Together? The true faith?

[ckempston]

I do not reject that God disciplines his people and he may well discipline Catholics that do not follow his path. However, Catholics believe in redemptive suffering for the world and a great many suffer in this world for others to come to know Christ. People in the faith maybe suffering for others just as Mother Theresa did.

I agree many Catholic people do not follow the faith as they should. This does not change the fact that there is one faith. This is amplified in the Unites States were moral relativism is rampant.

True the count maybe off; however, all Churches experience the same issue. Are there not Protestants counted that no longer belong or go to Church. I left a Protestant denomination and still receive mail.
Even if your statement was true the numbers are so far apart that tens of millions would not impact the fact.

The people within the Church can lose salvation. Within the Church their will be goats and sheep as the Bible states. In the faith there are goats that will not make it to heaven. This does not mean the faith is wrong. To the contrary is shows the strength of the faith. The Catholic Church is one with Christ and is protected by the Holy Spirit.

Now that I have answered all of your questions please answer these same questions concerning your faith. Do you have people in your faith that fall short and do not meet standards? How do you know your faith will not be chatised? How do you know people within your faith will not be chastised? Does your faith believe in Total Depravity as many Protestant faiths believe? If so how can you support chastisement? Does your faith support free will or predestination? Again as many Protestant believe in predestination how can you support chastisment. Where is your faith in giving to the poor. Mother Theresa started as one individual with nothing in her pockets; yet, she raised a ministry that encompasses 77 countries and takes care of the sick and dying of every race and religion. Do you have an equal in your faith? If our faith is in so much need of reform why did Christ support her to this degree? How much support does your faith support science? How many in your faith are the Father’s of scientific disiplines? How many hospitals did your faith start in the dark ages? How many translations of ancient documents such as of Aristotle’s did your faith manually scribe to keep them in existence? I find many willing to challenge the Catholic faith and state we need reform etc.; however, few appear to ask their own faith the same questions. They also seldom give the faith the respect it deserves for bringing knowledge to the world that it never before had.

I apologize for the parsing as I am still learning how to use the quotes.

In answer to your questions:

Do you have people in your faith that fall short and do not meet standards? * YES
*
How do you know your faith will not be chatised? I DONT

How do you know people within your faith will not be chastised? I DONT

Does your faith believe in Total Depravity as many Protestant faiths believe? NO

*If so how can you support chastisement? * N/A

*Does your faith support free will or predestination? * FREE WILL

Again as many Protestant believe in predestination how can you support chastisment? N/A

The rest of your questions are irrelevant to the Truth, but I’ll answer some of them. Islam did as much for science and preserving ancient writings in the Middle Ages as the Catholic Church did. They were performing brain surgeries when Catholics were trying to exorcise “demons.”

*Where is your faith in giving to the poor? Mother Theresa started as one individual with nothing in her pockets; yet, she raised a ministry that encompasses 77 countries and takes care of the sick and dying of every race and religion. *My church gives more than most that I know of, not that I’m bragging. I personally find this question totally irrelevant.

Do you have an equal in your faith? Don’t understand this question.

If our faith is in so much need of reform why did Christ support her to this degree? Missed something here as well.

How much support does your faith support science? My “faith” does not mandate that anybody believe much of anything outside the Bible.

*How many in your faith are the Father’s of scientific disiplines? * Are you claiming that there are a lot of Catholics who hold this title? As I recall, the church persecuted and Copernicus and Galileo for saying the earth wasn’t the center of the universe. Hardly worthy of a scientific attaboy.

How many hospitals did your faith start in the dark ages? NONE

How many translations of ancient documents such as of Aristotle’s did your faith manually scribe to keep them in existence? NONE.

 

[reen12]

For Christians, debate continues, as to ‘how am I saved?’

Are works requiste to my salvation?
How am I to worship?
May the sacrifice of Jesus be re-offered to His Father?
Is the Eucharist a re-enactment of Calvary?
May Christ’s sacrifice be re-offered?
Is this solely a memorial meal? Or is the Eucharist both?

Each of these ever-foreground questions is a matter of
profound division - as are matters pertaining to the locus
of authority.

