Tongues: church's stand

[Joysong]

If both Church teachings and Scriptures, the Holy Bible, the Word of God, cannot help you learn, not even listen, if you can publicly ignore Church’s teaching and ignore the Bible, then there is no need for anyone to say anything to you any more. period.

Thanks, InLight.

In this thread alone, there were presented sufficient papal documents indicating approval, and in fact there is an office for the ICCRS in the Vatican after Pope Paul VI approved the movement, giving it official recognition and status. Our two successor popes have also approved not only the movement, but also the charisms, giving a strong voice not to hinder them.

ICCRS consists of an international Council which shares and establishes the central goals, objectives and projects, having an office located in Vatican City, responsible for carrying out the decisions of the Council.
In pursuing its goals and objectives ICCRS seeks to offer helpful service to the CCR. It seeks also to gather wisdom, insight and experience, and to make it available world-wide.
iccrs.org/about_iccrs/recognition/statutes.htm

I have learned that obstinate people who come to the forum only to argue against Church teaching are best ignored, and the thread usually dies when nobody else responds to them. Maybe we should all do the same here. I follow your lead.

 

[saylo]

Saylo, I was showing you what the Scripture says, didn’t you read it?

If both Church teachings and Scriptures, the Holy Bible, the Word of God, cannot help you learn, not even listen, if you can publicly ignore Church’s teaching and ignore the Bible, then there is no need for anyone to say anything to you any more. period.

This reading was for a time 2,000 years ago BEFORE the Church has been established. St. Paul is NOT speaking in a prophetic sense that the Church is going to be primarily of tongues.

Were that so we would have a
“St. Name Here of Tongues”
We might also have parishes names “St. Paul of Tongues” That is never gpoing to happen in the Church that Jesus, the Son of God fouded with the Holy Spirit leading it to the end days.

 

[saylo]

Thanks, InLight.

In this thread alone, there were presented sufficient papal documents indicating approval, and in fact there is an office for the ICCRS in the Vatican after Pope Paul VI approved the movement, giving it official recognition and status. Our two successor popes have also approved not only the movement, but also the charisms, giving a strong voice not to hinder them.

I have learned that obstinate people who come to the forum only to argue against Church teaching are best ignored, and the thread usually dies when nobody else responds to them. Maybe we should all do the same here. I follow your lead.

Is this comment one that was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Just asking.

 

[Church_Militant]

One thing that seems to be getting somewhat shoved to the side is that the church and the scriptures both express both approval and caution with regard to this issue.

Just where do you think that the church will draw it’s guidance from as to the CCR? From non-Catholic theology? No…it will, just as we have done here in this thread, look to the scriptures for guidance and discipline. As well it should…

All the approval has done is allow and encourage the spiritual practice and devotion within the context of the orthodoxy of the Catholic faith. To go beyond that in either pro or con directions is unwise at best.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[littleone]

Joysong Joysong is offline
Senior Member

Default Re: tongues: church’s stand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick9
we are encouraged in our parish to speak in tongues and I have tried, but I feel like a fool and just seem to be speaking nonsense. It does seem to be badge of honor and creates a bit of a ‘them and us’ situation.

Then don’t do it, and don’t let them intimidate you. There are many gifts of the Spirit, and He breathes where He wills. Your gift may be the more practical one of teaching or administering - but just because these practical gifts are not ‘showy’ don’t be concerned that you are missing something, because tongues is the very least of the gifts.

---

For some these gifts mean nothing or near to nothing, to others they mean almost everything.
I didn’t want the gift of tongs when I joined the charis-renewal. I fond that too often some people would say “you know they are christian by speaking in tongs”???
Well I will never believe that however i was pushed into speaking in tongs when in a log loader some two stories high in a paper stack there was a book on speaking in tongs and I knew that our Lord was telling me that for me there was reason why He wanted me to speak in tongs ( this may not be so for others).

The church relates that tongs are the least and that we should always try to attain the gift of “love”’ but that all gifts come from God and all gifts have their place also that none should be deleted, they all have their place.

