Tongue/Hand/Precious Blood

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Mysty101:
from the GIRM which IS the law for the Mass.
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Nothing here you use from GIRM contradict the fact that it is still optional, and nowhere in GIRM does it say the sign of “peace” MUST be given. I personally know priests who in knowing this, omit the sign of peace and go directly into the Agnus Dei. Well done fathers.
 
I call you Misery because you leave a trail of Misery behind you. You attacked me because I said I prefer to distribute Communion in the hand.

(Go back and read the posts in the other thread—someone came to my defense, not yours)

I will be glad to have a civil discussion, but you must stick to tthe facts, and not misquote, twist or accuse.
  1. The Rite of Peace follows, by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, **and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.
    **
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How do you read this as optional?
 
PS I’d better add the rest of paragraph 82
As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples.
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It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner.
 
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Mysty101:
I call you Misery because you leave a trail of Misery behind you. You attacked me because I said I prefer to distribute Communion in the hand.

(Go back and read the posts in the other thread—someone came to my defense, not yours)

I will be glad to have a civil discussion, but you must stick to tthe facts, and not misquote, twist or accuse.

How do you read this as optional?
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I continue to see your very immature and subjective OPINIONS, at the same time you continue to blow your steam. I take it you have never taken logic of argumentation or ecclesiology 101?
Well, I continue to point out to you that the sign of peace is purely optional, but in your eisegesis in viewing GIRM, somehow you read into it that it says this pentecostal practice is a MUST do or else. NOT. Again, if GIRM does NOT specifically state nothing on optional, then point to me where it states it MUST!!! Be done? Many pastors (I will repeat) in knowing this, skip that part where in the RUBRICS in small red fine printing it says: sign of peace, “optional” then proceed to the important part of the Mass and it’s Canon, specifically the NON optional Agnus Dei.
“Civil discussions” are based in Argumentative logic, where you back up your thesis(argument) in favor of your main argument, something you have yet to do. Even the famouse Scholastics in the european Universities knew this, and did that in their famous “disputatios.” Your points here remind me of a lecture I once saw the great father George Rutler(doctor of sacred Theology) mention (a point HE made) when he said in his great wisdom, intelligence and scholarship: “Many in the Church today no longer say I think so and so, but rather, I FEEL so and SO.” A thesis is not based on FEELINGS but on philosophical logic and backing up one’s statements.👍
 
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Hischild246:
I carry a small bottle of antiseptic gel and clean my hands after the sign of peace before I go to get the host in my hand.
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I NOW kneel and close my eyes at the part of the “sign of peace.” Of course this is on those rare times when I do attend the Novus Ordo, after all the Pope gave us the right to attend if we so choose, the Tridentine Latin Mass(see: Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Document 1988).
 
Well, I continue to point out to you that the sign of peace is purely optional, but in your eisegesis in viewing GIRM, somehow you read into it that it says this pentecostal practice is a MUST do or else. NOT. Again, if GIRM does NOT specifically state nothing on optional, then point to me where it states it MUST!!! Be done?
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An instruction is that—an instruction. Where does it the GIRM say anything must be done? If there is an option, that is stated, otherwise any instruction is to be followed.

You don’t even acknowledge your community at the sign of peace? How sad.

Please do not turn this into another fiasco.
 
The church teaches that we receive the full Christ when we receive the Consecrated Host alone. However, the Church, (General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 240) also says:

*The sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly. The intention of Christ that the new and eternal covenant be ratified in his blood is better expressed, as is the relation of the Eucharistic banquet to the heavenly banquet.

