Toleration of homosexuals, women priests

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brendan1986

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Before I start, I’d like to point out I do respect gay people as much as anyone else, but when it comes to trampling on childrens rights, so they can release their parental urges, that is unacceptable.

Des Morris wrote a book a few years back, called the human animal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Animal_%28TV_series%29

He said in it, that the reason why we are becoming more tolerable of gays today is because of the threat of over-populaton. It’s sort of a reaction to the crisis (if there really is one). To clarify, we are being extra nice to them, gving them all the things they want, so this would somehow slow population growth.

Would the whole womens priests campaign have anything to do with this, considering women didn’t seem to have a problem with not allowed ordaination through all those centuries either?, it’s only in modern times, like with the gay rights campaigns that it’s all of a sudden important…

What do you think, make any sense?
 
I don’t think that’s it. I think it has more to do with the overall secularization of society and loss of religious faith. If you don’t understand theology and the concept of natural law from a theological point of view - and you don’t think that God plays any role in human sexuality - then an attitude of “Do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t hurt someone in an obvious way” is naturally going to develop.

Homosexuality and women priests used to be highly tolerated and even encouraged in places like pre-Christian Greece, and they certainly didn’t have overpopulation problems then. When Christianity came, it was radical in its rejection of these things. That’s why I think it’s more an issue of paganism/secularity/ignorance of theology.
 
This is very inaccurate. We don’t tolerate gays, we accept them. They didn’t choose to be gay, just like you didn’t choose to be straight. I’ve never once had a choice if I liked women or not, I just feel an attraction towards them. I didn’t wake up one day and decide to like women. Overpopulation on the other hand, is certainly a threat, and eventually the Catholic church will accept most forms of contraception and birth control.
 
This is very inaccurate. We don’t tolerate gays, we accept them. They didn’t choose to be gay, just like you didn’t choose to be straight. I’ve never once had a choice if I liked women or not, I just feel an attraction towards them. I didn’t wake up one day and decide to like women. Overpopulation on the other hand, is certainly a threat, and eventually the Catholic church will accept most forms of contraception and birth control.
baloney.
 
Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

Code:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
 
Before I start, I’d like to point out I do respect gay people as much as anyone else, but when it comes to trampling on childrens rights, so they can release their parental urges, that is unacceptable.

Des Morris wrote a book a few years back, called the human animal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Animal_%28TV_series%29

He said in it, that the reason why we are becoming more tolerable of gays today is because of the threat of over-populaton. It’s sort of a reaction to the crisis (if there really is one). To clarify, we are being extra nice to them, gving them all the things they want, so this would somehow slow population growth.

Would the whole womens priests campaign have anything to do with this, considering women didn’t seem to have a problem with not allowed ordaination through all those centuries either?, it’s only in modern times, like with the gay rights campaigns that it’s all of a sudden important…

What do you think, make any sense?
This doesn’t make any sense at all. Only people who are very wealthy are concerned about there being too many peasants. Many people do not know that billions of dollars are paid every year to some farmers in the United States to grow nothing.

There is a definite direct connection between the radical feminists and gay rights supporters.

Peace,
Ed
 
This is very inaccurate. We don’t tolerate gays, we accept them. They didn’t choose to be gay, just like you didn’t choose to be straight. I’ve never once had a choice if I liked women or not, I just feel an attraction towards them. I didn’t wake up one day and decide to like women. Overpopulation on the other hand, is certainly a threat, and eventually the Catholic church will accept most forms of contraception and birth control.
Do you believe being gay is an irreversible situation like being straight? If so, on what do you base this? Of course, having same sex attraction does not exclude anyone from the Church.

The Catholic Church will never accept artificial birth control.

Peace,
Ed
 
Do you believe being gay is an irreversible situation like being straight? If so, on what do you base this? Of course, having same sex attraction does not exclude anyone from the Church.

The Catholic Church will never accept artificial birth control.
Irreversible is not the word I would choose. Our natural desire is a better choice of words.
I base it on the fact that I’ve never had to question my desire for women. It’s been there since I was a young teen. Almost every person I’ve ever asked this question to has told me they never felt like their attraction was a choice. It’s an instinct thing - not something at the level of thought. Of course people some people are bisexual too.

The church will accept birth control, when the world has 12 billion people struggling for food and other resources…
 
Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

Code:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
👍 I love that. Did Bishop Sheen write it all or is it (partially?) yours?
 
Since people appear to have forgotten, or never read in the first place, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, let me quote again for you what it says on homosexuality:
Catechism:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
The bold is mine. Please note: “men and women… must be accepted” and “Every sign of unjust discrimination … should be avoided”
 
Nothing in here is to be considered discrimination. It’s merely a discussion. Accepting the fact that one is gay has nothing to do with acting out on those disordered inclinations. Homosexuals are accepted in the Church. The homosexual act, however, is not to be accepted or tolerated. Nor, for that matter is fornication to be accepted or tolerated from heterosexuals. It’s not bigotry it’s right and wrong.
It may not be a choice be the act IS a choice, either a homosexual act or fornication. The stricture of no sex outside of marriage applies to both orientations. Unfortunatly for homosexuals God has made lawful, sacramental marriage reserved only for individuals of the opposite sex.

