Toll-House Doctrine?

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I would like to know what significant differences do exist then between the Catholic and Dositheos declarations on Original Sin. I have read EO Catechisms and works like Orthodox Dogmatic Theology (Fr Pomanzansky) which shy away, if not reject, the view Catholicism and Dositheos present.
As for Dositheos, it doesn’t delve into specifics, so the differences aren’t mentioned in its proclamation. It may be worth remembering that the purpose of that the decree on Original Sin was to reject Calvinism. Therefore, it was only expedient to mention those aspects of the Orthodox view that directly conflict with Calvinism’s assertion that fallen persons are completely deprived of the capability to do good.

(I forgot to put to write this in my reply two posts ago. My bad! 😛 Hopefully you’ll read this before you reply to that one. 😃 )
 
In my experience, the EO reject the same concept in roman terminology that is acceptable in EO terminology because the terminology used isn’t their own for most post-schism development.

But, by the same token, they also reject that anything needed dogmatic declaration since then, either.
 
In my experience, the EO reject the same concept in roman terminology that is acceptable in EO terminology because the terminology used isn’t their own for most post-schism development.

But, by the same token, they also reject that anything needed dogmatic declaration since then, either.
I’m not 100% sure what you mean. The last paragraph confused me. Do you mean that we object to concepts because of the use of Western terms and a perception that there has been no post-schism issue worthy of calling an Ecumenical Council to declare dogmata?
 
I’m not 100% sure what you mean. The last paragraph confused me. Do you mean that we object to concepts because of the use of Western terms and a perception that there has been no post-schism issue worthy of calling an Ecumenical Council to declare dogmata?
Pretty much.

The complaints of His Beatitude Alexi II of Moscow about “development of doctrine” by catholics amount to “There has been no need to make dogma since the last Ecumenical Council.”
(note for clarity: the above is an interpretation, not a direct quote.)
 
Pretty much.

The complaints of His Beatitude Alexi II of Moscow about “development of doctrine” by catholics amount to “There has been no need to make dogma since the last Ecumenical Council.”
(note for clarity: the above is an interpretation, not a direct quote.)
Thank you for the clarification! 👍

About the opposition based solely on the use of Western terms: some do this, some do not. I personally think the meaning is more important than the terminology. Of course,when different terms are employed, arguments about whether they mean the same thing always ensue. It’s been happening for two thousand years. It happened pre-schism, it’s happening now, and unfortunately, it’ll probably continue to happen, even if East and West finally reconcile. I don’t think it can be helped, especially when we have so many languages, each with a unique vocabulary that isn’t perfectly translatable. Unfortunate, but that’s life. 🤷
 
Thank you for the clarification! 👍

About the opposition based solely on the use of Western terms: some do this, some do not. I personally think the meaning is more important than the terminology. Of course,when different terms are employed, arguments about whether they mean the same thing always ensue. It’s been happening for two thousand years. It happened pre-schism, it’s happening now, and unfortunately, it’ll probably continue to happen, even if East and West finally reconcile. I don’t think it can be helped, especially when we have so many languages, each with a unique vocabulary that isn’t perfectly translatable. Unfortunate, but that’s life. 🤷
Locally, a great many OCA-RO laymen do reject the possibility that thy could be saying the same things, as the Catholic is translated to english from Latin, and the Orthodox from Russian Church Slavonic… and they translate very differently!

This is further exemplified by the recent Ruthenian revisions: moveing to a new translation from the Greek, rather than from the Old Church Slavonic… “May our Mouths be filled” instead of “May our lips be filled” kind of stuff.
 
The Confession of Dositheos quoted above says clearly that the souls go either to Heaven, Hell, or Hades. It indicates only some soul’s go to Hades (as well as the remedies for those souls).
The Confession of Dositheus:
We believe Holy Baptism, which was instituted by the Lord, and is conferred in the name of the Holy Trinity, to be of the highest necessity. For without it none is able to be saved, as the Lord saith, “Whosoever is not born of water and of the Spirit, shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens.” {John 3:5} And, therefore, it is necessary even for infants, since they also are subject to original sin, and without Baptism are not able to obtain its remission. Which the Lord shewed when he said, not of some only, but simply and absolutely, “Whosoever is not born [again],” which is the same as saying, “All that after the coming of Christ the Saviour would enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens must be <140> regenerated.”
Here, I’ll help you edit your statement:

“The Confession of Dositheos says clearly that souls only go to Heaven after the Second Coming. Also, the word Hell is never mentioned in the document. Hence, it in no way says that all souls go either to Heaven, Hell, or Hades immediately after death.”