*So that this “fuller light” may fall upon the import of Christ’s words at the Last Supper and in the Eucharistic prayer, and for the sake of the faithful’s greater participation in the mystery, communion under both kinds is to be desired in all celebrations of the Mass, although this is not possible in all cases. For this sacred rite: the sign of the Eucharistic meal stands out more explicitly," and the act of drinking the consecrated wine, the blood of Christ, strengthens the faith of the communicants in the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Communion under both kinds can therefore manifest more fully the nature of the Mass both as a sacrifice and as a sacred Meal belonging to the same mystery, to such an extent that they are linked to one another by a very close theological and sacramental bond

​
 
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misericordie:
I NOW kneel and close my eyes at the part of the “sign of peace.” Of course this is on those rare times when I do attend the Novus Ordo, after all the Pope gave us the right to attend if we so choose, the Tridentine Latin Mass(see: Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Document 1988).
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Oh yes, I will continue to do this.👍 :clapping:
All want to laugh? I know of a local parish here in Manhhattan, New York City run by a certain redeeming religious congregation where the priests run around after communion to ask "who’s birthday is it’? So he can literally RUN! With the microphone to the person who is to stand up, then “happy birthday” is sung by the who faithful at the church. The pastor’s novelty in this also extends itself to the anniversaries, etc, he reminds me of Ed Sullivan.:dancing: :crying: Anyone else have similar experiences in thier “catholic” masses like this?
 
AS an EMHC I receive on the tongue at every occassion and receive the Precious Blood at those extraordinary moments when I am required to assist distribution of Holy Communion.

I have to admit though I am a re-convert. I used to receive in the hand for most of my youth and now having read many of the Church documents, I relaise that it is the preferred way and that is enough for me. I have not received in the hand for a long time.

I have no problem distributing in the hand. The majority of our Parish receive on the tongue. Only recently, I saw the Holy Father give communion in the hand and the beautiful way he placed it there with great care. It is a special hand action that I have adapted and it gets across the fact that something very importnat is being placed there. I cannot describe it in words but I am sure most of you saw it when the Holy Father was in Lourdes.

What gets me are the folks who receive in the hand and then spend the next 5 mins licking and fingering their hands for fear a fragment remains. Only short of getting out the magnifying glass.

Worse still of course is the dust off action I have seen all too often. Hurts me to the quick. I have to be honest. Really hurts.

Wouldn’t it be much better to receive on the tongue and not have to worry about what is or is not on our hands??? At least EMHC’s can wash their fingers after distribution.

What are the worries of those who do not receive on the tongue??? I would love to know.
 
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misericordie:
I NOW kneel and close my eyes at the part of the “sign of peace.” Of course this is on those rare times when I do attend the Novus Ordo, after all the Pope gave us the right to attend if we so choose, the Tridentine Latin Mass(see: Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Document 1988).
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Misericordie! I have to take issue with you on this one. Only one of our parishoners does exactly what you do at the NO Mass (as you call it) It is such a sign of disunity especially when we have been been called on to offer one another the sign of Peace. The sign of Peace when included is a sign to one another that expresses peace, communion and charity. I would say it is a serious issue to omit it.

To shut ones eyes and stay kneeling at this point is not only disrespectful for the unity it symbolises it is telling Christ that you do not wish to make use of the great gift of Peace he left us.
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Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.
All: Amen.
Priest: The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
All: And also with you.

Deacon or Priest: Let us offer each other a sign of peace.
Misericordie. What was the first thing the Risen Christ said to those gathered in His name when He appeared to them??? What is it He continues to say to each and every heart that receives Him in the state of Grace??? PEACE BE WITH YOU.

What did he say to Thomas on their first meeting after the resurrection? "Put your fingers here into the holes and your hand into the wound in my side. Did Thomas say "Oh no Lord, I have just washed me hands and really …well … I’d prefer to …ya know…keep them clean…is that ok??
Nothing more than refusal. Do you not recognise Him in those around you?? Are you like those two disciples on the road to Emmaus who fail to recognise Him even though your heart is burning within you??

Would you shake hands with Christ himself?? I bet you would be at the top of the line dressed in your finest and smiling from ear to ear!!! Well then why not with those who are His brothers and sisters???

Misericordie, do you handle money? Do you use public phones? Do you use door handles in public buildings? If so then fear not you are at a far greater risk of getting contaminated through these than through shaking hands.

I cannot agree with you on this one and would even go so far as to say you need to seriously contemplate the seriousness of your omission.
 