Peace
 
NFP is an acceptable way to space children or not have more children than you can afford.

ABC is another subject completely and studies show that only <1% or <5% of NFP-only couples get divorced which is significantly lower than the general population.

Homosexuals are loved just like any other human being, but the facts do not stand in their favor. Children missing one parent, especially a father, have serious problems later in life. Men and women are not the same and we learn different things from our mothers and fathers. Gender studies in children are always done separately because male and female are not the same and develop at different rates. Neither is better than the other, but the sexes need to cooperate and children need both mother and father.

70% of inmates don’t have a good relationship with their father. Girls who don’t know their fathers get their periods earlier (especially if they live with a man who is not their biological father and not related to them) and are more likely to become sexually active at a younger age. Homosexuals males are also likely to get anal cancer, and a nasty kind that doesn’t respond well to treatments. They have even shorter lifespans than smokers because of their dangerous lifestyles.

I’d also like to point out that “overpopulation” is a myth manufactured by the liberal media. Everyone in the world could all move to Texas and we’d be less densely populated that some cities are right now.

People are choosing to have fewer children which will mean the population is going to decline over time. At first, it will appear to increase as people live longer, but the old people will eventually die off and there isn’t going to be enough people to replace them. Europe is going to have serious problems as the average woman has 1.85(?) kids when you need 2.1 to make up for those who die without children.
 
Irreversible is not the word I would choose. Our natural desire is a better choice of words.
I base it on the fact that I’ve never had to question my desire for women. It’s been there since I was a young teen. Almost every person I’ve ever asked this question to has told me they never felt like their attraction was a choice. It’s an instinct thing - not something at the level of thought. Of course people some people are bisexual too.

The church will accept birth control, when the world has 12 billion people struggling for food and other resources…
I predict that birth control will be widely discouraged and condemned by many mainline denominations as well as secular forces, when it becomes apparent that declining fertility rates are leading to economic depression. Yes, even China will reverse its policy.
 
Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

Code:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
I’ve always believed Bishop Sheen said things beautifully. Well, he’s done it again. Thanks be to God.
 
Sheen + Catechism = Good in regards to homosexuality.

On Sodomy

But to press upon the conscience of my fellow Christians the danger and depravity of homosexualism, or rather Sodomy, let me ask you this : Would you ever inject fecal matter into your blood ? Why not ? Because firstly nature clearly and strictly tells us that it must be seperated from the body, and expunged therefrom. Now a doctor knows full well why : He will say, among other things, that fecal matter is toxic and is, ultimately, dangerous to the body, though a necessary part of life (removing useless, dangerous or unneeded elements from the things we consume that those things good and necessary may be imparted to the body for its living and health).

The homosexual act, especially in males, but even between males and females or females and females, must be condemned, not only because it is depraved and unnatural, or contrary to nature, but also for its very real health risks. The body is not meant nor designed to be used in that manner - it has no natural safeguards to protect or prevent the body from the potential consequences of the unnatural act, and the act itself is outside the natural sex act.

On Misanthropy (“over-population”)

Malthusianism has been a false mathematical-philosphical error for centuries, and in the referenced case actually came from a religious Christian (Malthus, an Anglican priest, if I recall), at the end of the 18th century. The simple error that mankind will grow exponentially and thus deplete its finite resources and sustenances was used to justify a form of population control over two hundred years ago, and also used to construct the dreaded and merciless workhouses of Brittain (famously bewailed by many great authors, but most popularly in Charles Dickens, “A Christmas Carol,” a.k.a, “Scrooge”). This error played no small part in helping to “justify” evil Brittish policies that displaced so many Irish peasants and caused widespread famine among them. This “fact (of over-population and resource depletion),” argued Malthus, caused economic deppressions and recessions, etc., even in his own day ; whereas, in truth, it was the result of bad - actually wicked - policies of government. Malthusianism has been discredited by even the academic community ; however, its basic logical errors are persistent and evolve, and are picked up from time to time by various other movements for justifying what is essentially a perverted view of humanity, which is best descriped as misanthropy - a kind of intellectual falacy and vice. Henry George, a little known but extraordinarily bright and gifted late 19th century political economist, who theories inspired the famous board game, Monopoly (as a condemnation of economical errors opposed to Hengry George’s theories). Henry wonderfully and masterfully condemns Malthusian errors as they relate to economics in the second part of his work, Progress and Poverty.
*To a factory worker, the obvious cause of low wages and lack of work appears to be too much competition. And in the squalid ghettos, what seems clearer than that there are too many people? We may also note that, in our present state of society, most workers appear to depend upon a separate class of capitalists for employment. **Under these conditions, we may pardon the masses – who rarely bother to separate the real from the apparent. ***
But the real reason for the triumph of [Malthus’] theory is that it does not threaten any vested right or antagonize any powerful interest. Malthus was eminently reassuring to the classes who wield the power of wealth and, thus, largely dominate thought. The French Revolution had aroused intense fear. At a time when old supports were falling away, his theory came to the rescue. It saved the special privileges by which only a few monopolize so much of this world.
This work of his, though not in my opinion perfect in all its conclusions (though demonstrably accurate in its analysis of economy), nonetheless does powerfully tempers the serious errors of modern neoliberal economists in a way the average man can readily argue and understand, much like Adam Smith made economics popular and understandable in his famous classic, the Wealth of Nations. If you’re wondering why you have never heard of Henry Geroge, this is exactly why.