Godbless

 

[saylo]

Joysong Joysong is offline
Senior Member

Default Re: tongues: church’s stand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick9
we are encouraged in our parish to speak in tongues and I have tried, but I feel like a fool and just seem to be speaking nonsense. It does seem to be badge of honor and creates a bit of a ‘them and us’ situation.

Then don’t do it, and don’t let them intimidate you. There are many gifts of the Spirit, and He breathes where He wills. Your gift may be the more practical one of teaching or administering - but just because these practical gifts are not ‘showy’ don’t be concerned that you are missing something, because tongues is the very least of the gifts.

Conversely, the Holy Spirit is guiding us to take no part in these exhibitions. So, it looks like we have TWO Holy Spirits…yours and ours.

---

For some these gifts mean nothing or near to nothing, to others they mean almost everything.

Give us one example of “almost everything” means.

I didn’t want the gift of tongs when I joined the charis-renewal. I fond that too often some people would say “you know they are christian by speaking in tongs”???
Well I will never believe that however i was pushed into speaking in tongs when in a log loader some two stories high in a paper stack there was a book on speaking in tongs and I knew that our Lord was telling me that for me there was reason why He wanted me to speak in tongs ( this may not be so for others).

The church relates that tongs are the least and that we should always try to attain the gift of “love”’ but that all gifts come from God and all gifts have their place also that none should be deleted, they all have their place.

The “gift of love” is attained at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Eucharist.

In the Eucharist we have Jesus abiding within us and the Father and Holy Spirit as well…the Eucharist is so profound.

Where one of the Trinity is the other two are present as well…they are indivisible. Jesus never commanded to have “speaking in tongues” as form to follow…He commanded to have the Mass as our pathway to Heaven.

Speaking in tongues was meant to aid in the missionary ventures of the Early Church (ROSETTA STONE WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THAT TIME). It was meant to spread the Word in places that were virtually unknown and isolated. That was 2,000 years ago and the world has gotten much smaller and more intimate for good and for evil.

To speak in tongues at these gatherings while it is unknown what is being spoken is gibberish it has NO meaning since it is NOTunderstood. Besides, what are some of the “languages” being spouted?

No pope has officiated in any of these gatherings…that has to have some meaning…

 

[Augustine]

Being baptized (by submersion of course) was not enough. One also had to be baptized by the Holy Spirit…

The implication in such a statement is that one hasn’t received the Holy Spirit in baptism, which is evidently wrong according to the Scriptures, Tradition and the Church.

 

[saylo]

The implication in such a statement is that one hasn’t received the Holy Spirit in baptism, which is evidently wrong according to the Scriptures, Tradition and the Church.

The Sacrament of Confirmation is the avenue by which we receive the Holy Spirit. Among the gifts of this sacrament is we become Christian soldiers of God and heirs of Heaven.

It also, imbues us with the wisdom to discern the spirits all the days of our lives. I truly believe this thread is a manifestation of that.

We have two segments here and the differences are foreboding.

 

[littleone]

For some these gifts mean nothing or near to nothing, to others they mean almost everything.
Give us one example of “almost everything” means.

By almost everything I mean that there are those (and please accept this as factual since you donot live near me) that there are those who have been so struck by speaking in tongs that they seem to fall in love with God every time they think of Him in any way. They seem to (from out of no where) start singing speaking humming dancing and working as though tongs were the very essence of their whole being, and they are all very strong working (in the church) catholics.
That I believe ( for them) is the power of the Holy Spirit taking over their life to that extent which is a beautiful gift some do not seem to have as yet or may not receive at all.

I wrote,
I didn’t want the gift of tongs when I joined the charismatic-renewal. I fond that too often some people would say “you know they are christian by speaking in tongs”???
Well I will never believe that however i was pushed into speaking in tongs when in a log loader some two stories high in a paper stack there was a book on speaking in tongs and I knew that our Lord was telling me that for me there was reason why He wanted me to speak in tongs ( this may not be so for others).
The church relates that tongs are the least and that we should always try to attain the gift of “love”’ but that all gifts come from God and all gifts have their place also that none should be deleted, they all have their place.

