacy had a higher “spiritual rank” than the married state. But, it was a celibacy freely chosen as a sacrifice – a giving up of the married state to give oneself more fully to God. .

how about I “sacrifice” due to not being able to find a man who is worthy?

that’s hardly a sacrifice… (except for living without “gratification”) uch:

it would be a much greater sacrfice if i were to marry any one of the “men” I have been attracted to in the past… :banghead::hypno:

(no joke)

 

[Huiou_Theou]

they were NOT men … they were angels…

In the first place it was men who were committing the sin.
In the second place the angels are spoken of as “men” which is how they appeared.
In the third place It is irrelevant if it were male donkeys or male angels – the act is still wrong; The fact that it is male angels, representatives of him who saved Sodom shows how EXTREME the sin of these MEN was.

Strain the gnat if you will …

and just becuase Lot acted a certain way doesn’t meant that’s the way God would have wanted him to act.

What has that to do with the daughters being reasonably thought of as HALF sluts?
Every man in Sodom was destroyed, along with every daughter of Lot’s who was married to a man in Sodom. God made it clear he would spare the city for any small number of Just people – he even appears to go beyond his agreement and give the just and unjust a chance to escape. What evidence, then, do you have that these women who were spared, who’s mother turned back, who’s sisters all refused to come or believe their father but stayed with their husbands — what evidence do you have that these women were not at least HALF sluts as I said before ?

I even qualified the adjective (go back and look) in the first post to give them the benefit of the doubt; for I don’t know for certain when they accepted the full evil of Sodom’s ways. They are halfway/sluts.

They did repay good and mercy with rape and evil; even after they had seen the destruction of Sodom for the exact same sin.

They committed THE SAME sin against their father whom it was that saved THEM. I am not saying they were actively sluts all their life – I am saying Lot acted with what was within his right to do at that time – offering his daughters in marriage to prevent a worse sin; and I have more evidence that it wasn’t an evil choice than evidence that it was.

You disagree with me for even suspecting women of something they DEMONSTRATE later as true?? – and yet you are willing to accuse LOT for doing something against God’s will which is the ONLY alternative ?

If that is TRUE the angels should have let him BURN with Sodom. They didn’t need Lot’s protection – that’s for SURE.

As it is, LOT was to take with HIM those whom would Go – it was ONLY to HIM that Justice and mercy are offered – not to the others directly, but ONLY through Lot. Abraham begged for the JUST MAN not for a specific man by name.
Therefore, the offer made to LOT is tied to his justice and God’s mercy both.

[quoted]
as to the rest of your post, i don’t u/stand it…

(not sure i want to)
That is obvious, and at very least you don’t want to understand – for you could have asked questions about things which are not clear; and I do listen to other people – Even Nita has brought up things which I have accepted in preference to my own thoughts in the past, and often she adds the bit of clarity and precision my own statements lack.

I am curious, do you think marriage is for your own worship and happiness ? – rather than your own salvation ?. Does it occur to you that God may give you a man, prepared for your salvation, who does not at all appear “worthy” to your eyes? The angels decided Sodom’s destruction or salvation; Sodom rejected and dominated them as “unworthy”

A challenge:
If you heard God call you to marry a man (the definition of Vocation – a CALLING/TELLING) – and you thought this man “unworthy” – would you believe, or would you claim he was a devil or that God was a devil ?

By what measure would you choose – your own feelings / preferences; or would you look to some standard outside yourself for verification ?

It should be obvious that I have a LOT of respect for Nita – and if you will not listen to me, perhaps you will listen to her; and perhaps she can say things better than I can – but If you will not listen even to her, I will say nothing more.

May God find a way to bless you in your misery.

 

[distracted]

In the first place it was men who were committing the sin.
In the second place the angels are spoken of as “men” which is how they appeared.
In the third place It is irrelevant if it were male donkeys or male angels – the act is still wrong; The fact that it is male angels, representatives of him who saved Sodom shows how EXTREME the sin of these MEN was.

Strain the gnat if you will …

What has that to do with the daughters being reasonably thought of as HALF sluts?
Every man in Sodom was destroyed, along with every daughter of Lot’s who was married to a man in Sodom. God made it clear he would spare the city for any small number of Just people – he even appears to go beyond his agreement and give the just and unjust a chance to escape. What evidence, then, do you have that these women who were spared, who’s mother turned back, who’s sisters all refused to come or believe their father but stayed with their husbands — what evidence do you have that these women were not at least HALF sluts as I said before ?

I even qualified the adjective (go back and look) in the first post to give them the benefit of the doubt; for I don’t know for certain when they accepted the full evil of Sodom’s ways. They are halfway/sluts.

They did repay good and mercy with rape and evil; even after they had seen the destruction of Sodom for the exact same sin.

They committed THE SAME sin against their father whom it was that saved THEM. I am not saying they were actively sluts all their life – I am saying Lot acted with what was within his right to do at that time – offering his daughters in marriage to prevent a worse sin; and I have more evidence that it wasn’t an evil choice than evidence that it was.

You disagree with me for even suspecting women of something they DEMONSTRATE later as true?? – and yet you are willing to accuse LOT for doing something against God’s will which is the ONLY alternative ?

If that is TRUE the angels should have let him BURN with Sodom. They didn’t need Lot’s protection – that’s for SURE.

As it is, LOT was to take with HIM those whom would Go – it was ONLY to HIM that Justice and mercy are offered – not to the others directly, but ONLY through Lot. Abraham begged for the JUST MAN not for a specific man by name.
Therefore, the offer made to LOT is tied to his justice and God’s mercy both.

[quoted]
as to the rest of your post, i don’t u/stand it…

(not sure i want to)/
That is obvious, and at very least you don’t want to understand – for you could have asked questions about things which are not clear; and I do listen to other people – Even Nita has brought up things which I have accepted in preference to my own thoughts in the past, and often she adds the bit of clarity and precision my own statements lack.

I am curious, do you think marriage is for your own worship and happiness ? – rather than your own salvation ?. Does it occur to you that God may give you a man, prepared for your salvation, who does not at all appear “worthy” to your eyes? The angels decided Sodom’s destruction or salvation; Sodom rejected and dominated them as “unworthy”

A challenge:
If you heard God call you to marry a man (the definition of Vocation – a CALLING/TELLING) – and you thought this man “unworthy” – would you believe, or would you claim he was a devil or that God was a devil ?

By what measure would you choose – your own feelings / preferences; or would you look to some standard outside yourself for verification ?

It should be obvious that I have a LOT of respect for Nita – and if you will not listen to me, perhaps you will listen to her; and perhaps she can say things better than I can – but If you will not listen even to her, I will say nothing more.

May God find a way to bless you in your misery.

i could be wrong but it appears you have an anger problem.

you at least have a lack of charity problem. You also seem to have a presumption problem.

so i will decline to answer further… I don’t generally deal with hostile individuals.