The truth is that i) healthy population growth within ii) *a civilized *society is very good for the economy on one hand, and also self-sustaining for society in general on the other, and permits it the ability, opportunity and social order to effectively manage resources and development, without which society would be in peril regardless and independent of any other “economic” or “environmental” conditions/factors. Economy as we know it is a consequence, not a cause, of civilization, as the very term implies, it being of Greek origin a compound word meaning something like “House Rules,” or rather the Rules of the House. When we bewail or praise “the economy,” we are in fact either criticizing or praising our society’s organization, order, laws, leadership, management, etc. More and more today the serious error has spread that the economy is some almost deific or magical force that we react to or engage in. This is deeply falacious and such a view or treatment will produce serious errors and consequences, as everything contrary to Truth, natural and divine law is wont to do.
 
More from Henry George’s work, Progress and Poverty, in regards to the errors of (“over-”) population being - in and of itself - a risk to economic (or even environmental) conditions.
Thus, any reform that might interfere with the interests of any powerful class is discouraged as hopeless. Nothing can really be done, individually or socially, to reduce poverty. [Malthus’] theory, while exploiting the erroneous thoughts of the poor, justifies the greed of the rich and the selfishness of the powerful. Such a theory will spread quickly and strike deep roots. Recently, this theory has received new support from Darwin’s theory on the origin of species. Malthusian theory seems but the application to human society of “survival of the fittest.” Only “the struggle for existence,” cruel and remorseless, has differentiated humans from monkeys, and made our century succeed the stone age.
We see two hundred years ago a man breaking with the academic herd on one hand, and - what’s even more stunning - his accurate summation of the dangerous errors already being falsely or wrongly concluded from Darwin’s work, errors that - combined with Malthusian errors - would lead to and help justify the needless death and murder of countless millions of lives, even tens if not hundreds of millions. Again, if you wonder why you have never heard of this man, Henry George, it is exactly because his work seriously threatens a lot of erroneous but popular assumptions among academics and thinkers.
Thus seemingly proved, linked, and buttressed [by Darwin], Malthusian theory is now generally accepted as an unquestionable truth: Poverty is due to the pressure of population against subsistence. Or in its other form, the number of laborers will always increase until wages are reduced to the minimum of survival.
All social phenomena are now to be explained in this light – as for years the heavens were explained by supposing the earth was at the center of the universe. If authority were the only consideration, argument would be futile. This theory has received almost universal acceptance in the intellectual world, endorsed by economists and statesmen, historians and scientists, psychologists and clergy, conservatives and radicals. It is held, and habitually reasoned from, by many who have never even heard of Malthus, and haven’t the slightest idea what his theory is.
The last settence is now prophetic, as this thread has proven and modern “population control” and other agendas still prove.

Pax,
Tim
 
Before I start, I’d like to point out I do respect gay people as much as anyone else, but when it comes to trampling on childrens rights, so they can release their parental urges, that is unacceptable.

Des Morris wrote a book a few years back, called the human animal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Animal_%28TV_series%29

He said in it, that the reason why we are becoming more tolerable of gays today is because of the threat of over-populaton. It’s sort of a reaction to the crisis (if there really is one). To clarify, we are being extra nice to them, gving them all the things they want, so this would somehow slow population growth.

Would the whole womens priests campaign have anything to do with this, considering women didn’t seem to have a problem with not allowed ordaination through all those centuries either?, it’s only in modern times, like with the gay rights campaigns that it’s all of a sudden important…

What do you think, make any sense?
You have to remember how much things have changed in the last century.

How do we know what women were unhappy with?

The idea that women have opinions of their own worth listening to, and that the views of women need to be considered by those in power didn’t gain wide acceptance in the West until the 20th century.
 
I agree with Cable, even if all the worst fears about overpopulation are true, that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church has to accept the reality of it.

Denial is a very human failing.
 
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