The “gift of love” is attained at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Eucharist.
**I know that "Love is a gift given WHERE ans WHEN GOD decides, and it is not a gift in it’s wholeness that is given to all people, only parts of it are given to most and the part of love that GOD wishes to give to whoever for the reason GOD wishes and for the edification of the church. **

In the Eucharist we have Jesus abiding within us and the Father and Holy Spirit as well…the Eucharist is so profound. Where one of the Trinity is the other two are present as well…they are indivisible. Jesus never commanded to have “speaking in tongues” as form to follow…He commanded to have the Mass as our pathway to Heaven.
**Speaking in tongues was meant to aid in the missionary ventures of the Early Church (ROSETTA STONE WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THAT TIME).

Who gave you this information I have not found it in the bible as not being available in this day and age, and who is she who you mention that we should take note, please**
It was meant to spread the Word in places that were virtually unknown and isolated. That was 2,000 years ago and the world has gotten much smaller and more intimate for good and for evil.
To speak in tongues at these gatherings while it is unknown what is being spoken is gibberish it has NO meaning since it is NOT understood. Besides, what are some of the “languages” being spouted?
]MMMMMM seems possible that you might have been to some of these meetings and heard others speak in tongs( or maybe not) but that the Holy Spirit has not touched you in the same way others have been touched with the gift of tongs, (as I was not at first). I also spoke about tongs as you are, but then when the spirit came on me TO RECEIVE THE HOLY gift FROM GOD then it changed my heart.

**No pope has officiated in any of these gatherings…that has to have some meaning… **
**SORRY but you are very wrong if i have proof that ONE Pope has been to ONE of the meetings. I believe you should find out the facts first, please.
You might find that in the 1970-90 there have been a Pope at certain meetings. **
No offense meant here, and Godbless.

 

[saylo]

For some these gifts mean nothing or near to nothing, to others they mean almost everything.
Give us one example of “almost everything” means.

By almost everything I mean that there are those (and please accept this as factual since you donot live near me) that there are those who have been so struck by speaking in tongs that they seem to fall in love with God every time they think of Him in any way. They seem to (from out of no where) start singing speaking humming dancing and working as though tongs were the very essence of their whole being, and they are all very strong working (in the church) catholics.
That I believe ( for them) is the power of the Holy Spirit taking over their life to that extent which is a beautiful gift some do not seem to have as yet or may not receive at all.

I wrote,
I didn’t want the gift of tongs when I joined the charismatic-renewal. I fond that too often some people would say “you know they are christian by speaking in tongs”???
Well I will never believe that however i was pushed into speaking in tongs when in a log loader some two stories high in a paper stack there was a book on speaking in tongs and I knew that our Lord was telling me that for me there was reason why He wanted me to speak in tongs ( this may not be so for others).
The church relates that tongs are the least and that we should always try to attain the gift of “love”’ but that all gifts come from God and all gifts have their place also that none should be deleted, they all have their place.

The “gift of love” is attained at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Eucharist.
**I know that "Love is a gift given WHERE ans WHEN GOD decides, and it is not a gift in it’s wholeness that is given to all people, only parts of it are given to most and the part of love that GOD wishes to give to whoever for the reason GOD wishes and for the edification of the church. **

In the Eucharist we have Jesus abiding within us and the Father and Holy Spirit as well…the Eucharist is so profound. Where one of the Trinity is the other two are present as well…they are indivisible. Jesus never commanded to have “speaking in tongues” as form to follow…He commanded to have the Mass as our pathway to Heaven.
**Speaking in tongues was meant to aid in the missionary ventures of the Early Church (ROSETTA STONE WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THAT TIME).

