Together? The true faith?

[reen12]

Christians each have their own idea, of that which constitutes the true faith.

“That they may be one, Father, even as You and I are one.”

God allows many Churches, now, for His own reasons.
Might it be that - in His eyes, each Church reflects facets
of His truth - in *chiaroscuro, *where a given teaching highlights
that which He wishes bathed in His light.

The Christian Churches may yet be in their infancy, even the
earliest of the Churches.

Perhaps Christ waits to come in His glory, until the Christian
Churches pray together, in caritas:

“As we wait, in joyful hope, for the coming of our Savior…”

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -
the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

Each walking, in the light of his/her own conscience, ever
praying to the Holy Spirit, for wisdom and counsel.

That all may be one.

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reen12

 

[cheese_sdc]

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -
the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

Each walking, in the light of his/her own conscience, ever
praying to the Holy Spirit, for wisdom and counsel.

I would agree with this, except that I would see that Catholicism’s contribution (along with the Orthodox) is the idea of sacramentality - the sacredness of this world - that we don’t live in a world of illusion, rather, the world is real and imbued with the sacred.

 

[jesusluv]

I pretty much agree with you Reen, but, just know that we will be enlightened…

“As we wait, in joyful hope, for the coming of JimmyB’s response”

 

[thecoach]

I pretty much agree with you Reen, but, just know that we will be enlightened…

“As we wait, in joyful hope, for the coming of JimmyB’s response”

ROFL!!!

 

[thecoach]

Christians each have their own idea, of that which constitutes the true faith.

“That they may be one, Father, even as You and I are one.”

God allows many Churches, now, for His own reasons.
Might it be that - in His eyes, each Church reflects facets
of His truth - in *chiaroscuro, *where a given teaching highlights
that which He wishes bathed in His light.

The Christian Churches may yet be in their infancy, even the
earliest of the Churches.

Perhaps Christ waits to come in His glory, until the Christian
Churches pray together, in caritas:

“As we wait, in joyful hope, for the coming of our Savior…”

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -
the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

Each walking, in the light of his/her own conscience, ever
praying to the Holy Spirit, for wisdom and counsel.

That all may be one.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/ThreeChristiansa.jpg

reen12

Wow…this is beautiful…Im speechless

 

[Robbinson]

I hope you are right - but we need to be careful as one could easily extend this thinking to other religions and belief systems which begins to look very pluarlistic.

Now, my wife would applaud this (she is a confessed Christian pluralist). I share some of these tendencies, but only within the confines of scripture. One thing I find attractive about the Catholic faith is it is more inclusive, ultimately, regarding the possibility of salvation for non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians then the Protestant view that there is no way to salvation without confession of Christ. Scripture is on both sides of that issue.

I do like the message of the OP though (and it is beutiful image).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[reen12]

quote: Robbinson

…One thing I find attractive about the Catholic faith is it is more inclusive, ultimately, regarding the possibility of salvation for non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians then the Protestant view that there is no way to salvation without confession of Christ. Scripture is on both sides of that issue…

This is what I wished to do, Brian. To call out to each Christian,
imploring each to look towards the gifts given, to each Church,
even if for only a moment. I’m grateful to you, for your own post.

“Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of the faithful,
inkindle in them the fire of Your love.
Send forth Thy Spirit…and You shall renew
the face of the earth.”

reen

 

[reen12]

quote: cheese_sdc

I would agree with this, except that I would see that Catholicism’s contribution (along with the Orthodox) is the idea of sacramentality - the sacredness of this world - that we don’t live in a world of illusion, rather, the world is real and imbued with the sacred.

The Church of Rome, Churches in union with her, and the Orthodox Churches,
no doubt wish to share the thought of the gift of sacramentality, I would think -
just as you have done. As would the Anglican Church, in their sacramental life.

quote: reen12

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -

the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

reen12

 

[JonNC]

Pray for true unity, but until then, pray for the Holy Spirit’s blessings on all of us.

Very moving, Reen.
Jon

 

[Our_Refuge]

=reen12;3959440]Christians each have their own idea, of that which constitutes the true faith.

“That they may be one, Father, even as You and I are one.”

God allows many Churches, now, for His own reasons.
Might it be that - in His eyes, each Church reflects facets
of His truth - in *chiaroscuro, *where a given teaching highlights
that which He wishes bathed in His light.

Why would God send His Son to establish One Church with a set of unchangeable dogmas and at the same time approve of man-made Churches with conflicting dogmas?
There can only be ONE Truth. How can God be pleased with religions that approve of artificial birth control, divorce and remarriage, homosexual marriage etc? The teaching of “Faith Alone” and the" Bible Alone" is either true or false.
God wills that all be of ONE faith, ONE Church, ONE truth.