“Will I be saved?” “Am I saved?”
“By whom am I justified?”
“Was my salvation wrought, totally -
by the salvific act of Jesus?”
“Are my works ‘part’ of my salvation?”
“Or solely acts - that increase sanctification,
based, as they are, on the commands of Jesus?”

---

Were Churches driven out of paradise - as were Adam and Eve -
having dared to:
‘define’ the procession of the Trinity - trespassing on Godhead
-offering thought on uncreated light?

Or making null, the very words of Jesus - as to the need for
baptism? Or declaring that the Body of Christ sufficed,
no need to consume both ‘species,’ as their Lord clearly
commanded. Exulting one reality - at the expense of others?
Making a ‘commodity’ of grace?

reen12

 

[reen12]

Like Israel, wandering in the desert, for 40 years, are not the
Churches, too, now subject to this wandering in a wilderness -
talking past one another - as did those gathered, to build the
Tower of Babel? A confusion of tongues, rather than the
gift of tongues?

As God did not ‘leave’ Israel, as she wandered in the desert,
He leaves not His Church - now divided into many.

If one poses the question: How can one have life in them,
if they eat and drink not of His body and blood, Jesus Himself
addressed this variation on a similar question:
“With man, this would not be possible. With God, all things are
possible.”

As a Father does not leave his children, when they quarrel,
neither does He abandon now. How was Israel to follow the
command of God, to consume the animals offered in sacrifice,
when Israel was held captive in Babylon - with the Temple
far away?

“By the waters of Babylon we sat and wept, when we remembered thee, O Jerusalem.”

As Adam and Eve, East of Eden, remembered the Garden.

quote: reen12, from another thread

…may they be one, Father, as You and I are one…

Perhaps God allowed the reformation to occur, so that the ‘parts’ -
which would come to state theological reality, as it is,
will one day cohere - forming His true Church…
all pride of place, rancor, and mutual accusation, set aside - through His amazing grace.

reen12

 

[onetimeposter]

I just want a relationship with God. I’ve got to learn to let go of any impediments that stand in my way.

 

[PerryJ]

Copernicus was a Catholic clergy and his heliocentric theory was supported by the Church. Galileo and his theory was also supported by the Church until he wanted the Church to state that his theories should be mandated as laws. The Church did reject that his theories should be held out as laws. He was free to publish in other areas; however, he was told to stop publishing in this area after falsely accussing the Pope of not supporting his theories. In fact he published several theories after the action of the Church with the Churches blessing. His punishment was to stay with the Medici family which was one the most powerful and influential families of their time; in which, he lived a very good life. The Church was correct in its assessment that these theories should not be stated as law. In Galileo’s own lifetime Kepler proved that his theories were incorrect.

Did you know that the Catholic Church actually created, bought and gave telescopes to scientist in order to study astronomy? Did you know that many cathedrals were used to study astronomy prior to the 1600s? At that time more advanced telescopes made them obsolete. Actually some of Copernicus theories were actually proved by priest with the use of cathedrals?

I apologize for digressing from the main point of the thread. I find that myths about the Catholic Faith abound and some times these need to be addressed.

I appreciate the response to my questions.

God bless everyone and may we all be servants to Christ!

 

[Ilroy]

The church is the people. One body, many parts. It does not exist independent of them. That’s where you’re missing the point. Just like Catholics believe (and I do as well) that someone can lose his or her salvation, an entire church can lose its status as Jesus’ church. See the churches in Revelation.

So, based on the bolded part, you are stating that Christ was either a liar, or wrong, which in turn would make Him not God which in turn would make Him a liar.

Mt. 16:
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Nope, His Church cannot lose it’s status as His Church.

Mt. 28:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Nope, not here either.

 

[Our_Refuge]

=ckempston;3961962]I believe God is in control. Although He wills there to be one Faith, I believe He has allowed the multitude of faiths to occur for a reason

.

Does this “multitude of faiths” also include Buddhism and Hinduism? After all you say that God is in control and has allowed a multitude of faiths.

Perhaps the multitude of faiths’ purpose is to force the Catholic church to reform in the ways that it can and increase its efforts in outreach and general influence in the world

.
Reform is what way? Change her doctrines?

indeed, the Church that Jesus intended to be the “one church.” I think we can see God’s dealings with Israel as examples of this type of thing happening

.