You should have read it more closely.👍
 
As I understand, Catholics believe in Original Guilt and and believe held in some way culpable for the Fall.
This isn’t actually the Latin teaching. The problem comes from the fact that there is no direct English translation of the Latin term for “burden of a crime”, so it’s translated as the nearest equivalent which is guilt. The thing is, a burden of a crime does not imply being guilty of the crime, it just means that you carry the penalty of it (incidently, I wonder if this is why people are declared “not guilty” in court, as opposed to being declared innocent); this is why Latins often use the comparision of inheriting a dead parents debts upon their death, or a man losing his house due to poor investments and the children inheriting homelessness. In both cases the later individuals didn’t do anything to cause the deprivation, but they are definitely deprived nonetheless.

In the case of humanity, Adam withdrew from Divine Grace, which was his by design and was to be past on to his children, by sinning. He therefore lacked the Divine Grace to pass on to his children, and this deprivation causes all kinds of problems in our human nature, such as mortality due to the fact that we have mortal animal bodies that would be preserved by Grace, and bodily lusts which would be subjected to our wills by Grace.

Sin, in Latin, is not just a verb, but a noun describing a state of being without Grace, so the term “Original Sin” is properly translated contextually as the “lack of Grace from our origin”, not “the first sin we’re all guilty of”.

Peace and God bless!
 
Sin, in Latin, is not just a verb, but a noun describing a state of being without Grace, so the term “Original Sin” is properly translated contextually as the “lack of Grace from our origin”, not “the first sin we’re all guilty of”.
Brilliantly put!
 
This isn’t actually the Latin teaching. The problem comes from the fact that there is no direct English translation of the Latin term for “burden of a crime”, so it’s translated as the nearest equivalent which is guilt. The thing is, a burden of a crime does not imply being guilty of the crime, it just means that you carry the penalty of it (incidently, I wonder if this is why people are declared “not guilty” in court, as opposed to being declared innocent); this is why Latins often use the comparision of inheriting a dead parents debts upon their death, or a man losing his house due to poor investments and the children inheriting homelessness. In both cases the later individuals didn’t do anything to cause the deprivation, but they are definitely deprived nonetheless.
Thank you the clarification! If that’s what Latins mean, then “guilt” is very misleading. Would you happen to know the exact Latin term translated as “guilt” in English?
In the case of humanity, Adam withdrew from Divine Grace, which was his by design and was to be past on to his children, by sinning. He therefore lacked the Divine Grace to pass on to his children, and this deprivation causes all kinds of problems in our human nature, such as mortality due to the fact that we have mortal animal bodies that would be preserved by Grace, and bodily lusts which would be subjected to our wills by Grace.
Not exactly identical to (how I understand) the Orthodox view, but certainly a lot closer. 🙂
Sin, in Latin, is not just a verb, but a noun describing a state of being without Grace, so the term “Original Sin” is properly translated contextually as the “lack of Grace from our origin”, not “the first sin we’re all guilty of”.
Yes, I was aware that it can be used to refer to a state in Latin, as well as in English. That’s just a matter of a language’s rules. It would be perfectly Orthodox to say that all people are born in sin. I won’t argue with you there. 👍
 
Thank you the clarification! If that’s what Latins mean, then “guilt” is very misleading. Would you happen to know the exact Latin term translated as “guilt” in English?
I’ll see if I can find it again. I read it in a Latin version of the Council of Trent, and it was discussed by the Dominicans I studied with.
Not exactly identical to (how I understand) the Orthodox view, but certainly a lot closer. 🙂
Yes, it’s a different tradition for sure, but it’s not contradictory. Interestingly, the Latin approach is what St. Athanasius taught. From “On the Incarnation” (English translation):
Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption. This is what Holy Scripture tells us, proclaiming the command of God, “Of every tree that is in the garden thou shalt surely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye shall not eat, but in the day that ye do eat, ye shall surely die.” “Ye shall surely die”—not just die only, but remain in the state of death and of corruption.
So the Latin tradition is in accord with the North African tradition from the time of St. Athanasius. It’s a very ancient understanding, and one worthy of respect as an Apostolic tradition. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
I’ll see if I can find it again. I read it in a Latin version of the Council of Trent, and it was discussed by the Dominicans I studied with.
Thank you! 👍
So the Latin tradition is in accord with the North African tradition from the time of St. Athanasius. It’s a very ancient understanding, and one worthy of respect as an Apostolic tradition. 🙂
Hmmm…To be honest, I don’t see how the particular quote you gave is anymore like the Latin tradition than the Orthodox tradition. It seems pretty neutral to me, but I could be overlooking something. 🤷
 