 

[ckempston]

Why would God send His Son to establish One Church with a set of unchangeable dogmas and at the same time approve of man-made Churches with conflicting dogmas?
There can only be ONE Truth. How can God be pleased with religions that approve of artificial birth control, divorce and remarriage, homosexual marriage etc? The teaching of “Faith Alone” and the" Bible Alone" is either true or false.
God wills that all be of ONE faith, ONE Church, ONE truth.

I believe God is in control. Although He wills there to be one Faith, I believe He has allowed the multitude of faiths to occur for a reason. Perhaps the multitude of faiths’ purpose is to force the Catholic church to reform in the ways that it can and increase its efforts in outreach and general influence in the world. That is, if it is, indeed, the Church that Jesus intended to be the “one church.” I think we can see God’s dealings with Israel as examples of this type of thing happening. Although God used Babylon to “punish” the Israelites, this doesn’t necessarily mean he approved of everything the Babylonians did. Just my 2 cents.

 

[onetimeposter]

I would agree with this, except that I would see that Catholicism’s contribution (along with the Orthodox) is the idea of sacramentality - the sacredness of this world - that we don’t live in a world of illusion, rather, the world is real and imbued with the sacred.

I tend to believe that Catholicism is but one way to experience the sacred.

 

[onetimeposter]

The teaching of “Faith Alone” and the" Bible Alone" is either true or false.
God wills that all be of ONE faith, ONE Church, ONE truth.

Catholicism is either true or false. If your argument were true, this could be said of any religion.

What is important, is a persons relationship with God and experience of the sacred.

Which is why their are actually many truths.

If a Buddhist experiences the sacred and forms a relationship with God…who are you to tell that Buddhist that he is not following the truth?

 

[reen12]

Christians share many beliefs.
[Truth -------> that which conforms with reality.]

As His Father said to Moses: I AM.
“Tell them I AM sent me…”

Jesus, as well, says - I am I AM.
“He Who sees Me, sees the Father.”

Not ‘I am the path that leads to truth,’ rather I *am *Truth.
I am Reality, I am the foundation and the guarantor - of meaning itself.

“In Him were all things made.”
“In His light, we see light.”

---

Jesus of Nazareth was saying: I am fundament of reality.
“He who sees Me, sees the One Who sent Me.”

Gerard Manley Hopkins, the poet, with his blessed heart, saw Who God is -
The Master of the universe - and he saw how God is…in the universe that He made:

“The world is charged with the grandeur of God.”

Jesus is Reality - He is fundament, and the very ground of all sacramentality. sacrare = to consecrate.]

“In Him, were all things made.”

---

Each Christian shares critical beliefs.

God is
God creates
God is meaning itself
‘the world is charged with the grandeur of God,’
Christ is Word of God
Christ is Logos [Word]
Logos, as meaning - the Word is the informing Principle - of all that has been, and is, created.

“The world is charged with the grandeur of God.”

A Christian may say, with joyful heart,
Jesus is Reality. And more than the ‘truth,’ He is truth - the Source of meaning itself.

Each Christian shares, in acknowledging the above.
Each Christian may say: Because of I AM, I exist -
I ‘stand out’ from the background - of the void of non-being.
God’s very intentionality - holds me in existence.

All is not: “Where do we differ?”
Rather, what do we share?

St. Francis holds a little bird.
Francis, more than most, saw this little bird as having his life from God. A creature created of His intentionality.

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“The world [and this little bird] are charged - with the grandeur of God.”

reen12

 

[reen12]

Catholicism is either true or false. If your argument were true, this could be said of any religion.

What is important, is a persons relationship with God and experience of the sacred.

Which is why their are actually many truths.

If a Buddhist experiences the sacred and forms a relationship with God…who are you to tell that Buddhist that he is not following the truth?

Hello, onetimeposter. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

I began reading Eastern works, 30 years ago.
*
The following is that which I learned, from this reading.

“The Tao is the mother of the 10,000 things.”
“One who knows does not speak - one who speaks does not know.”

Life, in reality, is a flow of phenomena.

All created things rise, endure and pass away.

Each phenomenon is either pleasant, unpleasant, or of
neutral valence.

In Buddhism, one can choose to address koans,
or one may choose shikantaza, with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism.
One may escape the wheel of rebirth, in a lifetime, by not incurring karmic effect.
Then - one is not reborn.

Siddartha Gautama, the Buddha, the Enlighted one, a prince,
spoke of a way to transcend suffering.

