Today's Mass Readings (Purgatory? / One Church)

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******Ephesians 4:1-6:

Brothers and Sisters: I, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have recieved, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, ***striving to preserve the unity of the Spirit ***through the bond of peace; one Body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. / Psalm 24: Lord, this is the people that longs to see your face…

St. Luke 12:54-59: Jesus said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west you say immeidately that it is going to rain - and so it does; and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot and so it is. You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? Why do you not judge for yoursleves what is right? If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to setttle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the jduge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."

My thoughts on this last passage: Our greatest opponent is the devil (& those who work for him)… and we are to settle matters with them (overcome their “ways”) in this life… or will end up in Purgatory until we have “paid the last penny”… (This passage ties in with St. Matthew 18:23…)
 
Interesting that most think of purgatory as a place of punishment.
That is not my view, nor, I believe, the view of John Paul II, who wrote:

*" In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father “at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints” (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to “cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit” (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. **Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection **(cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.*

The complete writing is at:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html

Nowhere does the Holy father refer to purgatory as punishment, but rather, for those judged to be saved, a time to complete the striving for perfection to which we are all called (and most fall short) on this earth.
 
piperspop said:
Nowhere does the Holy father refer to purgatory as punishment, but rather, for those judged to be saved, a time to complete the striving for perfection to which we are all called (and most fall short) on this earth.
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Well, from what i have read, it is certainly no picnic…

I don’t call it punishment either… but God seems to want us to do our Purg here on Earth… and so i try to do that… because to wait until later… is worse… (more excruciating…). So say the saints…

so… no won der some call it punishment…
 
distracted said:
******Ephesians 4:1-6:

Brothers and Sisters: I, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have recieved, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, ***striving to preserve the unity of the Spirit ***through the bond of peace; one Body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. / Psalm 24: Lord, this is the people that longs to see your face…

)
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urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have recieved, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
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Oh, were we to do this together, all Christians, how much closer would unity be?!
Jon
 
JonNC said:
May the Holy Spirit free us from our blindness and pride, and make us uncomfortable with our disunity.
Jon
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Amen!
Now that’s real!

Keeping on topic:

Does the Bible tell us anywhere that our “having to have faith in Jesus Christ” needs to be done before we leave this earth by means of death?
 
JonNC said:
May the Holy Spirit free us from our blindness and pride, and make us uncomfortable with our disunity.
Jon
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for sure… but some people don’t seem to want unity… so it is difficult… to “get there.” I don’t know where you are at spiritually, but my position is that we should all be united in the Church Christ founded… and, as you know, most non-Catholics don’t like that idea…
 
I couldn’t agree more on unity, it is Christ’s will that we ALL seek it. I am a lay member of the Traditional Anglican Communion, which has requested “full, coporate unity with the Holy See”.
Here is a link to a speech given by my bishop entitled “Christian Unity - It’s Not a Matter of Choice”. I hope you enjoy reading it.

themessenger.com.au/News/20080723.htm
 
piperspop said:
I couldn’t agree more on unity, it is Christ’s will that we ALL seek it. I am a lay member of the Traditional Anglican Communion, which has requested “full, coporate unity with the Holy See”.
Here is a link to a speech given by my bishop entitled “Christian Unity - It’s Not a Matter of Choice”. I hope you enjoy reading it.

themessenger.com.au/News/20080723.htm
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If all Christians were truly following Christ, there would be unity, at least as far as the Church goes… but some Christians are like the ones in today’s gospel: they try to “get in” (Heaven) but are “not strong enough” because they don’t want to go through that “narrow” gate… (don’t want to do what is necessary to be saved)… They want comfortable Christianity… Americanized Christianity… :rolleyes:
 
Punishment in that case is corrective. It is purifying and painful, (because sin causes suffering–the more sin is expiated, the more the pain turns to bliss–of course, those who refuse to have their sins expiated suffer eternally).

This is why the Catechism promulgated by John Paul II speaks of “temporal punishment” in regards to Purgatory and Indulgences (indulgences being all Christians throughout the ages helping each other “pay the last penny”)
 
Genesis315 said:
Punishment in that case is corrective. It is purifying and painful, (because sin causes suffering–the more sin is expiated, the more the pain turns to bliss–of course, those who refuse to have their sins expiated suffer eternally).

This is why the Catechism promulgated by John Paul II speaks of “temporal punishment” in regards to Purgatory and Indulgences (indulgences being someone helping you “pay the last penny” from the treasury of merit)
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It sounds like you know all about expiating… 🙂

Well put…
 
Thanks. In regards to indlugences, I should have said “all Christians throughout the ages helping each other” instead of “someone helping.” That’s where the beauty lies 🙂
 
Genesis315 said:
Thanks. In regards to indlugences, I should have said “all Christians throughout the ages helping each other” instead of “someone helping.” That’s where the beauty lies 🙂
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yes, theere is a great beauty to the Catholic teaching on Purgatory… about the souls there praying for us and we can offer our sufferings for them… I feel i can relate to them better than i can to people on Earth (who are often too worldly and not into Jesus veyr much… ) Of course, that’s not saying much… :o

I wish i had known this teaching yrs ago… It is such a pity when sufferings go to waste…

God bless…
 
distracted said:
******Ephesians 4:1-6:

Brothers and Sisters: I, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have recieved, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, ***striving to preserve the unity of the Spirit ***through the bond of peace; one Body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. / Psalm 24: Lord, this is the people that longs to see your face…

St. Luke 12:54-59: Jesus said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west you say immeidately that it is going to rain - and so it does; and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot and so it is. You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? Why do you not judge for yoursleves what is right? If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to setttle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the jduge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."