But where is this “one church”? Isn’t the “church” spoken of in the bible the one church established by Christ.? Did this church suddenly disappear after the death of the last apostle?

 

[reen12]

I just want a relationship with God. I’ve got to learn to let go of any impediments that stand in my way.

I do hear you, in this, onetimeposter.
Earlier in the day, I had composed a lengthy reply to your earlier post,
conveying my understanding of Eastern thought.
I chose not to post this, fearing that the topic of the
thread would not be held to, if I posted same.
I had simply wished to convey to you that I did
understand what you wrote, in your earlier post.
The good thing about turning all over to God, is that He knows
what it is the heart, and He knows of our efforts to reach out to Him.
The beautiful reality is, that He is with each of us -
long before we could even begin to reach out to Him.
Unlike so many realities, in life, God rejoices in any little step that we can take.
He really loves us.

I ask God to walk with you, each moment.
I am glad that you posted, onetimeposter.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Why do people say about you, God?
People saying who you are and saying
that they are the true ones.
It is more quiet here. Thank you for this water.
It is not rushing along. I can drink some good.
This is very nice grass, God.
It is peaceful here just like you said.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reens

 

[JRKH]

Christians each have their own idea, of that which constitutes the true faith.

“That they may be one, Father, even as You and I are one.”

God allows many Churches, now, for His own reasons.
Might it be that - in His eyes, each Church reflects facets
of His truth - in *chiaroscuro, *where a given teaching highlights
that which He wishes bathed in His light.

The Christian Churches may yet be in their infancy, even the
earliest of the Churches.

Perhaps Christ waits to come in His glory, until the Christian
Churches pray together, in caritas:

“As we wait, in joyful hope, for the coming of our Savior…”

The Church of Rome, and all churches in union with Rome -
the nature and infinite value of redemptive suffering

Orthodox - profound respect for mystery and the sacred

Reformation Churches, and those churches, in our own day,
who ever call to mind, the place of scripture and grace, in the life of a Christian.

Each walking, in the light of his/her own conscience, ever
praying to the Holy Spirit, for wisdom and counsel.

That all may be one.
reen12

While I don’t want to get into an argument over the relative merits of various fiaths, I must disagree with the basic premise.
God has nor “Allowed” different religions for His own uses, rather men, in their pride have caused rifts and splits in the body of Christ. Satan has used this to these to spread confusion among the faithful.
God will not destroy these various false churches for two reasons.

1. Because He won’t interfere with our free will,
2. Even through some sects lacking in the fullness of Truth some may be saved.

If your premise were true and God was the author of this there might be a half dozen or so different “denominations” with each representing a different facet or Gift of the Spirit. There wouldn’t be hundreds/thousands of different sects forming and splitting and reforming.
If your premise were true, the various Churches would be, at least, in some sort of communion with each other. There would not be any Jack chick, or “Whore of Babylon” nonsense. Understand, I’m not saying that we catholics are innocent in the casting of aspersions, but these examples make teh point that there is a lot of negative attached to these divisions. Much more than just doctrinal differences.

I do see some of what your saying, but I’m afraid I see much more of the Wolf in all these divisions than I see of the Shepard.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I just want a relationship with God. I’ve got to learn to let go of any impediments that stand in my way.

Amen to this!!!

I’ll add that we must get rid of impediments and seek out God’s gifts that will help us to Live and Grow in Him.

Peace
James

 

[reen12]

One doctine that all Christian Churches hold in common,
is that concerning original sin.

The existence of original sin is one the hinge doctrines
of all Christian churches. A hinge doctrine, on which much turns.
Original sin is defined as an ontologic reality - a sin in man’s
very ‘being,’ inherited through the sin of Adam.

Each Christian Church recognizes that - without the existence of original sin,
there would be no need for a savior from same.

The catechism of the Church of Rome, states the criticality of this doctrine.
[from the Vatican wesite] # 389

The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot
tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

The Christian Churches hold this doctrine in common -
the existence of Original sin. They differ, in the meaning
ascribed to the waters of baptism, in re - what do these
saving waters effect?

reen