Siddartha offered a path - the ‘Way.’

mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/buddhism/beliefs.html

Taoism’s chief texts are the Tao Te Ching…

acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

and the texts of Chuang Tzu.

truetao.org/chuang/

I think that the questions posed by human beings, over the millenia,
remain quite similar in nature -

what am I doing here? how did I get here?
why do all creatures, in the end, cease existing?
what happens after death? does life have any intrisic meaning?
or is life given meaning, by deity - or does one give one’s
own life meaning? [Camus: The Myth of Sisyphus.]

I think that testimony, in terms of one’s beliefs, is understood
as testimony = This is that which I hold to be reality,
and this is why I hold these beliefs.

Having lived many decades, now, I have come to understand -
as did members of thousands of cohorts before me -
that actions really do testify louder than words. Would that
I could remember this, better than I sometimes do.

Thank you for sharing your own thoughts, onetimeposter.
Your post helped me to clarify my own thought.

reen12

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

I pray for the day when the flock will unite, when we will restore the faith of the early Church, and the Pope will serve as our unity around the leadership of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[reen12]

earliest = true

The assumption of primogeniture,
where ‘earliest’ = true and chosen,
an either/or reality, is surely of interest
to all who acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth
as Lord.

A given Christian may point out that - the Holy Spirit
did stay with the Church, as Rome no longer gave complete
and sure and certain reflection of God - and the things of God,
in ways in which He considers needful.

“In His light, we see light.”

Primogeniture’ - ‘all to the first born,’
is man’s way…not, of necessity, God’s way.

Easau learned this, to his sorrow.
The eldest - supplanted by the younger.
Joseph, the youngest, chosen over his elder brothers.
David - the youngest of Jesse’s sons, made king.

Perhaps when Christians acknowledge the gifts - given to each Church,
God will hear, and respond to - the cry of "Maranatha" -
cried out by each Christian.

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -
the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

reen12

 

[PerryJ]

I believe God is in control. Although He wills there to be one Faith, I believe He has allowed the multitude of faiths to occur for a reason. Perhaps the multitude of faiths’ purpose is to force the Catholic church to reform in the ways that it can and increase its efforts in outreach and general influence in the world. That is, if it is, indeed, the Church that Jesus intended to be the “one church.” I think we can see God’s dealings with Israel as examples of this type of thing happening. Although God used Babylon to “punish” the Israelites, this doesn’t necessarily mean he approved of everything the Babylonians did. Just my 2 cents.

The multitude of faiths is the result of original sin causing people to view Christianity from a worldly perspective and then acting according to their own free will.

The thought that the Catholic Church needs to be changed by the impact of other denomiantions misses the point of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is based upon Jesus Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit in all of its teachings. The other faiths although well intentioned and have many great gifts do not have the full understanding of the faith.

The multitude of faiths is the greatest reinforcement that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. Christ while on the Earth saw the different factions of Pharisees, Saducees etc. arguing points of belief. Christ left the Holy Spirit with us to be our guide and teacher so that man would know the truth. As before man has clouded his vision with wordly thoughts; however, Christ left the one Church behind to guide us. How can one argue that Christ would leave the world just as he had in the past. Many Churches arguing with each other. He left one Church guided by the Holy Spirit. Would Christ hide his message in a book and then expect people to puzzle piece together their salvation?

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world with over 1 billion members and by far the largest charitible organization in the world. I am curious about the statment concerning reform and outreach as the Church has been and continues to be the single most important organization in the world. It created the rule of law and the univerisity system. The Jesuits were the largets contributors to seimology and astronomy to name just a few. Western civilization was built via the Church through science, the arts and architecture. The Church during the middle ages started and supported the vast majority of universities and caused the advancement of science. A list of Catholic priests that are the founding fathers of sciences is extensive. I could go one; however, I will conclude that the Churches impact on the world has been one of overwhelimng good and continues to be.

I would agree that many people within the Catholic faith need to reform. This is much different than the Church needing reform.

 

[ckempston]

The multitude of faiths is the result of original sin causing people to view Christianity from a worldly perspective and then acting according to their own free will.

So you would reject that God uses outside influences (as per my examples) to discipline his people? My reasoning is rock solid. God did it in the Old Covenant, and he does in under the New Covenant.

The thought that the Catholic Church needs to be changed by the impact of other denomiantions misses the point of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is based upon Jesus Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit in all of its teachings. The other faiths although well intentioned and have many great gifts do not have the full understanding of the faith.

Question begging.

The multitude of faiths is the greatest reinforcement that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. Christ while on the Earth saw the different factions of Pharisees, Saducees etc. arguing points of belief. Christ left the Holy Spirit with us to be our guide and teacher so that man would know the truth. As before man has clouded his vision with wordly thoughts; however, Christ left the one Church behind to guide us. How can one argue that Christ would leave the world just as he had in the past. Many Churches arguing with each other. He left one Church guided by the Holy Spirit. Would Christ hide his message in a book and then expect people to puzzle piece together their salvation?