Hmmm…To be honest, I don’t see how the particular quote you gave is anymore like the Latin tradition than the Orthodox tradition. It seems pretty neutral to me, but I could be overlooking something. 🤷
It’s the fact that it is the lack of Grace that is passed on to the children as a birthright, and that the human race was removed from this “beauty” which was not natural to us even though it was our birthright, and fell to our base nature.

It’s as if a child has a trust fund of billions of dollars; this trust is not natural to them, but it is a definite birthright that elevates them above the needs of basic nature (making your way through life with money to buy whatever you need, versus scrounging along with only the natural tools God gave you from the womb). If that trust fund is somehow lost, the child loses all of that additional power and ability that the money gave him, but his root nature remains the same. He may become corrupted, stealing to survive, living in filth, or just having to work cashier at McDonald’s, but what has fundamentally happened is that he lost the “bonus” of the trust fund, and he’s moved along with his “naked as the day I was born” human nature. The fact that this “naked” human nature is not always pretty when missing the comforts he could had is just a natural part of life, even though it’s not the intended design of his life.

So basically the Latin tradition is that “Original Sin” represents the absence of Grace, the missing trust fund, and the difficulties that result from it, similar to how St. Athanasius describes Grace being removed from man, and man falling to his basic nature and thus falling far from his design; man was made to share in the supernatural Divine Nature, and can only operate properly when we do, and our natural state is not sufficient for us to function as we are designed to.

I liken this to a car lacking oil in the engine; it runs for a bit, and it’s still a car, but it’s going to break down and fall apart very fast; Grace is the oil in the engine of human nature, the supernatural element that allows our nature to work as intended.

This may not be much different from what you’ve been learning in becoming Eastern Orthodox, I just know that some Eastern Orthodox have been taught differently, and I know that in my own Church and tradition it is not usually portrayed this way.

Peace and God bless!
 
It’s the fact that it is the lack of Grace that is passed on to the children as a birthright, and that the human race was removed from this “beauty” which was not natural to us even though it was our birthright, and fell to our base nature.

It’s as if a child has a trust fund of billions of dollars; this trust is not natural to them, but it is a definite birthright that elevates them above the needs of basic nature (making your way through life with money to buy whatever you need, versus scrounging along with only the natural tools God gave you from the womb). If that trust fund is somehow lost, the child loses all of that additional power and ability that the money gave him, but his root nature remains the same. He may become corrupted, stealing to survive, living in filth, or just having to work cashier at McDonald’s, but what has fundamentally happened is that he lost the “bonus” of the trust fund, and he’s moved along with his “naked as the day I was born” human nature. The fact that this “naked” human nature is not always pretty when missing the comforts he could had is just a natural part of life, even though it’s not the intended design of his life.

So basically the Latin tradition is that “Original Sin” represents the absence of Grace, the missing trust fund, and the difficulties that result from it, similar to how St. Athanasius describes Grace being removed from man, and man falling to his basic nature and thus falling far from his design; man was made to share in the supernatural Divine Nature, and can only operate properly when we do, and our natural state is not sufficient for us to function as we are designed to.

I liken this to a car lacking oil in the engine; it runs for a bit, and it’s still a car, but it’s going to break down and fall apart very fast; Grace is the oil in the engine of human nature, the supernatural element that allows our nature to work as intended.

This may not be much different from what you’ve been learning in becoming Eastern Orthodox, I just know that some Eastern Orthodox have been taught differently, and I know that in my own Church and tradition it is not usually portrayed this way.

Peace and God bless!
So, would I be portraying the Latin view correctly if I say that they consider Original Sin to be a lack of rights? That is, when Adam sinned, he rejected the treasures of Grace, and therefore forfeited the rights of his offspring ***to ******claim ***that treasure?