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Fergal:
Misericordie! I have to take issue with you on this one. Only one of our parishoners does exactly what you do at the NO Mass (as you call it) It is such a sign of disunity especially when we have been been called on to offer one another the sign of Peace. The sign of Peace when included is a sign to one another that expresses peace, communion and charity. I would say it is a serious issue to omit it.

To shut ones eyes and stay kneeling at this point is not only disrespectful for the unity it symbolises it is telling Christ that you do not wish to make use of the great gift of Peace he left us.
______________________________________________________
Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.
All: Amen.
Priest: The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
All: And also with you.

Deacon or Priest: Let us offer each other a sign of peace.
Misericordie. What was the first thing the Risen Christ said to those gathered in His name when He appeared to them??? What is it He continues to say to each and every heart that receives Him in the state of Grace??? PEACE BE WITH YOU.

What did he say to Thomas on their first meeting after the resurrection? "Put your fingers here into the holes and your hand into the wound in my side. Did Thomas say "Oh no Lord, I have just washed me hands and really …well … I’d prefer to …ya know…keep them clean…is that ok??
Nothing more than refusal. Do you not recognise Him in those around you?? Are you like those two disciples on the road to Emmaus who fail to recognise Him even though your heart is burning within you??

Would you shake hands with Christ himself?? I bet you would be at the top of the line dressed in your finest and smiling from ear to ear!!! Well then why not with those who are His brothers and sisters???

Misericordie, do you handle money? Do you use public phones? Do you use door handles in public buildings? If so then fear not you are at a far greater risk of getting contaminated through these than through shaking hands.

I cannot agree with you on this one and would even go so far as to say you need to seriously contemplate the seriousness of your omission.
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Maybe you forgot one point: The sign of peace at NO mass is optional according to the rubrics themselves. Furthermore you seem to compare Our Lord Jesus Christ with anyone, using an example from the NT which you here take out of its content. Thirdly, the "sign of peace is a fairly new practice which came to the no about 1977, or near the death of Pope Paul VI. Hence, if your arguments were true, then you mean to say that there was no unity or PEACE in the Church BEFORE Vatican II?
In the meantime, I will continue by prayer to God, not to the person next to me, and this is just ONE minor reason why I began THIS WEEK to atytend the Latin Tridentine Mass ONLY and exclusively!! (I have the “right” according to the Holy Father’s Mtu Propio Ecclesia Dei).
However all being said here, thank you though because contrary to other certain posters here, you are very respectful(i mean this) and mature in your arguments, I am sure you mean well and have the right intentions here. Many blessings friend.
 
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Fergal:
AS an EMHC I receive on the tongue at every occassion and receive the Precious Blood at those extraordinary moments when I am required to assist distribution of Holy Communion.

I have to admit though I am a re-convert. I used to receive in the hand for most of my youth and now having read many of the Church documents, I relaise that it is the preferred way and that is enough for me. I have not received in the hand for a long time.

I have no problem distributing in the hand. The majority of our Parish receive on the tongue. Only recently, I saw the Holy Father give communion in the hand and the beautiful way he placed it there with great care. It is a special hand action that I have adapted and it gets across the fact that something very importnat is being placed there. I cannot describe it in words but I am sure most of you saw it when the Holy Father was in Lourdes.

What gets me are the folks who receive in the hand and then spend the next 5 mins licking and fingering their hands for fear a fragment remains. Only short of getting out the magnifying glass.

Worse still of course is the dust off action I have seen all too often. Hurts me to the quick. I have to be honest. Really hurts.

Wouldn’t it be much better to receive on the tongue and not have to worry about what is or is not on our hands??? At least EMHC’s can wash their fingers after distribution.

What are the worries of those who do not receive on the tongue??? I would love to know.
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I would too, great point here! I agree with you.
 
Hi Misericordie,

Well I don’t believe in being confrontational. I just like to tease out my thoughts with those who are willing to listen and seriously consider my points. Of course I welcome the rebuttal which is always very necessary for the growth of both sides.