**No pope has officiated in any of these gatherings…that has to have some meaning… ****
**SORRY but you are very wrong if i have proof that ONE Pope has been to ONE of the meetings. I believe you should find out the facts first, please.
You might find that in the 1970-90 there have been a Pope at certain meetings. **
No offense meant here, and Godbless.

That may be a "Half Truth."No Pope ever took part or led a Charismatic gathering…EVER. Perhaps a pope ATTENDED one or two but NOT to particpate. It was to OBSERVE the goings on of these gatherings. That is his duty as the Vicar of Christ.

NO POPE EVER ENDORSED THESE GATHERINGS. There is skepticism in the appraisals of this movement. Were that not so a caveat would never had been issued. Follow the Pope…He speaks for the Church and is Christ’s visible head of the Church in ALL things in matters of Faith and morals.

 

[Dorothy]

Church Militant,

Thank you for your thoughtful and balanced posts. They give a lot of clarity.

I am grateful for all I learned through Catholic Charismatic Renewal over the years, but also recognize and acknowledge areas that need to be addressed. The renewal has been a “jump start” to many.

It has been about five years since I have attended a prayer meeting, as I believe that the Lord is now calling me to listen to Him in quiet prayer, and be helped to grow spiritually through my being a Lay Carmelite. Our union with Christ is the purpose of our existence, and when a prayer group setting begins to stifle that then it is time to move on.

I experience the gifts still operating in myself and in others. The charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit do not require a prayer group setting to operate. They are natural to a prayerful, Catholic Christian life.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[littleone]

That may be a "Half Truth."No Pope ever took part or led a Charismatic gathering…EVER. Perhaps a pope ATTENDED one or two but NOT to particpate. It was to OBSERVE the goings on of these gatherings. That is his duty as the Vicar of Christ.

NO POPE EVER ENDORSED THESE GATHERINGS. There is skepticism in the appraisals of this movement. Were that not so a caveat would never had been issued. Follow the Pope…He speaks for the Church and is Christ’s visible head of the Church in ALL things in matters of Faith and morals.

Then with this knowledge you must be a person who is highly learned about the charismatic renewal and you must have accepted the gifts of the Holy Spirit, knowing how and when they can work,which ones are of value and those that have none (there are none that have no value since all that comes from god is LOVE).
God bless you then good for you.
Godless

 

[saylo]

Then with this knowledge you must be a person who is highly learned about the charismatic renewal and you must have accepted the gifts of the Holy Spirit, knowing how and when they can work,which ones are of value and those that have none (there are none that have no value since all that comes from god is LOVE).
God bless you then good for you.
Godless

My apology…in advance…BUT…I cannot undertand how this post of yours applies to my own. Is there something I am missing? Please explain if you care to… otherwise we’ll let this slide. Maybe I need a second cup of caffeine.

 

[Joysong]

It was an excellent satire. He implied that you are wiser than the Church, having ALL the gifts of the Spirit, and can therefore determine which ones are useful and which ones you have determined the Spirit should set aside.

Littleone:

… you must have accepted the gifts of the Holy Spirit, knowing how and when they can work, which ones are of value and those that have none.

He then shares his own truth, that NONE should be set aside, since they all come from God, who is Love.

Have another cup.

 

[InLight247]

** Originally by Trishie** from another thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=265729

Comments from a Catholic Bishop…

"I am aware that some of the experiences of some people involved in the Charismatic Renewal may be more psychological than a grace from God. But when I examine my own experiences, I do not find them to be in that mode. I believe that they are truly spiritual experiences, gifts from God. And the basis for this would be the fruit flowing from this grace event from God. I am well aware that not everything that is said to be of God is of God. And maybe that’s where the psycological unconscious comes in. This is where correct discernment is needed.

But at the same time to imply that the source of the experience is psychological would deny the Word of God, the promises of Jesus, the gifts of the Spirit, and the graces given. The signs and wonders experienced in Jesus’ life, the life of the early Christians, Christians throughout the centuries even to this present time are real, not because their source is the psychological unconscious but the source is the Holy Spirit." Bishop Sam Jacobs