I have not been formally taught about Original Sin by my priest yet, so I only know what I’ve read and reasoned out in my head. As I see it, Orthodox tend to view sin as a hereditary disease that, after being introduced by Adam, passed to, and infected, all his offspring. Thus, Original Sin is seen as an illness that cripples our ability to accept Grace. At least that’s what the Orthodox teaching looks like to me. I could very well be wrong. 🤷
 
So, would I be portraying the Latin view correctly if I say that they consider Original Sin to be a lack of rights? That is, when Adam sinned, he rejected the treasures of Grace, and therefore forfeited the rights of his offspring ***to ******claim ***that treasure?
I think that might be reading too much into my analogy. 🙂

It’s not so much that Adam had rights to anything per se, but rather that he had something, Divine Grace, that he lost and therefore couldn’t pass on to his kids. Since this Grace balances human nature and allows it to function (this, incidently, is the root of the notion of Original Justice, which is also spoken of in the Latin tradition, since justice means a balancing, hence the common depiction of scales representing justice), losing it really threw us off. The balance was broken, and we needed to be “justified” again, or brought into balance.

In my experience, the Byzantine tradition focuses more on the notion of Adam’s “sickness” being passed down to us, as opposed to dealing specifically with the question of lost Divine Grace. There are other approaches in the Byzantine tradition as well, however, such as death being the primary inherited condition, and our sinful choices coming from our innate understanding that were dying and that we must seek enjoyment and such immediately. I don’t buy this latter approach, but I’ve heard it a number of times.

Peace and God bless!
 
To understand the Orthodox teaching of Original Sin, you first must understand the distinction between Human Nature and Hypostasis (i.e. the unique expression of that nature in personhood). The Fall wounded ‘Human Nature’ and thus effects ‘all’ mankind just as the Resurrection effects ‘all’ mankind at the level of of our Nature (i.e. think human capacity). This is why the East reject the Western notice that man inherits Adam’s Guilt. Guilt is attached to a person, for a personal offense, it is not something that can be associated with our Nature.

St. Athanasius touches on this in On The Incarnation and everyone would do well to read it to understand the patristic views of the Fall and the Incarnation. The West has replaced much of this view of the Fall and Incarnation with a completely juridical understanding.
 
I think that might be reading too much into my analogy. 🙂

It’s not so much that Adam had rights to anything per se, but rather that he had something, Divine Grace, that he lost and therefore couldn’t pass on to his kids. Since this Grace balances human nature and allows it to function (this, incidently, is the root of the notion of Original Justice, which is also spoken of in the Latin tradition, since justice means a balancing, hence the common depiction of scales representing justice), losing it really threw us off. The balance was broken, and we needed to be “justified” again, or brought into balance.

In my experience, the Byzantine tradition focuses more on the notion of Adam’s “sickness” being passed down to us, as opposed to dealing specifically with the question of lost Divine Grace. There are other approaches in the Byzantine tradition as well, however, such as death being the primary inherited condition, and our sinful choices coming from our innate understanding that were dying and that we must seek enjoyment and such immediately. I don’t buy this latter approach, but I’ve heard it a number of times.

Peace and God bless!
Okay. I think I got it! 👍

Interesting how the Latin tradition focuses on *losing *something positve to pass on, while the Byzantine focuses on *gaining *something negative to pass on.

That last approach sounds like something that’d be taught by someone who claims to deny Original Sin. :confused:
 
To understand the Orthodox teaching of Original Sin, you first must understand the distinction between Human Nature and Hypostasis (i.e. the unique expression of that nature in personhood). The Fall wounded ‘Human Nature’ and thus effects ‘all’ mankind just as the Resurrection effects ‘all’ mankind at the level of of our Nature (i.e. think human capacity). This is why the East reject the Western notice that man inherits Adam’s Guilt. Guilt is attached to a person, for a personal offense, it is not something that can be associated with our Nature.

St. Athanasius touches on this in On The Incarnation and everyone would do well to read it to understand the patristic views of the Fall and the Incarnation. The West has replaced much of this view of the Fall and Incarnation with a completely juridical understanding.
How far was my view of Original Sin from how you understand the Orthodox position?
As I understand, the Orthodox view is that when Adam sinned, the distrust of God that was introduced into Man’s character created a gulf in the relationship with God. Also, this distrust naturally produces lust and pride, which in turn generates further acts of sin. Thus, it is as if this this distrust were a contagion which naturally spreads and infects us with sin. Even if we choose to try to do good and restore our relationship with God, the mere fact that the distrust existed in the first place bars us from achieving the closeness which was possible before the distrust was introduced. (This is also true of, and easily seen in, relationships between individuals.) The deprivation of Grace then is a result of this contagion and not God. God never ceased to offer us Grace, and indeed never would, being All-Loving and Ever-Benevolent.
Could you say it was an element of distrust that was introduced into Man’s nature?