Now for my last few thoughts of this day!!! I will take your quotes in bold:

***Maybe you forgot one point: The sign of peace at NO mass is optional according to the rubrics themselves. ***

Of course I know this if you see my post I did say "the sign of Peace when included" Our weekday Masses in my old Parish never included it in weekday Masses but always put it into the Sunday Mass. So when it is included and we are offered the opportunity to offer the great gift of Peace to one another, why do we shut our eyes and say “No”??
***Furthermore you seem to compare Our Lord Jesus Christ with anyone, using an example from the NT which you here take out of its content. ***
No what I am trying to portray is the idea that the offering of Peace, even from Christ Almighty, was a physical gesture also. The giving of Peace to the prostitute, to Zaccheus, to the bleeding woman to the blind man etc. Jesus reached out to touch in order to give Peace. he has given us that Peace so that we now with his example reach out and offer Peace. The Apostoles and disciples when they met after the Ascension regularly embraced and offered each other Peace. And it was part of the Mass in the very early Church as I have pointed out below.
Thirdly, the "sign of peace is a fairly new practice which came to the no about 1977, or near the death of Pope Paul VI. Hence, if your arguments were true, then you mean to say that there was no unity or PEACE in the Church BEFORE Vatican II?
See that argument fails immediately especially for the lovers of the TLM. “Gregorian Chant” is traditionally named after Pope Gregory I (reigned 590-604). He has been credited with the development and codification of the Roman Catholic plainsong. Now before Gregorian Chant and the use of incense etc did our prayers not rise to God as well as they did in the TLM. Before these beautiful riches were introduced did God Almighty accept it to a lesser degree? Before these things were introduced did our Sanctuaries and our Churches not have the ambience of Heaven? Was our Holy Mass any less sacred? No.
What I mean to say is that until 1977 it was not an option for the people at Mass. At the Tridentine Solemn Mass, the Celebrant gave the kiss of peace to the Deacon, who gave it to the Subdeacon who gives it to the clergy present. Now it is an option for the Priest to invite the people to offer the sign of Peace. When he does exercise that option and include it, I don’t think we then have the option to opt out!

I am sure you know there has been talk that we should go back to the ‘kiss’ of peace in the new GIRM. Just imagine no shaking hands. I just hope they all remember to wash their teeth!!! :o

Lets take a look further back to the early Church. My post is continued…
 
There is no better way to describe the custom of exchanging the greeting of peace at Mass than the words of St. Augustine in the 4th century: “After the Lord’s Prayer, say ‘Peace be with you.’ Christians then embrace one another with a holy kiss. This is the sign of peace.”

In the primitive church at Rome and in the Eastern Church, the kiss of peace was offered after the first part of the Mass and before the Eucharistic Prayer. Early baptismal documents also indicate that the exchange of peace was reserved only for the ‘faithful,’ and so catechumens were dismissed before the Prayer of the Faithful, which was followed by the Kiss of Peace.

In the Western Church the sign of peace was moved quite early to where it is as Augustine described it and where it is today. The Western Church saw a close link between peace and communion–peace with one another before receiving the Prince of Peace.

In the Middle Ages the laity were excluded from the sign of peace and it was then dropped altogether from the Mass; the only remnant of the rite was the action of the priest kissing the altar.** Vatican II restored the ancient rite of peace to all who participate at mass. **

Custom dictates how the kiss of peace is exchanged in each country: a handshake, an embrace, words of peace, or other actions. In Japan, for example, the celebrant bows deeply to the congregation who in turn bow towards him and then bow respectfully to one another. It is a sign that works well in their culture. How the sign of peace is given will vary, but its meaning remains the same.

God Bless You!! A pleasure to have this discourse with you.
 
PS Perhaps you won’t go to the other thread (in Liturgy) is because you have been proven wrong there.
 
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Mysty101:
PS Perhaps you won’t go to the other thread (in Liturgy) is because you have been proven wrong there.
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More likely he just wants to force everyone to read his posts whether they are off-topic or not. I tried to get him to open a new thread to continue a debate we were having which was off-topic but he wouldn’t. I’d gladly join in to point out that I had already addressed what he wanted me to but he wouldn’t start the thread -just kept posting to the old one. Of course he missed a lot of what I had written so maybe he missed your invitation too! 😉
 
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