Based on conversations on other boards, Catholics seem to disagree amongst themselves as much as Protestants disagree with one another. The Catholic church’s claim of “unity” only seems to be titular. There is very little substance to it, if you ask me.

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world with over 1 billion members and by far the largest charitible organization in the world. I am curious about the statment concerning reform and outreach as the Church has been and continues to be the single most important organization in the world. It created the rule of law and the univerisity system. The Jesuits were the largets contributors to seimology and astronomy to name just a few. Western civilization was built via the Church through science, the arts and architecture. The Church during the middle ages started and supported the vast majority of universities and caused the advancement of science. A list of Catholic priests that are the founding fathers of sciences is extensive. I could go one; however, I will conclude that the Churches impact on the world has been one of overwhelimng good and continues to be.

Probably a big reason the Catholic church is the biggest religion is because it keeps people like me on the rolls despite the fact that I’ve left. It also counts people who are nominal Catholics and could hardly be called Christians by anyone’s standard. The numbers are quite clearly inflated. Nobody has called into question the efforts of the Catholic church to help the poor. Helping the poor “the most” doesn’t make a thing true.

I would agree that many people within the Catholic faith need to reform. This is much different than the Church needing reform.

The church is the people. One body, many parts. It does not exist independent of them. That’s where you’re missing the point. Just like Catholics believe (and I do as well) that someone can lose his or her salvation, an entire church can lose its status as Jesus’ church. See the churches in Revelation.

 

[PerryJ]

So you would reject that God uses outside influences (as per my examples) to discipline his people? My reasoning is rock solid. God did it in the Old Covenant, and he does in under the New Covenant.

Question begging.

Based on conversations on other boards, Catholics seem to disagree amongst themselves as much as Protestants disagree with one another. The Catholic church’s claim of “unity” only seems to be titular. There is very little substance to it, if you ask me.

Probably a big reason the Catholic church is the biggest religion is because it keeps people like me on the rolls despite the fact that I’ve left. It also counts people who are nominal Catholics and could hardly be called Christians by anyone’s standard. The numbers are quite clearly inflated. Nobody has called into question the efforts of the Catholic church to help the poor. Helping the poor “the most” doesn’t make a thing true.

The church is the people. One body, many parts. It does not exist independent of them. That’s where you’re missing the point. Just like Catholics believe (and I do as well) that someone can lose his or her salvation, an entire church can lose its status as Jesus’ church. See the churches in Revelation.

I do not reject that God disciplines his people and he may well discipline Catholics that do not follow his path. However, Catholics believe in redemptive suffering for the world and a great many suffer in this world for others to come to know Christ. People in the faith maybe suffering for others just as Mother Theresa did.

I agree many Catholic people do not follow the faith as they should. This does not change the fact that there is one faith. This is amplified in the Unites States were moral relativism is rampant.

True the count maybe off; however, all Churches experience the same issue. Are there not Protestants counted that no longer belong or go to Church. I left a Protestant denomination and still receive mail.
Even if your statement was true the numbers are so far apart that tens of millions would not impact the fact.

The people within the Church can lose salvation. Within the Church their will be goats and sheep as the Bible states. In the faith there are goats that will not make it to heaven. This does not mean the faith is wrong. To the contrary is shows the strength of the faith. The Catholic Church is one with Christ and is protected by the Holy Spirit.

Now that I have answered all of your questions please answer these same questions concerning your faith. Do you have people in your faith that fall short and do not meet standards? How do you know your faith will not be chatised? How do you know people within your faith will not be chastised? Does your faith believe in Total Depravity as many Protestant faiths believe? If so how can you support chastisement? Does your faith support free will or predestination? Again as many Protestant believe in predestination how can you support chastisment. Where is your faith in giving to the poor. Mother Theresa started as one individual with nothing in her pockets; yet, she raised a ministry that encompasses 77 countries and takes care of the sick and dying of every race and religion. Do you have an equal in your faith? If our faith is in so much need of reform why did Christ support her to this degree? How much support does your faith support science? How many in your faith are the Father’s of scientific disiplines? How many hospitals did your faith start in the dark ages? How many translations of ancient documents such as of Aristotle’s did your faith manually scribe to keep them in existence? I find many willing to challenge the Catholic faith and state we need reform etc.; however, few appear to ask their own faith the same questions. They also seldom give the faith the respect it deserves for bringing knowledge to the world that it never before had.

I apologize for the parsing as I am still learning how to use the quotes.