[Since distrust naturally produces lust and pride, which the Bible describes as the cause of sin. If you a skeptical of God’s intentions, you naturally start considering how to safeguard yourself. Hence, you become driven by self-preservation/self-love, which is essentially lust. Also, if you doubt the knowledge imparted by God, you naturally start depending on personal reason, which leads one to consider one’s logic as more reliable and trustworthy than God’s. Hence, you become proud.]
 
ChrisB:
To understand the Orthodox teaching of Original Sin, you first must understand the distinction between Human Nature and Hypostasis (i.e. the unique expression of that nature in personhood). The Fall wounded ‘Human Nature’ and thus effects ‘all’ mankind just as the Resurrection effects ‘all’ mankind at the level of of our Nature (i.e. think human capacity).
There is no expression of human nature aside from the personal, or hypostatic. There is no “human nature” that exists apart from from the individual instances of it we call persons. What you’re describing is Platonism (the seperate existence of “ideals” or natures), not Christian doctrine.
Guilt is attached to a person, for a personal offense, it is not something that can be associated with our Nature.
You’re working with a totally different meaning of guilt, I’m afraid. The Latin tradition has consistantly said that the guilt of Original Sin doesn’t have the character of personal fault. You’re relying on Reformation theology and your understanding of the English translations, not the actual words used.

Just to prove that this isn’t some post-Vatican II teaching, here’s an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1911:
“Your dogma makes us strictly responsible for the fault of Adam.” That is a misconception of our doctrine. Our dogma does not attribute to the children of Adam any properly so-called responsibility for the act of their father, nor do we say that original sin is voluntary in the strict sense of the word. It is true that, considered as “a moral deformity”, “a separation from God”, as “the death of the soul”, original sin is a real sin which deprives the soul of sanctifying grace. It has the same claim to be a sin as has habitual sin, which is the state in which an adult is placed by a grave and personal fault, the “stain” which St. Thomas defines as "the privation of grace" (I-II:109:7; III:87:2, ad 3), and it is from this point of view that baptism, putting an end to the privation of grace, “takes away all that is really and properly sin”, for concupiscence which remains “is not really and properly sin”, although its transmission was equally voluntary (Council of Trent, Sess. V, can. v.). Considered precisely as voluntary, original sin is only the shadow of sin properly so-called. According to St. Thomas (In II Sent., dist. xxv, Q. i, a. 2, ad 2um), it is not called sin in the same sense, but only in an analogous sense.
Several theologians of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, neglecting the importance of the privation of grace in the explanation of original sin, and explaining it only by the participation we are supposed to have in the act of Adam, exaggerate this participation. They exaggerate the idea of voluntary in original sin, thinking that it is the only way to explain how it is a sin properly so-called. Their opinion, differing from that of St. Thomas, gave rise to uncalled-for and insoluble difficulties. At present it is altogether abandoned.
So you can continue on about this mistaken view of the Latin teaching on Original Sin, but it stands as utterly refuted a century ago, and has no basis in reality, making for a very poor polemic against the Latin traditon. 😛

Peace and God bless!
 
:confused: Sometimes I wish one of the Apostles would just randomly come back from the dead so I can ask him what the real Apostolic Tradition is…
There is no expression of human nature aside from the personal, or hypostatic. There is no “human nature” that exists apart from from the individual instances of it we call persons. What you’re describing is Platonism (the seperate existence of “ideals” or natures), not Christian doctrine.
lol. Theory of Forms, right? I knew what he said sounded familiar! And here I was thinking he knew something I was missing…😊

Would that really be true Platonism, though? I read about it a long time ago, but, as I remember it, his Ideals were perfect, while the actuals material manifestation of the forms was imperfect. Wouldn’t ChrisB’s assertion that the form was made imperfect violate Plato’s system?

(I need to stop reading random things, I know tidbits of a lot of stuff, but fully understand little. Too…Much…Knowledge… Must…Have…Knowledge… :hypno:)

(I just noticed that there are Irish emoticons. I demand Indian ones!)

(I get so random at four in the morning. 😃 Well, off to bed…Must be rested for church and like 300-pages worth of studying for Monday. :()
 
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