My thoughts on this last passage: Our greatest opponent is the devil (& those who work for him)… and we are to settle matters with them (overcome their “ways”) in this life… or will end up in Purgatory until we have “paid the last penny”… (This passage ties in with St. Matthew 18:23…)
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These are the same lame arguments for purgatory that I heard when I was Catholic. Why does Jesus not speak of Purgatory outright like he did his father’s kingdom? Why does Paul fail to even hint toward there being a place of purging? Why did Jesus tell the guy next to him on the cross that he would be in paradise with him today instead of telling him that he would have to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin in purgatory first? I already know the real answer to that but curious as to what you have to say about it.
 
SIA said:
These are the same lame arguments for purgatory that I heard when I was Catholic. Why does Jesus not speak of Purgatory outright like he did his father’s kingdom? Why does Paul fail to even hint toward there being a place of purging? Why did Jesus tell the guy next to him on the cross that he would be in paradise with him today instead of telling him that he would have to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin in purgatory first? I already know the real answer to that but curious as to what you have to say about it.
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Because not EVERYTHING is explained in the Bible, only things necesssary for salvation, and belief in purgatory is not one of those. However, since evryone in heaven is perfect and free from sin, and almost no one is perfect and free from sin when they die, it is logical that there is a state where people are brought to perfection, ie purgatory.
 
SIA said:
These are the same lame arguments for purgatory that I heard when I was Catholic. Why does Jesus not speak of Purgatory outright like he did his father’s kingdom? Why does Paul fail to even hint toward there being a place of purging? Why did Jesus tell the guy next to him on the cross that he would be in paradise with him today instead of telling him that he would have to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin in purgatory first? I already know the real answer to that but curious as to what you have to say about it.
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You just don’t know where to find the Scriptures for Purg… st. Paul wrote Corinthians, right? Look at 1 Cor 3;13… and etc…

Jesus told parables that allude to Purg… st. Matthew 18:23… etc…

the thief on the cross? For one thing, does anyone know what the meaning of "paradise’ is?? Purg is paradise compared to this life… (from all that I’ve heard. Yes, there is terrible sufferin in the lower depths of Purg but at least one knows one is on his way to Heaven… In any case, the Catholic Church teaches that once one is baptised and if one doesn’t sin after baptism, one would (if he were to die) go straight to Heaven… What better baptism than to be in the Presence of Christ and hear him say that he is forgiven…?

So anyway… I will leave it at that…
 
piperspop said:
Because not EVERYTHING is explained in the Bible, only things necesssary for salvation, and belief in purgatory is not one of those. However, since evryone in heaven is perfect and free from sin, and almost no one is perfect and free from sin when they die, it is logical that there is a state where people are brought to perfection, ie purgatory.
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actually Purgatory IS in the bible… if one knows where to look…

1 Cor 3;13

St. Matthew 18:23

Rev 21:27

and many, many other passages…
 
Having been mormon for much of my life, I still believe in a purgatory/spirit prison of sorts.

A **person’s temperament **and level of skills has a lot of bearing on how quickly they can advance to a high level of energy a spirit in heaven would have. A person’s temperament effects how much a person can let go of their sins and except fully Christ’s forgiveness of our sins, also how quickly they can progress toward the goal of Heaven.

I look at life right now as a team effort, each of us helping each other toward the goal of Heaven, including the beatitudes that Christ had taught, and how much we can practice Unconditional Love, of all people, and be able to forgive one another as part of the Unconditional Love we can have.

I have studied countless Near Death Experiences since the early 1980’s, and people were at many different levels of spiritual attainment. Also when you do die, life in the spirit world will be constant progression, kinda like in the military, where they require you to constantly progress to a higher level while in the military. To be stagnant is to fall backward.

I do believe in a constant progression, and not a sudden advancement to 100 percent perfection at the time of death. Some people at the time of death will be at a far greater level advancement, as they pass from their body, and will have less work to do to progress to the highest level of attainment in Heaven.

I compare it to very dirty clothing. Dirty clothes would have to go through extra stages of cleaning. You would not want to put a very dirty shirt in your clean clothes. Very dirty means extreme cleaning.
 
Geocacher said:
I compare it to very dirty clothing. Dirty clothes would have to go through extra stages of cleaning. You would not want to put a very dirty shirt in your clean clothes. Very dirty means extreme cleaning.
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so, are you Mormon NOW??
 
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